o.k. we know saami is lose and that leads to poor accuracy/performance and brass life...

06 brass should be .472" and usualy is .465"

also the whelen cart is shorter than the actions by a bit.

here are some answers
1) use the larger 9,3x66 brass to take up some slop.
2) make a 66mm or 2.6" long neck case whelen or ai whelen

the long neck whelen will have better accuracy/performance and brass life and you can use factory ammo. kinda like the win mag/lott thing.

the 35 whelen a.i.x66 has the previous advantages and can use a.i. and "super" a.i.

the case capacity should be a tad more than the 358 hawk and close to or on par with the 358 howell so you get the idea...

358 hawk/howell performance
shoot whelen factory ammo
better accuracy
bigger, stronger and longer lasting brass

a name for the 358x66/a.i. you ask? well o.k. how about the 35 bruin.

this would only make sense if you already had a 35 whelen otherwise just buy a 9,3x66 but this is a fun project for the inclined with a whelen not doing much or you find one for cheap.

assuming you had the whelen just rechamber to a.i. and use neck/throat reamer to th 2.6" depth and use a.i. dies. pretty cheap eh...


below is the 9,3x66 brass that is closest to max spec.

I think the whelen is fine as is, the next logical step up is the 358 Norma.

That conclusion is based on having a 35 whelen ackley, 350 Rigby mag, and a 350 rem mag. Actually I think the 350 rem mag is the improved version of the whelen

i think it is a neet project that could do no harm and add some fun...you could still shoot whelen a.i.

it is just the next step up

and you could do better by using the 66 brass in the regular a.i.

like most wildcats it is not about making too much sense...

250's @ 2750 and 280's @ 2550 is enough (over 4000 lbs energy!) and this could do it on a regular whelen...that is enough.

I think you'd be running screaming high pressures to hit 2750 w/ 250's. I was at 2700 fps with my ackley, and I rechambered it to a 350 Rigby. The ackley wouldn't shoot when downloaded, and I knew the pressures were too high, I'm guestimating 70,000 psi.

There is simply no reason to redline a small case when a larger one can be had for less money and less work.

I've run at least a dozen wildcats and obscure rounds to come to that conclusion.

Well the drawing below I quickly changed from a 338 to 358. The Howell brass and 66 brass look good on paper. The Howell is 2.6" just like the 66. That extra neck is just filled with bullet. You gain very little net capacity. Actually my 350PDK case had three grains more Gross capacity than the Howell comparing a Norma 280 blown out case vs the Howell. The Howell is built heavy.

My data shows the Std Whelen to have around 73.3 grs of water capacity. My 350PDK had 80.2grs measured. The Howell had 77 measured.

My case had 9% over the STD. At equal pressure the best I would hope for is a 1 for 4 that would give me 2.25% velocity increase or 50fps. Yes I know and have seen the claims. IN my experience most of the gain is pressure. You are just at a point of very small returns. The 66 case could gain you a little more in a 3.6" magazine but you could move the bullet forward on the shorter cases as well.

That bullet is set to fit in an 06 magazine.

I converted mine to a 358 and sold it. On a larger bore you just can't beat capacity.

with the help of qual cart the first 35 bruin has been born...

he graciously formed the 35 bruin today.

headstamp brass is avalible for $1.50 a pop although no brass run has been ordered yet.

i will have the first dummies in the mail in a few days. for pics

the neck measures .57" long and the case is 2.59" long but will be 2.6" after one firing.

with formed brass with the 40 degree shoulder all you need is recomended rcbs reloading dies, chamber for whelen a.i. and use a 35 neck/throat reamer to 2.6"

on a 35 whelen it is just a $100 chamber job a.i. dies and headstamped brass to get 358 hawk/howell performance with off the shelf stuff.

with 250 gr hornady bullets crimped at the canalure it measures 3.34" and perfectly fills the neck so no bullet in the case body.

i will measure unfired (obviously) capacity once they are in hand.

just another way to skin a 35 wildcat

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Well the drawing below I quickly changed from a 338 to 358. The Howell brass and 66 brass look good on paper. The Howell is 2.6" just like the 66. That extra neck is just filled with bullet. You gain very little net capacity. Actually my 350PDK case had three grains more Gross capacity than the Howell comparing a Norma 280 blown out case vs the Howell. The Howell is built heavy.

My data shows the Std Whelen to have around 73.3 grs of water capacity. My 350PDK had 80.2grs measured. The Howell had 77 measured.

My case had 9% over the STD. At equal pressure the best I would hope for is a 1 for 4 that would give me 2.25% velocity increase or 50fps. Yes I know and have seen the claims. IN my experience most of the gain is pressure. You are just at a point of very small returns. The 66 case could gain you a little more in a 3.6" magazine but you could move the bullet forward on the shorter cases as well.

That bullet is set to fit in an 06 magazine.

I converted mine to a 358 and sold it. On a larger bore you just can't beat capacity.

yes the howell brass is thick and i think this one will be hopefuly 79 grains and be close to your pdk but nothing custom and the ability to fire whelen and whelen a.i. in it.

250's @ 2750 and 280's @ 2550 (over 4k ft lbs of energy!)is all you need or you reeeeely need something bigger. thus the 35 bruin name.
thanks for the drawing

isnt life fun

Hey Boom it sounds like all you need is a 9.3x62!

lol!
no i dont have that disease....not that there is anything wrong with that but the regular whelen a.i. has exactly the same capacity as the 62...this one has a smidge more and a waaaaay longer neck. no bullet in the case just the neck. pistol bullets should scream out of it.

quote:

yes the howell brass is thick and i think this one will be hopefuly 79 grains and be close to your pdk but nothing custom and the ability to fire whelen and whelen a.i. in it.

How is a Whelen with a real long neck going to gain you much?? In a pistol bullet maybe but the 250gr will just fill the neck you won't gain net capacity.

blowing out the body taper and keeping the bullet out of the case gives you all you need.

i will know in about 5 days what the capacity is from formed 06 basic brass that s .468" on the casehead.

I had a 35 Whelen AI, and sold it. It didn't produce much more than the standard 35 Whelen, and was a PITA to deal with.

Don

Guess I'm just dense. The Howell and 66 brass will give you a larger gross capacity. But as long as you leave the shoulder at the AIpostion and are limited by a 3.4" case you will gain no increase in net capacity. The bullet will simply fill the neck and the factory Whelen brass is plenty long to hold the bullet at 3.4". If you move the shoulder forward you still gain very little net capacity.

You would need to cut your chamber neck longer. Still need custom dies to handle the longer neck.

The Hawk and Howell show gains on their sites. They do have a little net capacity gain. We don't know what pressure they load to and their barrels are 25-26". The Whelen data is normally @60000 and shorter barrels.

Just from my experience I had a net capacity gain of 9% with my PDK I could only gain around 50FPS with 250gr bullets.

I just can't see the gain. Sorry

quote:

You would need to cut your chamber neck longer. Still need custom dies to handle the longer neck.

yes the neck would be done with a throating reamer

no custom dies if you use rcbs from what he says.

this is more about matching the hawk on off the shelf stuff and fun.

using the bigger 9,5x66 brass will help accuracy case life and add capacity.

if you want to go a.i. you lose nothing.

if you move the shoulder forward you have to do all custom and then you might as well do the howell or the hawk but this is a way to get hawk capacity using spare parts.

quote:

yes the neck would be done with a throating reamer

no custom dies if you use rcbs from what he says.

this is more about matching the hawk on off the shelf stuff and fun.

Well I would use a neck reamer not a throater. Your OAL will not be longer. Why increase the jump to the lands.

Your case will have as much or greater Gross capacity. However it will have less net capacity than the Hawk. Your case will hold less powder than the Hawk. You are doing a lot of work and I can't see how you will reach your goal.

Have fun.

well there is some benefit to use the canalures and still fit in the 3.34" magazine.

i will report the capacity soon. thanks for the help

I have standard chambering reamers for both the 9.3 X 62 and the .35 Whelen.....and I'd like to add that the single best thing one can do to the .35 whelen to improve performasnce is to freebore it like the 9.3 X 62.....this will allow more gains than all the AI BS you can dream up!

ci, mucho freeboray

hey, if you can tighten up the chambers with the larger 66 brass...why not???

the extra neck does add to it...

o.k. the fin's are not idiots and they came out with the 9,3x66 so the 35x66 is dumb???

yes in a longer action say the rem 700 there will be more benefit as to load out longer

the 35"bruin" will handel 350's well in a 3.34" action and in a longer action even more so.

the 9,3x66 boasts near 375 h+h performance and this will have the same length and capacity -1 grain maybe for shoulder position and you could use the same brass.

the 9,3x66 is great and this is its 35 bubba twin inbred cousin

It would be a lot easier top just build a 358 Norma Mag.

Rich
DRSS

yes...

even better a 358x64 using norma dies to skip the belt.

but this is fun too.

If you owned a .357 Magnum and a 30-06 (like I do), you'd be out in woods roaming around and hunting (like I'll be doing tomorrow) instead of dreaming up another another you won't be able to start for fifteen years. There's nothing wrong with the 35 Whelen as is. Townsend Whelen dreamed this cartridge up several decades before you were born...if it ain't broke, it don't need fixin'.

There's nothing really to improve. After a certain point, the law diminishing returns takes effect you spend more time at the reloading bench than you do at the range or on a hunt. Just build a 35 Whelen, pay attention to your case preparation when you reload, and shoot your handgun bullets till the barrel melts off.

sloppy saami, bad throating and the slow twist is what is wrong with the whelen that whelen had no control over.

fix those issues and there IS nothing wrong with the whelen.

this is a fun idea thatwill appeal to probably nobody else but hey... i will have fun. i am working on other stuff but i think the 35 version of the 9,3x66 is cool.

maybe this wknd i will shoot the sheep gong at 200 yards with my pumpkin roller

good hunting and any day you come home smelling like the forest, the forrest and deer guts or gunpowder is a good one

Much easier than all that horsing around is to just long throat a standard Whelen chamber , and use it in an action that will accept at least a 3.5 inch overall cartridge length......the Whelen case already has a good long neck .

I've hit 2700 with 250 gr Hornadays seated to 3.5 inch with ease , and pressure looked A OK , but for sure you could do 2650 with RL15 in a walk , or easily duplicate the AI and Hawk versions.....

Well, just my humble $.02, but based on comments made by several well know gun writers and from people on various sites who have gone the Ackely Improved route with the .35 Whelen have almost to a man said that if they had to do it all over again, they would stick with the standard Whelen cartridge. Apparently, the gain just was not worth the effort or the expense.
I have yet to figure out why Remington went with a 1 in 16" twist for the Whelen. Guess they figured most people would just go with the 200 gr. bullet and forget about the better 250 gr. bullets. I can't find any 250 gr. ammo here in town for mine, not that it's any big deal as I handload my ammo anyway. The local dealers say they just can't get any, or as one said, "It's been discontinued." My business with him has been discontinued.
Of course, Ruger followed suit with the 1 in 16" twist and a chamber so fat that brass life is way too short to suit me.
I'll most likely build up another .35 Whelen and have the proper 1 in 12" twist rate. One thing is for sure, it won't be any of the improved versions.
Paul B.

Wow, interesting speculation. Sold my Whelen, bought a 9.3x62. Done. "Problems"(?) solved. Questions left to those that enjoy creating and then "solving" them.
Next question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I have standard chambering reamers for both the 9.3 X 62 and the .35 Whelen.....and I'd like to add that the single best thing one can do to the .35 whelen to improve performasnce is to freebore it like the 9.3 X 62.....this will allow more gains than all the AI BS you can dream up!

+1

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
Well, just my humble $.02, but based on comments made by several well know gun writers and from people on various sites who have gone the Ackely Improved route with the .35 Whelen have almost to a man said that if they had to do it all over again, they would stick with the standard Whelen cartridge. Apparently, the gain just was not worth the effort or the expense.
I have yet to figure out why Remington went with a 1 in 16" twist for the Whelen. Guess they figured most people would just go with the 200 gr. bullet and forget about the better 250 gr. bullets. I can't find any 250 gr. ammo here in town for mine, not that it's any big deal as I handload my ammo anyway. The local dealers say they just can't get any, or as one said, "It's been discontinued." My business with him has been discontinued.
Of course, Ruger followed suit with the 1 in 16" twist and a chamber so fat that brass life is way too short to suit me.
I'll most likely build up another .35 Whelen and have the proper 1 in 12" twist rate. One thing is for sure, it won't be any of the improved versions.
Paul B.

well like i said there are twi routes here...th 35 bruin and the unimproved version and yes a 3.5" action would be best.

definitely a cart for long neck lovers...

i think this is a cart for those who like to shoot heavy bullets like the 270's 280's and 310's without dipping into the case. woodleighs 310's would not even reach the shoulder loaded to 3.34"!!!! and the 280's will fill the neck up.

it is another way to get 35 hawk performance and i think that is kinda neet without custom stuff.

its neck and shoulder is similar to the 350 rigby but the 35 bruin does have a longer neck as you can see below.



it has 3mm on the regular whelen with a shoulder forward a smidge and 4mm on the 9,3x62

anyone got a a 358 310 gr woodleigh or 280 gr a-fram they can spare for my dummies?

question...

in your opinion is the "35 bruin" a new cart/wildcat or just an "improved" version.

fred zeglin says that if you can fire a standard cart in the same chamber than it is not a wildcat but the lott is ditinguished as a diff cart even though you can fire win mags in it...

the bruin is basicly a long neck ackley whelen to use the canalure and get the bullet out of the case and utilizing all of the magazine length when using the heaviest of bullets.

it is more a matter of style, ego and prefference i admit.

so is it "new"

there are plenty of carts with not much separating them and this is 3mm longer.