quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
My limited experience with Barnes TSX bullets is on red, fallow & sika deer in NZ and black bear & mule deer in Canada. All were shot with 7mm cal - 7mm08 in NZ & 7mm Rem mag in Canada

Over all experience is excellent - Most animals shot broad side heart lung. Most dropped on the spot with 2 exceptions.

The large black bear was shot with 160 gr TSX in 7mm Rem mag at 307 yards & the bear dropped at the shot & rolled around for a while & then got up & ran. I hit once on the run in the back thigh into guts. All pass through. Bear ran another 30 yards.

The other exception was a sika spiker at 15 yards. I shot it with 7mm08 in the armpit. It disappeared and I never found it. No blood trail.

All other animals dropped on the spot. Some were double shoulder heart hits.

Very good accuracy in my rifles.

A note: The old Barnes X bullets from 1995 are a different story & cannot be compared. Their accuracy was very poor (2.5 inch groups at 100 meters), pressure spikes were terrible with blown primers and case head separation on what looked like medium safe loads. Old X Bullets were nominal diameter while TSX are 0.001 inch smaller than same caliber cup & core bullets.

I'm a long ways from being a Barnes fan, but I do have .257, .277, .284, .308, .338, .375, .416 and .458 TSXs around. I just measured up some of each, and none of
them are under-sized .001".

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
For GOD's sake don't get me involved in this, enough people on here hate me as it is!

From my experiences, does not matter what caliber or bullet a person uses, things go wobbly and No One can explain WHY!

Not meaning to insult anyone's intelligence, but unless or until you have a 120/130 pound Texas White Tail buck shot at 40/45 yards thru the chest with a 250 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base, out of a .375 H&H, run close to 70 yards and when field dressed the whole top third of the heart was gone and the heart was NOT connected to ANYTHING, can a person ACTUALLY appreciate that even with top of the line PREMIUM bullets things do not go as expected!

I've had a ton of animals animals run with fatal shots with the .375 and 270 and 300 grain TSXs. After awhile it gets a little obvious that they aren't running in spite of the copper bullets, they're running because of the copper bullets.

I lost a brown bear a few years ago using a TSX. Shot him from 180 yards, slightly quartering away. His opposite front leg flew in the air and he went down. But in a split second he got up and ran into a huge alder patch. Since it was close to evening, my guide wanted to come back the next day, which we did. Unfortunately it rained the entire night and we had no blood trail at all.

I thought maybe I hit him too high. But last year in Africa I drilled a kudu from about the same range. He just stood there. My PH said to wait. So we waited, and waited, and waited. As he started to walk away my PH said to drill him again, which I did, this time a raking shot as he was sharply quartering. He went down.

The autopsy was interesting...my first shot was right through the lungs, but it was a pencil shot (.338 Win Mag shooting 225s). I was stunned. Makes me wonder if that happened to my brown bear. I did shoot a moose in AK a few months later with the same load and had no issues, and have shot quite a few big elk with it, as well as leopard, an African lion, and lots of larger African antelope. But if it fails to open 1 out of 20 times, that is too many for me.

I will be brown bear hunting in AK again this fall, but will be shooting Swift A Frames. I shoot that bullet out of my .416 and have never lost an animal. Ironically, a lot folks bad mouth the Nosler BT, which I don't hunt with anymore, but when I did, I never lost an animal. But maybe I was lucky. But then again, the biggest animal I shot with it was a zebra and gemsbok.

Frankly, I don't know why anyone would use a TSX on deer unless that bullet was super accurate. Cup and core bullets have always worked perfectly for me.

quote:

I've had a ton of animals animals run with fatal shots with the .375 and 270 and 300 grain TSXs. After awhile it gets a little obvious that they aren't running in spite of the copper bullets, they're running because of the copper bullets.

Deal is, that is the ONLY animal that I have had do that in 20+ years of using Barnes Bullets.

If a person does not want to use any Barnes Bullets, DON'T!

If a person wants to use a Barnes Bullet, GO FOR IT!!!

It all boils down to personal choice and there is NO one size fits all.

I'll sum up how I feel about Barnes bullets...if I can't get a Barnes bullet to shoot in any given rifle...I get a different rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I've had a ton of animals animals run with fatal shots with the .375 and 270 and 300 grain TSXs. After awhile it gets a little obvious that they aren't running in spite of the copper bullets, they're running because of the copper bullets.

Deal is, that is the ONLY animal that I have had do that in 20+ years of using Barnes Bullets.

And yet, you are quite adamant that the norm for
non CNS hit game is to not fall down.

quote:

And yet, you are quite adamant that the norm fornon CNS hit game is to not fall down.

No, I am not adamant about anything, I am speaking from my experience, and I am not alone concerning that.

The ONLY GUARANTEED, Fall down right there hit on an animal, ANY animal is a hit to the brain or spinal cord and that Sir is a FACT That YOU cannot dispute!

I have done gave the example several times on here of a deer traveling a long distance 60+ yards with the top third of its heart gone.

Now are you going to tell people that deer would have done the same exact thing with a brain or spine shot? I seriously doubt it!

I have seen animals of various species drop to shots other than A CNS hit, but if a brain shot was not effective, Why The Hell Do So Many People try them when shooting elephants?????

I have had animals that I shot drop on the spot with a heart shot and seen other people have animals do the same thing, but again from my apparently limited experience as a hunter, the "Norm" for heart shots on white tails seems to be a 5 yard or farther run before the animal goes down again from my limited experience the same seems to hold up for a liver shot, although for me liver hit animals seem to have ran shorter distances than those that had been heart shot.

Funny how animals seem to evolve from one area to another and hunters own individual experiences amount to nothing.

However, over the years on this site I have seen SEVERAL supposed hunters claim that the Only 100%, "Dead Right There"/"Drop In Its Tracks"/"ANCHORING SHOT", was one to the BRAIN/SPINAL CORD, The Central Nervous System, and after 45 years worth of killing stuff, I find that is erroneous!!!!!

Now, with all that Bull Shit out of the way, if you had paid any actual attention to my statement,

quote:

Deal is, that is the ONLY animal that I have had do that in 20+ years of using Barnes Bullets.

, you would have seen that I clearly stated that was the ONLY time I had an animal go that far with a Barnes bullet! Before I started using Barnes Bullets, I did have a few animals make it as far and farther with other brand bullets, but that just happens with ANY brand bullet and from my LIMITED experience, most such incidents occur to a hunter error instead of bullet failure or because of an indestructible super animal.

The incident that happened was simply a fluke, because ANY bullet that did that much damage, would have/should have dropped the animal on the spot or within a couple of yards, in this case it didn't, but it didn't sour me on Barnes Bullets.

I am still curious as to when CNS/Brain/Spine stop being effective/Guaranteed killing - stopping shots?

The number of pages of this thead is evidence enough to suggest that Barnes has some problems that need to be addressed or so it would seem..

I agee shot placement is about everything. I and my family killed a lot of deer on our ranch in the 40s with black market milsurp 30-06 ammo, ammo was scarce during WW2, Dad, uncles,friends, and family ground the tip off that 30-06 stuff, but that didn't really help much according to them.. years later I shot several deer and antelope on the ranch with that ammo as I inherited about 800 rounds, that got me thu high school..With a good shot they killed deer very well, but on rare ocassion they ran a mile, never knew which, and I was always ready for as many follow up shots as I could get in that wide open country, but they mostly did fine, it would have been a different story in the East or central Texas brush country as blood trails were all but non existent when they failed..Good blood trails and short runs when they tumbled.

As to head shots, Maybe in whitetail brush country where shots are close, but not often in the the Texas rimrock country where shots are long and normally running. Breaking a jaw was always a present danger on head shots IMO..same with neck shots, easy to miss the spine or the larger neck bones and jugular..Seen this more than a few times, fortunately all were recovered as I recall, but some long tracking jobs..About the same as Ive experienced with Barnes x "older" bullets, most worked, but some didn't..Some suggest that may have changed, dunno? but they have changed a lot of the Barnes designs, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I may never use them again however as IM sold on other brands.

All this said, I can't recall but two or three bullet failures in the last 50 years, One was a 7mm 150 gr. early Nosler Balistic Tips, they were simply too soft in the 30-06, Nosler fixed that. Every Hawk bullet I used in the 30-06 and 338 blew up while on safari, but put the animal down, my grandson killed a spike buck with a 160 Hawk with a thick jacket and it exploded in the white patch of the neck, killed the deer but left a fist sizehole with no exit at 50 yards. A Barnes x on a coyote that ran several miles and I found him by accident two or three days later, 150 gr. Barnes X out of my 30-06..Maybe one or two more?? but that's not to shabby in maybe a 50 year time span.

I will use any of todays bullets and maybe I will have a bullet failure in the future I don't know, but I do know we have the best bullets in the world or in history these days, that's about all I can ask...

Crazy horse,
Because a bullet does its job, may or may not be a legit response, a failed bullet in the heart or lungs broad side? your probably correct as it killed the deer, but what if that bullet for whatever reason was placed in the ham on a run away, perhaps wounded deer, it would not have made it to the heart lung area for a kill in many instances..Food for thought

I always pick a bullet that's expected to penetrate any animal Im hunted from stem to stern..I normally pick Nosler paretitons for that reason, but GS Customs also..barnes should also be expected to do just that.

Point is, some folks have developed a hatred for Barnes Bullets, ANY Barnes Bullet it seems.

That is fine, personal choice is the name of the game, what works for some people may, not or will not work for others, not really a big deal.

From my experience, as LIMITED as it is, a shooter/hunter HAS to have CONFIDENCE in their rifle/scope/caliber and BULLET, if that CONFIDENCE is not there then the results will not be what is desired/expected.

You mentioned head shots on deer, I do not believe in taking head shots at deer, regardless the range. I have tried two, one did not achieve the desired results but the second did, but it broke me off the habit.

My mention of Brain/Spine in my earlier response, was merely to point out that those two are the ONLY guaranteed hits that will put an animal down on the spot, if they weren't why do people hunting Elephants try their best to make a Brain Shot?

It might prove interesting if someone did a poll on here to see how many people are comfortable using Barnes Bullets and how many are not.

As for your comment about penetrating Stem To Stern, the one moose I have shot on a hunt in 1996 on Newfoundland, at 70 yards + or -, with a .340 Weatherby Mag. using 250 grain .338 Barnes "X" Flat Base bullets, my first shot entered between the right shoulder and the brisket.

The bull went back on its haunches and spun to its right and my second shot caught it behind the left shoulder.

I recovered both bullets from that animal and the first bullet went into the chest and was recovered, balled up under the hide of the left hind leg. The second bullet that went in behind the left shoulder was balled up under the hide on the animals neck about 8 to 10 inches below the animal jaw bone.

He covered maybe 20 yards before going down.

These matches get really old, all of us have had our own experiences, and it gets really tiring when people question another persons amount or lack of actual experience.

I really hate to say it, but it really seems like the attitude that rules the AR Cesspool is bleeding over into other topic areas.

I for one, having used Barnes Bullets for 20 years or so, are happy with the results they give, just be THANKFUL that we have a variety of brands to choose from.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Let's see, to recover a bullet the animal has to be dead!

If the animal is dead, wasn't that the job the bullet was sent to do??????????

No, not necessarily. The second bullet may have done the job.

quote:

No, not necessarily. The second bullet may have done the job.

Yes, that is true, been there done that/seen that. But to recover a bullet, the First Ingredient that has to be present is a Dead Animal isn't it????????

Also is it a GUARANTEE, that the initial hit was NOT going to cause the animals death?

Please correct me, SOMEONE/ANYONE, but to ACTUALLY/FACTUALLY know how a bullet performed on an animal, Do You NOT have to have a dead animal on the ground to examine?


Everyone gets the POINT, some individuals Do Not like Barnes Bullets! GOOD FOR THEM, that is the beauty of living in a country where we all have CHOICES and can find what we as individuals like best.

But for those misguided/ignorant/hopeless individuals that do like Barnes Bullets, that are satisfied with the performance we get from them. We have our reasons for liking them, choosing them over other bullets and your not going to change our minds!

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, just stating that I have not experienced the results that some claim they have experienced.

I use Barnes for several reasons, and have been doing so for 20+ years and do not plan on changing. I went to Barnes for the same reason those that don't like Barnes use other brands, I did not like the performance I was getting from those other brands and the Barnes Bullets do the job I want done.

Use whatever brand bullet you want, it is your business, just remember that applies to EVERYONE, including us pitiful creatures that swear by Barnes instead of At Them.

Sometimes it's hard to explain why they run. This oryx dropped at the shot but then got up and ran about another 150 yards before collapsing again. 165gn TTSX at 284 yds from my .300WM at an MV of 3166 FPS. You can see the entry wound. Animal was side on and shot angled toward the opposite shoulder. Not an instant kill but have seen similar from lead core projectiles on numerous occasions so not about to condemn the TTSX. It performed well on all the other game taken during our safari.

It is a simple concept that any of us that have spent anytime hunting and shooting game should understand, things sometimes simply go wobbly, and there is no real understanding why.

It is just the way it is, and can and does happen regardless of the brand of bullet or the caliber of the gun used.

Just be Thankful that we have the ability to pick and choose.

So imagine a .338 bullet--
225 grains that retains 98%+ unless hitting major bones, and maybe even then
light enough to fly 2800-2900fps in a WinMag
consistent deep penetration, frequently exiting from large bodied animals
guaranteed penetration up close
a BC over .500 to put it on target with minimum drop or winddrift out to 400-500 yards
and deliver maximum energy
put a plastic tip on it to almost guarantee rapid expansion in light animals,
and protect it in a magazine (though I long ago developed a habit of always putting a new round of any construction in a chamber for an undamaged tip on a possible long first shot)--

I compare that bullet above to my experiences with the 338 250NP in the 80's.
The NP travelled a tad slower (still about 2700fps from drop observations without a chronological),
typically blew its nose,
penetrated well,
reasonably good BC,
in short,
it functioned flawlessly and did everything called upon to do, buffalo, too.
I really loved that 250gn NP.
Yet today I load up with 225gn TTSX. The bullet described above.

I have 100% confidence in the 225gnTTSX like I did with the 250gnNP. I've seen mysteries, like non-CNS shots drop at the shot with the TTSX's and have a relatively small EXIT wound and massive internal damage. I don't fully understand that. But it is an absolutely great hunting bullet. So is the NP.

These days I like to keep my 100-yard sight-ins to 2.0" so that 300 yards is -6" - -7" and 400 yards is -19"- -20". In the 80's I liked to aim low and use the +4" 200 yard zero that Ray mentioned. Close shots, under 200 yards are the most frequent and often give a shorter time for thinking but I no longer like to think about +4"-+5" mid-range highs under time pressure. It's easier to think about trajectories and drop when the animal is 250-300 yards off and longer.

Every year or so I tinker with a new bullet, but the 250gn NP was my old standard (I liked Keith's favorite 275gn Speer, too), and the 225gn TTSX is my newer standard. Northfork, GSC, CEB Lazers, Accubonds, etc., are all great bullets, but I don't have the hunting experience with them to develop more than 99% confidence.

Ray…as usual…excellent, common sense summary based on actual events and findings with no prejudice either way. Thanks.

Ch…there’s another group of people beyond the for or against groups on Barnes. I’m referring to the third group, folks like myself who seek advice from you, Ray and those in this thread…stating actual field results, not just opinions…so we in this group can make a more informed decision on what bullet to choose.

Based on what I’ve gathered from everyone here, I’ve made my decision. A decision I’m only now able to make thanks to the good folks on this Forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
For GOD's sake don't get me involved in this, enough people on here hate me as it is!

From my experiences, does not matter what caliber or bullet a person uses, things go wobbly and No One can explain WHY!

Not meaning to insult anyone's intelligence, but unless or until you have a 120/130 pound Texas White Tail buck shot at 40/45 yards thru the chest with a 250 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base, out of a .375 H&H, run close to 70 yards and when field dressed the whole top third of the heart was gone and the heart was NOT connected to ANYTHING, can a person ACTUALLY appreciate that even with top of the line PREMIUM bullets things do not go as expected!

I've had a ton of animals animals run with fatal shots with the .375 and 270 and 300 grain TSXs. After awhile it gets a little obvious that they aren't running in spite of the copper bullets, they're running because of the copper bullets.

Its NOT, BECAUSE of the Copper bullets . I've had Sitka Blacktails run when hit with bullets from probably every manufacturer in most calibers I've shot deer with. Hornady , Speer, Swift, Barnes, Trophy Bonded, Winchester, Remington and probably some I don't remember.
It has always been my experience that most double lunged deer run off . Usually 20-50 yards . Tho I have had them run a hundred or a little more. And Thats when shot with 308s, 30/06, 338,358, 375, 416 and 458 . I would expect similar results from my 6.5 .
Unless someone wants to always ruin meat by hitting the shoulder, spine or hips. Consistently knocking a deer down is Not guaranteed.
Unlike some others, I Never had Any problems with the original X bullets. Tho there are some instances where a deer ran up to 100 yards. Even with the top of their front leg bone with the ball laying on the muskeg and the heart blown to bits when shot at 100 wish yards with a 200 gr X bullet with a MV over 2900 fps. Had I used a different brand of bullet on that shot there is absolutely No guarantee that buck would have dropped 1 foot sooner than it did.

quote:

Ch…there’s another group of people beyond the for or against groups on Barnes. I’m referring to the third group, folks like myself who seek advice from you, Ray and those in this thread…stating actual field results, not just opinions…so we in this group can make a more informed decision on what bullet to choose.

Just a question, how many times had you used a Barnes Bullet on an animal prior to these two shots?

I am not being offensive here, just trying to place some parameters on the issue.

I am not qualified to be included in the same group as Mr. Atkinson, but I believe that he will admit that his opinions are based on his experiences, in fact I do not believe that ANY of us that have hunted to any extent at all, will dispute that concept. All of us are the Sum of OUR Experiences.

Like every other aspect of hunting, from the choice of firearm/scope etc. etc. etc. including type/brand of bullet, each of us have our own preferences, based on our experiences.

From my personal experience, people either love or hate Barnes Bullets, there does not seem to be ANY middle ground.

In the history and development of monometal HP bullets we certainly saw and experienced sporadic examples of bullets not expanding and in some instances partially expanding or asymmetrically losing part of the nose as a petal. Early editions of the Barnes bullets was no exception to this.

Many of the "copy cat" bullets that followed Barnes went through the same "failure" phase and as result of this some novel manufacturing and design solutions were sought by many to counter the problem. The simplest and most logical solution was to make the aperture of the HP large enough so tip force could initiate the expansion.

From a more "professional" ( if you wish) perspective those who designed munitions for policing work wrestled with the same problem from having bullets that would act as rapidly expanding , shallow penetration bullets when entering the human body but failing to open and expand when fired into heavy clothing or worse that stray bullets hitting building walls made of fibre material would not expand and then function as mono solids penetrate walls possibly hitting innocent bystanders behind those walls.

This problem in itself then a motivation to study the factors and mechanics of projectile deformation and expansion when encountering targets of varying material type. As a simple matter of engineering mechanics then being able to work out and plan on manufacturing of projectiles with specific penetration characteristics.

On a larger scale perhaps having munitions and penetrators capable of penetrating armour and large multiple barriers of concrete.... same principles.

As to the current and more modern renditions of the Barnes bullet for the most they behave and function as intended when fired within their intended velocity window of operation.

Certainly sporadic but now very infrequent examples can be found where expansion was not as it was intended however I venture that a bad shot again for the most is due to bad bullet placement and has nothing to do with failed bullet behaviour !

quote:

Certainly sporadic but now very infrequent examples can be found where expansion was not as it was intended however I venture that a bad shot again for the most is due to bad bullet placement and has nothing to do with failed bullet behaviour !

Plus One.

416Tarzan, You fairly accurately described my wife's rifle/bullet/ zero. Her's.... 225TTSXs @ 2950 fps, 300 yrd. zero. We started with the early X Bullet around '95, and have progressed to the TTSX. She has the utmost confidence in the rifle and load! memtb

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Ch…there’s another group of people beyond the for or against groups on Barnes. I’m referring to the third group, folks like myself who seek advice from you, Ray and those in this thread…stating actual field results, not just opinions…so we in this group can make a more informed decision on what bullet to choose.

Just a question, how many times had you used a Barnes Bullet on an animal prior to these two shots?

I am not being offensive here, just trying to place some parameters on the issue.

I am not qualified to be included in the same group as Mr. Atkinson, but I believe that he will admit that his opinions are based on his experiences, in fact I do not believe that ANY of us that have hunted to any extent at all, will dispute that concept. All of us are the Sum of OUR Experiences.

Like every other aspect of hunting, from the choice of firearm/scope etc. etc. etc. including type/brand of bullet, each of us have our own preferences, based on our experiences.

From my personal experience, people either love or hate Barnes Bullets, there does not seem to be ANY middle ground.

Not offended Ch. The answer to your question is those are the only 2 times I used a Barnes and both were the same bullet. And why I posted my question because I didn't know the answer.

Thank You.

quote:

Broadside shots were made from a stand, solid hold, crosshairs tucked behind the elbow. That’s where both bullets went. Both deer exited and vanished with no signs of a hit.

Here's a thought

you have a fast gun and have it sighted for maximum distance?

you are elevated, shooting down, so your entry wound is high.
you are shooting an animal located at near the apex of your trajectory, so the bullet will hit HIGH, so with the crosshairs tucked behind the elbow, you hit the animal just below the scapula, exiting mid/upper ribcage..... so no wonder there was no blood trail... animal was bleeding into the cavity, no where for blood to leave.

at that impact speed, there for sure would be trauma, and deer WOULD be bleeding out. My guess is the deer died about 1-2 minutes after the hit, and you just didn't look far enough.

just my thoughts, as I have done the same thing, but was able to watch the deer fall down at the far end of the field... high hit, small exit wound, soupy lungs, and ZERO blood trail

I just got back from Namibia on a cull trip and shot 61 wildebeest/gemsbok. I used and cataloged 8 different bullets. All of the bullets killed the game, but some did it better than others. The 180 grain Swift Scirocco had 15 animals shot and 15 pass thrus with the highest rate of terminal shock. Swift A-frame 16 pass thrus but less terminal shock and longer dying run. Norma Oryx had 10 complete pass thrus on gemsbok and did a great job. Nosler Partition also worked well but did not have the terminal shock that the Scirocco had. Woodleigh killed 3 wildes but I was not impressed. I was using the 240 Woodleigh and don't think I generated enough speed to get max expansion. I did shoot one wilde in chest and we found the bullet lodged against the skin of the rear ham. Sierra 180 grain Pro Hunter killed very well. Broadside lung shots exited, but shoulder or quartering did not. Speer 180 grain round nose also killed but did not exit and had cup/core separation. The Barnes TTSX had the longest tracking. Some wildebeest went down quickly, but two had what appeared to be .308 holes going in and out. One ran almost a mile. In conclusion, any of the bullets that I used did the job.

I like the behind the shoulder shot on edible game, I like to kill quickly as much as the next guy but I also like to kill cleanly and my family and I eat what we shoot except the horns, hide and hair..Neck and head shots are famous for quick kills, but they wound as much game as any shot in that if your off an inch, and that ain't much, you break a jaw, shoot thru the nose, knock out teeth, and never recover the animal as a rule..Ive noticed many hunters say I missed, and I had to tell them they hit them, and that is always a hard tracking job and sometimes without success. Spine shots the same, so many folks don't know whrere the spine is to start with and a hit over the lungs and under the spine andn backbone is a wounding shot in many occasions unless you tip a short rib and stun them..Just some thoughts, the rest is up to the shooter to conclude,

How much meat is there on a mature White Tail/Mule Deer or Elk?

With a quality bullet, how much meat will ACTUALLY be wasted?

Having been involved in such situations, we are looking at the loss, with a premium bullet, of 5 to 7 pounds of meat.

Is that equitable to the loss of the entire carcass? Which is more important, losing a few pounds of meat with a shoulder shot, or losing the entire animal because the hunter is worried about losing those few pounds of meat from a shoulder shot?????????

I have a pretty good idea what works well on our UK deer. Given the majority are shot for sale shots are conventional angles on stationary deer.

From 243 to 30-06 I like standard bullets, ballistic tips and partitions ie quite fast opening. Even though I have a dog for blood trailing it's rare I need her.

I've use a few Barnes - 308 130gr TSX and 308 168gr TTSX. They worked but not with the performance I liked.

Of the three reds I shot with the 130gr TSX all three were within 100yards. One spike fell down to a heart/chest shot then got up and ran a short way. This is a not a normal reaction (getting back up) and not one I've had with standard bullets.

The 168gr TTSX I used out of short bareled 308 on moose. Moose 1 was shot at 100yards and ran and fell in classic way - no problems - wound track and holes looked quite small.

Moose 2 was shot one lung, liver and gut (quartering on a bit more than I thought) still alive enough to get up and walk 30 minutes later - not great placement but a partition would have done better I'm sure

Moose 3 calf - no problem

Moose 4 spike bull - chest shot - stayed up a bit longer than I liked at which point I panicked and filled it full of holes such that no conclusions could be drawn.

My view - I don't really like them, fully realise my sample size is too small to be meaningful but I'll not be buying any again.

TSX and TTSX and GMX and others are not Full Metal Jacket and are not illegal in western states! In fact they may be the only bullets that are legal in some soon. Speed is their friend. Keep impact velocities over 2,000fps and life is grand!Drop below that and expect poor expansion. Small exit holes mean nothing. A .30cal bullet expanded 2x equals a .60 hole...the size of you pinky figure. Big exit holes mean the hide ripped...often associated with fragmenting bullets. The original X bullets were plagued with problems...these are nothing like original X bullets. If you want bang flops....you are likely better of using bullets that fragment! Mono metals can cause lots of meat damage too...not from fragmenting but from the speed at which they pass through meat. The only advantage is that you won't be picking chunks of bullet of your meat.

Back in the mid-90's I got some Barnes-X bullets for a 270 in Africa. 130 grains. The first three shots and first three animals were as follows.
1. A warthog at 180 yards across a grass 'football field' opening within tall grasses near a river. The warthog dropped at the shot. Later, on inspection, the bullet did not appear to touch the spine (front, high part of heart in front quartering shot) even though the animal dropped like it was spine-shot.
2. A second warthog was shot next to the first warthog just described in #1. There were two warthogs grazing together in that open grass area. After the first warthog simply collapsed on the ground, the second warthog ran a little circle and came back to where his buddy was lying. So I shot it, too. The animal jumped in the air and almost did a backflip, coming down to the ground and not moving. On inspection, it was a heart shot. So two shots, two animals, and very impressive results.
3. Later, maybe three miles inland from the area of the two warthogs, a bushbuck was taken at 175 yards while it was walking slowly away at a 3/4 angle. The animal took a couple of steps and collapsed, dead. Again, very impressive results.
4. Finally, as an anecdote to that hunt, we were crossing a large sand island with a flock of spur-wing geese on the other end, about 300-400 yards away. I walked toward them, at an angle, not directly, in the shimmering mirage. At about 200 yards there seemed to be movement increasing so I dropped into a low spot in the sand. There was a very old tom sitting among the geese. I lined up on him and waited until a second goose stepped behind him in line with the shot. I squeezed. The first tom changed position of sitting, dead, and the second goose took off and crash landed in 50 yards. Two geese, 1 130grain X bullet in .277.

So I have been a fan of Barnes bullets to this day, especially with the TTSX and TSX lines. To me, the most important characteristics of a bullet are accuracy and guaranteed penetration. I always ensure the first point in any caliber that I load. And I have utmost confidence in the second point, far and away more confidence than with cup and core bullets and even more confidence than with my old mainstays, the Nosler partition. The Barnes bullets work very very well and belong to the top line of premium bullets. Yes, I have seen occasional 'small exit holes' in animals that drop dead right there. Perhaps the sharp petals allow the bullet to cut a smaller exit, or perhaps some of the high-velocity shots shed their petals in massive internal damage and the blunt, penetrating core producing a smallish exit hole. I don't know the answer, but I know that the bullets work very well.

As a final testimony, let me post the picture of an exit shot on a little tiny antelope, an oribi, about 35 pounds. The rifle was a .416Rigby, the load was a 350 grain TSX, and the shot was just about exactly 200 yards (it may have been 202). Would a .416" TSX bullet open up on such a small animal? The bullet literally blew the heart out of the animal and left a huge gaping hole. See below.


The entry hole is still visible inside the left, front leg, in the slightly dried, smoked, skinned animal:

We left the animal whole in order to give it to a mission compound on our return trip, who had helped us with a car repair on the way to the hunting area.

Again, my experience with the Barnes bullets has been absolutely sterling.

PS: back in the 80's I used some Barnes originals in .338", 300 grain roundnose softs. They performed admirably but I only used them on shorter shots (under 100yards) like warthogs around a waterhole. They, too, liked to drop them dead right there, without a spine shot. Go figure. Those were the days that Speer also made an excellent .338" 275 grain soft with a bit better BC than the Barnes 300grain .338. The 250gn .338" NP was our bread-and-butter bullet in those days. (Or should I say 'meat on the table'?) We had a bunch of excellent bullets even before the fantastic .338" 225 TTSX.

Not much edible meat on a deers shoulders, but an elk, moose etc. there is plenty to be concerned about..On occasion however, mostly depending or bullet or caliber or both that meat damage on a deer can go up the neck and into the backstraps..High velocity and/or bullet construction is the main villain. Im agin it!

Crazyhorse,
I can't see much coorelation between head shooting or shoulder shooting an elephant and a deer..Its simply not a parrell..Ive seen elephant shoulder shot go miles, its "almost" imparitive to head shoot an elephant under most conditions.. I think you would have to compare a 20 mm on an elephant to a 30-06 on a deer for a comparison to be proper. I THANK THATS RIGHT?????

Ray,
You are supposed to comment how nicely a 40 cal takes oribi.

The comparison I was pointing at, is that brain shots on Elephants are a lot more common than brain shots on deer, just as shoulder shots are more common for deer than for elephant.

I've got a deer cull coming up with various bullets including TTSX, Accubonds and Scirocos, and boring NBTs to compare them to. All will get all the speed that anyone could ever ask for. Anyone care to make their predictions or place their bets on what hits the ground fastest or runs the farthest?

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I've got a deer cull coming up with various bullets including TTSX, Accubonds and Scirocos, and boring NBTs to compare them to. All will get all the speed that anyone could ever ask for. Anyone care to make their predictions or place their bets on what hits the ground fastest or runs the farthest?

What species of deer and where? Those details will make a difference

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I've got a deer cull coming up with various bullets including TTSX, Accubonds and Scirocos, and boring NBTs to compare them to. All will get all the speed that anyone could ever ask for. Anyone care to make their predictions or place their bets on what hits the ground fastest or runs the farthest?

It's impossible to know, given that you won't hit them in the exact same place every time. Theoretically, if you could (not including head shots, etc, just normal hunting kill shots) I'm guessing the fastest killer will be the NBT, AB, Scirroco, then TTSX.

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I've got a deer cull coming up with various bullets including TTSX, Accubonds and Scirocos, and boring NBTs to compare them to. All will get all the speed that anyone could ever ask for. Anyone care to make their predictions or place their bets on what hits the ground fastest or runs the farthest?

What species of deer and where? Those details will make a difference

South Australia, fallows mostly. There are others, up to reds and sambar, but the management plan is to hammer up the fallows.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I've got a deer cull coming up with various bullets including TTSX, Accubonds and Scirocos, and boring NBTs to compare them to. All will get all the speed that anyone could ever ask for. Anyone care to make their predictions or place their bets on what hits the ground fastest or runs the farthest?

It's impossible to know, given that you won't hit them in the exact same place every time. Theoretically, if you could (not including head shots, etc, just normal hunting kill shots) I'm guessing the fastest killer will be the NBT, AB, Scirroco, then TTSX.

That's the order I'm predicting as well. .257 Weatherby if you're interested.

Over the years, I have shot apx. 100 deer with my .270 wsm. No longer use Barnes tts, as I get tried of having to follow them up in the thick brush. Switched to NBT and Hornady ldx and have noticed a remarkable difference.