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| One of Us |
You have just been the high bidder at $.01 on a centerfire rifle worth $400 and there was no reserve on it. Do you actually think the seller should ship it to you for one penny? Do you actually think you can find a lawyer to go after him? We've read your opinions about the seller now lets hear your opinions about the buyer! Is he ethically right in assuming he has purchased a rifle for one penny? | ||
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I think so! I've made that bid several times to get the bidding going on GB. Never came anywhere close to getting anything for that bid, but I would have been PO'd if a seller backed out when the bidding stopped for a time. No guts, no glory. If you're not willing to stand by your price don't put the gun on an auction. No Reserve means just that; the gun goes to the highest bidder no matter the bid. I'm a General Contractor; if I give someone a price I have to stand by that price, no matter what the price of materials and labor do. You screw up, you eat it! | |||
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Did the seller screw up? Yes Should the buyer get a "free" gun? No The buyer should not threaten a lawyer and make a huge issue out of it. S#!T happens. The buyer needs to get on with his life. I have started auctions at $0.99 no reserve on GB, and always let the market decide the value. I honestly think the seller hit the panic button a little early on this one. Maybe that's what he get's for not listing it in the AR classifieds.  ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
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So, lets say someone lists a gun worth $400 and some poorly informed person buys it at auction for $1,000. The buyer then finds out he has grossly over paid. Is it ethical for the buyer to back out of the transaction? Should the buyer be sued? Should the buyer get negative feedback? | |||
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This is the most interesting post of the subject so far.....good point..... However.....why did anyone bid $1,000 unless the bid was run up that far....or in other words others were bidding $500, $600, $700.etc..... One man alone didn't run it up that far.....and this means it was worth the price. Great point.....but the dots don't connect. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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If I legally won the auction for a penny I expect the deal to be honored. I have 292 feedbacks on eBay with 100% airgun_1 I have A+44 on Gunbroker airgun_1 I once listed a fairly valuable gun part with my standard $5.00 minimum bid and no Reserve. I can't recall what it was but remember that similar items had been bringing big bucks; it was a nice part to keep around but the lure of the going rate led me to list it. A guy won it for $5.00. He contacted me and said he did not try to win that at $5.00 and wanted to pay me at least what his auto-bid limit was. I thanked him but sold him the part for $5.00 I could have called a friend to shill bid, but I have a bit of integrity. Most gun people are good people, but there are exceptions. I knew a lady whose husband passed on and left her with quite a large gun collection, mostly old with a capital O Winchester lever guns. One dealer offered her $25,000 for them @ $100 a piece because they were pretty old. My friend sold them for her on consignment and grossed her $900,000.00. Ethics and crooks. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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You have to consider the circumstances too. The auction was closed within 24 hours of it starting. There were still 6 days left. It is obvious from this that there was a listing mistake, that was recognized only after one bid. If it had been the last day or last few hours of the auction, then yes, it would appear the seller was trying to bail out of a loss. The auction would not have ended at .01 and there is a possibility it could have even gone higher than what the seller would have listed a flat price at elsewhere. What if someone lists a gun, and a few days later discovers something wrong with it, or a part or manual or something missing? The auction would have to be closed or modified, and it certainly couldn't be sold to the current bidder if the condition was not as advertised. | |||
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I frequently buy on a European auction website. There have been a few auctions where my (opening) bid of less than a dollar for a valuable item has remained the opening bid. I felt badly for the seller each time that happened, and e-mailed an offer to cancel my bid. Only once did the seller refuse to cancel (item was worth only a few dollars). Other times they were very grateful to hear that from me, and we cancelled my bid. | |||
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Now here's real ethics in action.....I salute you! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Well, I guess there would have to be a shill bidder or perhaps more than one poorly informed person. | |||
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Both of these are extremely reasonable. If the question came up and I was the bidder, AND THE AUCTION WENT TO THE END, I would have sent an email or called and offered to cancel my bid. I have sent such emails several times when items went for much less than I expected to pay as a fair price. Unlike conifer, no one wanted me to cancel my bid and accepted the posted bid even though I explained my auto-bid was higher. Let me be clear about my problem with this particular auction in plain speak. This was NOT an obvious MISTAKE on the part of the seller, as he would like everyone to believe. If it was, he would have emailed the bidder before he cancelled the auction. It was a lack of intestinal fortitude, guts and backbone. It was a "screw this and everyone involved" moment that, to me, shows a major character flaw. He didn't even have the guts to let it take it's course. Maybe I have just seen too much of it before. The guys you don't want in the fox hole with you because when the s*&t hits the fan, or might, they are gone. While I know it is not to that extreme, or same life or death situation, the princlple is the same...might go bad, get out of here... Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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yes, i would .. i might would think there's something wrong with the deal, but if I won it for 1¢, i'd expect the seller to not backout and sell it .. and if the seller DIDN'T, i wouldn't bother with a lawyer, I'd call/email the auction house, and have satisfaction on the matter. Non-delivery is exactly equal to non-payment. Don't EVER offer a price you aren't willing to take opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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+1 Having personally done business with Mr. conifer...he is exactly this kind of fellow.  My point in all of this is that if both the seller and the buyer were at fault and both needed to learn from the incident. Nothing more. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No, the buyer was not at fault. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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When he threatened with a lawyer...in my mind...he became at fault!!! Until then he wasn't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You've never had a moment like that, Larry? You are missing out. It feels almost as great as a good dump, after a time of constipation. The "screw this and everyone involved" and a good dump takes both metaphorical and real intestinal fortitude. I think a guy who hasn't had one or more of those moments, and/or isn't willing to admit it or face his mistakes, or perhaps even situational reality, and isn't telling it all. Second-guessing judgmental from the side-lines, with a self-righetous attitude, to me represents several character flaws. "Maybe I have just seen too much of it before." Some people can't get past their ego. There are all kinds of scum and scammers, something-for-nothing kinds of people, from penny lurkers on auction sites, to bus lurkers who jump on board in the event of a fender bender to claim false injury, to the ACORN bunch. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I do not feel the buyer was at fault at all. I too would be highly upset if I was the Buyer. I would not just drop it and move on. I just like Jeffeoso said, would get satisfaction from the auction house. There are lots of times I see something that I really don't need and put a low bid and hope for the best. Sometimes you win them, most times not. If it is something I really want, I put a healthy auto-bid. What I always say is heck I can get money anywhere, but try to find a long out of production gun or part. I bid accordingly nin those circumstances. Auctions are gambling for the buyer and seller, you win some and you lose some. They have Reserves or minimum bids to help out in the loss department for the seller, but cost more upfront and turn away a lot of bidders. I let the market price prevail and most of the time you end up doing very well. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Well, what's in your mind is yours, but if the buyer had sued, he likely would have won. He was well within his rights. The seller fucked up and doesn't want to take responsibility for his fuck up. He will probably get away with it, but that doesn't in any way make the buyer wrong. It was an auction, the buyer bid. What's wrong with that? The seller, who presumably is an adult of sound mind, who can read, CHOSE to use a form of auction that the buyer bid in. BTW, to be clear, I wouldn't take the buyer's attitude or position, but that doesn't make him wrong, he's not. OTOH if I was the seller I wouldn't have set up the auction that way, but if I did, I'd live with the results, one penny or whatever. I value my word much more than $500. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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KB, no I don't consider breaking my word and taking a dump on the same plane. YMMV, obvisously. And no, integrity does not equate to an inflated ego either, but lack of it does. Gatogordo, I agree with you completely. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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How does one make the leap that equates refusing to let somone take advantage and essentially steal a valuable rifle for a penny, to breaking one's word? What's one's word got to do with it? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I won an auction for a Starrett instrument on eBay; I neglected to note the amount for shipping, which was steep to say the least. I emailed the seller and complained about the high shipping rate, the seller lowered the amount. Then I emailed the seller and said I would pay the full price on the shipping- it's my responsibility to assess these things prior to bidding; the seller was within the rules. So tough shit for me, and a lesson learned the hard way. | |||
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You may have let your false pride get in the way of logic. Shipping charges figured wrong, or by the wrong means happens all the time, with items coming from South to Alaska. It's a regular conversation to discuss with the seller to please check into other carriers besides UPS, FEDX, and use USPS flat rate if possible. It has nothing to do with pride, ego, mistake, honor, ethics. It's simple courtesy, and business dealings, and usually not a problem to work out. However, a special instrument may have required special handling, and if so, and as you say you didn't consider that in advance, then I can understand how it worked out as you described. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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No, the seller made it plain what the shipping was as I wrote above; it's my responsibility to pay attention to that. I didn't. Playing by the rules set down is one's word. I don't know if I'd call false pride what you call it. It seems you're fishing around for the answer you want. | |||
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If you don't understand then you just don't understand how some of us value the concept of "saying what we'll do and doing what we say." YOU, the seller, CHOSE to start the auction at one cent with no reserve. YOU, the seller, had ample opportunity AND the obligation to read ALL the terms of that type of auction on Gunbroker before you started it. Either you didn't or you chose to ignore them when you hit the panic button SIX frigging days before the auction was due to end. I repeat, the buyer didn't do anything wrong, you did. He was legitimately bidding in an auction YOU set up in that manner. He wasn't "taking advantage", he was participating in an auction ACCORDING TO THE TERMS you had agreed to when you started the auction. To be clear, the "word" part of it is you CHOSE the form of auction to sell the rifle to the highest bidder with a starting price of one cent. You did not do what you said you'd do. That's where the "word" part comes in. All you're doing is trying to find some people who'll agree with your actions and that it was the mean old bidder who is the bad guy. I'm not one of them. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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| Moderator |
you said you would sell it for a price .. it was met . there was NO taking advantage of anything. you changed your mind .. the only person breaking the terms, well, aint the buyer opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I emphatically said NO to selling it for a penny. It couldn't have been clearer - in the end. There was most certainly an attempt by the buyer to take advantage. It is true that the buyer didn't break the terms, defined by the rigid intrepretation of the situation. One's word implys intent - does it not? In this case there was no intent to sell for a penny. Although not made clear up front, it was surely made clear, by somewhat awkward means and by breaking a rule. Nonetheless made clear, and thus reconciling word with intent, in my view. Rationalizing? Perhaps, but still it is what it is, and resulted in no financial gain or loss or harm to either party. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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hey im of such integrety that when i bid a pennyhoping to get something for nothing,oh look i won my bid but now k.b. tells me he cut the bid short and dosnt want to sell me the rifle for a penny because it was destroyed in a housefire , but im so honest since the bid went thru now its my rifle and im still going topay the 50 bucks ups an another 50 ffl fee im keeping my word i should have insured it . or wait a minute maybe k.b.should run out an get me a replacement rifle with his homeowner insurance, what a delima, heres one that will get at least 50% of the mr integretys statistaclly did the preacher stutter when he said "till death do us part" obvoiusly you are alive or you wouldnt be on this forum, is she still alive too If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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This is similar to airlines accidentally posting very cheap airfares and then refusing to honor them. I am pretty sure the courts have ruled they do not have to honor a price that is a mistake. | |||
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KB, let's turn this around ..if you had wanted 500 for it, and someone bid 5,000 and it ran up that high, would you offer to refund the 4500 difference? i didn't think so. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Here we go with the F-word again. You ARE just like the bidder! And for the record sir...Why...if you did not think the bidder was misbehaving...wouldn't you act just like him??? Hmmmmmmm!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I like the word fuck, if offends your tender sensibilities, put me on ignore. As Buddy Hackett told a joke to a bunch of Baptists in his audience years ago at a show in Las Vegas. I was taking a break from working at the Blackjack tables. He singled out a nice looking wifely type and asked her: "Would you rather use the word "fuck" or "shit"? Embarrassed, she finally stammered out, "The second one." Hackett replied, "Well, I like "fuck" better. After all, you don't want to roll over in the middle of the night and say "Let's shit" to your wife." I've liked fuck ever since. AS I ALREADY SAID, I wouldn't do the same as the buyer because I don't want to take advantage of someone's misfortune. BUT that doesn't make him wrong, just less empathetic than me. I also wouldn't buy a thousand dollar(or whatever figure) gun from a widow for much less than it's worth, even if she had it priced at that figure. It offends my sense of honor, just like not doing what someone agrees to do (as in the GB auction) does. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I sorta like the F word too. It can be used in language in so many ways. It's especially useful for those who are language challanged, or moments where words escape you, or are simply insufficient. As I recall, that's the word that came to mind, if not said, when I closed the auction early, which caused the auction to show as sold rather than closed, and the scammer emailed me right away to make shipping arrangments. I promptly informed him, without using the F word, that he had mistakenly assumed that we had an agreement. Of course he continued with his dream, that we had an agreement, even though I persisted that we did not. So, not only did he want to believe that we agreed on the sale of the rifle for a penny, but he believed somehow that agreement is a one-sided thing. If he says that we agree, then whatever I say doesn't matter, even though it obviously takes two to agree. One of my mother's best and favorite sayings to us children was "it takes two to argue". It's kinda hard to argue with electronic software, and a guy intent on thieft. It boils down to sometimes agreement can't be reached between parties, so one has to do what he feels is right, which is what I did. I don't see it as my honor, intregity or ethics being at stake in this. Just because GB software, the scammer or you sir saying or pretending it's so, doesn't make it so, until I say so. I am reserving the right to have the final say in this, agreed or disagreed. In his case, right had nothing to do with it, except as pretense. His actions were coming from what he thought (dreamed) he could get away with. Just like in the widow's estate sale example you gave, I don't think empathy had anything to do with this. I think the word greed is appropriate to describe his motive. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Hence the fact that I put you in exactly same category as the fellow who tried to cheat that fellow out of his rifle. It really does not offend me sir...but there are kids who read these forums. Vulgarity is not needed to express one's views. And...I don't put anyone on ignore so that I can point out there inconsistencies when they express them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Empathy is a viture...just like right & wrong!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Perhaps you may choose to teach your kids the proper use of the F-word. Me...I choose to put my boot between the 2 gluteus maximus muscles if I hear them use it. But heck...I wouldn't ask a man to sell me a $500 rifle for a penny either...so what do I know??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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We all gotta have something to get indignant about - eh? Think about this: What's empathy, honor, integtity, ethics, word, and promises to a Psychopath? I say they are tools in a vast tool box, for the manipulation of people who abide and cherish those and other virtues. It could be that to understand what I said, one would have to be a Psychopath or have suffered through dealing with one, or have been married to one. In the latter case, the preacher damn sure stuttered at my wedding, the significance of which I didn't catch at the time. I now know the true meaning of the term "the f***ing you get, for the f***ing you got". Nonetheless, virtues are still important, yet they take on new significance, given the whole context in which they are applied. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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You bid a penny on a no reserve auction and "win", you buy the rifle. If you list a rifle with no reserve and someone bids a penny he "wins". No excuses either way. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Are you making no distinction between a penny auction that runs its course, and one that was closed early? Is closing early just an excuse? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yes. 100% right. Some years ago at an public auction in a saleroom here in England I bought Smith & Wesson 32 Military and Police for the equivalent of 85 US Dollars. What would you do? Tell the auctioneer it was worth 2000 US Dollars and offer to pay that for it? Of course not. It's a public auction with no reserve and it makes the price that the bidders on that lot were prepared to pay. I had a friend who at the same auction, at a later date, bought a 38 Webley Mark IV with a sideplate for the equivalent of 120 US Dollars. When he went to pay a week or so later the auctioneer tried to say he wouldn't sell it as he, the auctioneer, had then been told what it was worth. My friend threatened to sue him. The auctioneer backed down and let him have the gun. It was one of only six that Webley made for the British Army trials in the 1920s so like, say in US, one of the 45 ACP Luger pistols from the US Army trials. If, at the end of the day, you don't put a reserve then tough luck. The "other issue" is that I understand that Gun Broker, like eBay, charges a "reserve fee"? So if you aren't prepared to pay that then be prepared to suffer the consequences. So if the lister has chosen not to pay that then surely it is a indication that the lister is happy to take the risk of an item selling for a penny? Tough luck. Sell it for what it made and get over it. I've also listed items and through my own fault forgotten to post a reseve and they've sold for less than I had though and I've made a loss. That's my fault and my bad luck but I don't attempt to blame anybody else OR to attempt to void the sale. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Ethical question RE: auction listing
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