I love my 8x57, but want to build one or maybe two more 8mm rifles.

I've looked at 8mm-06, 8x68s, 325 WSM, and 8mm Rem Mag.

I like the 325 WSM and the 8x68s best, but wondering if folks have experience with wildcats like 8mm/404J; 8mm UltraMag; 8mm/378 WBY, 8mm/300 or 338, 8mm/300 or 338 Ruger CM, etc.

Any experience with the wildcats?

I'll throw my hat in on the 8mm rem mag. Had a KS mountain rifle that was an absolute hammer. A lot of smash in a 7lb rifle......

quote:

Originally posted by JR:
I'll throw my hat in on the 8mm rem mag. Had a KS mountain rifle that was an absolute hammer. A lot of smash in a 7lb rifle......

Just don't like the belt, but agree, lots of smash! Always wanted one. Would build a Remington 700 or Win Model 70. The 8mm-06, 8x68 would be on a M98; the 325 WSM would probably be a Kimber or Model 70.

If I was to make one from scratch, it would definitely be an 8x68. Having said that, my son has a Browning A Bolt in 325 WSM and it is a nice shooting, light weight set up.

A lot would depend on the action you intend to build on.

I have an 8x68 on a Mauser 98 and I feel that cartridge is perfect for that action. A wildcat 8mm Ruger using the 375 or 416 Ruger case would also be a great fit in the action. On a 700 LA or similar the 8mm Rem would be good, the .325 WSM is a great choice for a SA.

Again, action choice and recoil tolerance will contribute a great deal to the choice.

Need not choose anything above 8mm Remington Magnum.

quote:

Austin Hunter
one of us

posted Jan 5, 1:28 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JR:
I'll throw my hat in on the 8mm rem mag. Had a KS mountain rifle that was an absolute hammer. A lot of smash in a 7lb rifle......


Just don't like the belt, but agree, lots of smash! Always wanted one. Would build a Remington 700 or Win Model 70. The 8mm-06, 8x68 would be on a M98; the 325 WSM would probably be a Kimber or Model 70.

"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan

Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness.
 
Posts: 2254 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 05 April 2006

What action are you going to be using? If it is a standard length LR M98 action, the 8X68S would be the ultimate for that action.

I already have a 1939 Oberndorf M98K action, a M98/29 barrel cut & crowned to 26" and Redding 8X68S dies as well as a few once fired RWS 8X68 cases to play with.

With Norma MRP the 8X68S should be able to push a 200gr bullet past the 3000 fps mark without exceeding CIP pressure limits in a 26" barrel.

I have used an Oberndorff commercial M98 in 8x68S for several decades. It is a great rifle and great cartridge. After using it for awhile, any mention of a .300 or .338 magnum only made me yawn. Why bother? Both are pointless if you have an 8x68S. You may want something smaller (6.5x55 or 6.5x68) or larger (9.3 in various forms) but in its class the 8x68S is unrivaled (in my personal opinion). Sure, the .308 Norma and the .300 H&H are classic rounds, but if you want to have just one in class ...my choice is the 8x68S. 200 gr. bullets with excellent SD at 3,000 fps. What's not to like? What factory round in the 300 - 338 range beats it with acceptable recoil?

I think that the .325 WSM is one of the finest cartridge developments of recent times. If someone in the U.S. who hunts larger game wants a rifle with readily available factory ammo, .325 WSM is the way to go. I recommend it for Alaskan hunting and many friends and acquaintances in Alaska now carry it.

Good luck with your choice and new rifle!

neck the .375 Ruger down to 8MM.....It'll fit nicely in any standard magnum action.

No belt.....no need for a lot of rail work....and no appreciable gain from any other 8MM you can think of.

well, what's the mission? the questions below are meant to provoke thought and discussion, NOT to be jerky

Is it to build the ultimate speed 8mm? McBros repeater action, neck down the 50 BMG, 48" barrel -- might have to use Kingsford for powder, though...

Is it to build the 'ultimate' rifle? oh boy -- is that rust blue, english walnut,stalking rifle with irons only, weighing 6.5#? or an Unlimited class benchrest beast, weighing 89 pounds, made of titanium and aerospace materials? 16.5 or 31" barrel?

is it ultimate efficiency? getting the most out of an underbore case?

is it CHEAPEST possible combo?

semi? bolt? falling block,


If you are looking for "just larger than barely overbore" the 8mm magnum case capacity is about it - that's a full length HH case, improved, and is overbore -- so is a 8x338 or 8x300win, but not excessively overbore -- therefore, all of the cases that result in roughly 105gr of water capacity would fall into this capacity, so any case resulting would be "fine"

"underbore".. well, the 8x57 is hard to beat, though the 8x57AI is a great case .. an 8x51 or 8PPC would hard to beat- while an 8BR case sure would be sweet --

anything smaller would lead to bullet complications in find a hunting bullet that would reliably expand at lower vels -- hence some of the troubles with the 338x51 or x08, or called the 338 federal -- bullet selection becomes an issue

then comes the action - an 8mag in a rem 700 is an excellent pairing -- you can find those used all day long, including factory guns ... an 8ppc or 8x39, or even 8BR, well, feeding could be an issue unless you use a specialized action --

though the actions that fit an 8x57 .. well, let's just assume there there where over 50,000,000 actions built for this action, and designed for it ..


it's hard to beat the 8x57, though the 8x57AI is an improvement.. arguably the 8x06 is even better --


i think i have nothing to actually add to the conversation, and have considered just deleting this post before posting --

build the rifle of your dreams, and make an 8MM fit ... remember that the 8x57 and the 8mag are both outstanding rounds

So it is technically not an 8mm, but my vote is also my latest project (not much progress yet) -- .318 Rimless Nitro Express aka .318 Westley Richards.

Sticking to the 8mm, I would go 8 Mag although I have no basis for it other than it is the parent case for the 7STW which is what I thought I wanted about 30+ years ago when it was still a wild cat.

I have an 8x60S. And doing some snooping on nitro express forum, l see photos suggesting that the case is almost exactly the same as the 318WR. Privi still make ammo.
Interesting round if you like a bit of history. It's been proposed that the WR reamer was used to extent the x57 chamber, but nothing to back this up of course.
Anyhow, 323 bullets are more bountiful than 330 offerings.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I love my 8x57, but want to build one or maybe two more 8mm rifles.

My 8mm trifecta for the M98 action....

8x57IS 200gr bullet @ 2700 fps from a 23 1/2" barrel 1960s vintage VZ500 I L M98 action M98K barrel


8mm-06 Ackley Improved 200gr bullet @ 2900 fps from a 26" barrel 1943 vintage J P Sauer & Sohn M98K action M98/29 barrel


8X68S 200gr bullet @ 3050 fps from a 26" barrel 1939 vintage Oberndorf M98K action M98/29 barrel still gathering other components.

That would cover just about anything short of Cape Buffalo. Certainly anything on this continent.

quote:

Originally posted by boet:

Anyhow, 323 bullets are more bountiful than 330 offerings.

Well if you are going to inject practicality into it...

For me the ultimate 8mm would be a mountain rifle
Weighing in at 8lbs maybe a few ounces less.
A titanium action could make for a light, unique touch.
Topped with a Z5 probably the 18x just to keep the scope
Weight as close to 1lb as possible.
Since 8mm Wildcats are on the menu I think 8mm x 280 Ackley
Could be interesting.
The Ackley case should be able to run a 200gr NAB 29ish without
Getting out of line a as far as pressures go.

Try necking down the 330 Dakota round to 8mm, that would be a good wildcat.

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
For me the ultimate 8mm would be a mountain rifle
Weighing in at 8lbs maybe a few ounces less.
A titanium action could make for a light, unique touch.
Topped with a Z5 probably the 18x just to keep the scope
Weight as close to 1lb as possible.
Since 8mm Wildcats are on the menu I think 8mm x 280 Ackley
Could be interesting.
The Ackley case should be able to run a 200gr NAB 29ish without
Getting out of line a as far as pressures go.

No real advantage over the 8mm-06 Ackley Improved and buckets of Lake City 30-06 brass can be picked up for the asking at any range where they do CMP qualifying.

Mine h1ts 2900 fps with 200gr Speer Hotcors and pressure is under 60K with Norma MRP.

The 8mm x 280 Ackley offers 74gr water.
The 8mm-06 offers 70 gr water.

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
The 8mm x 280 Ackley offers 74gr water.
The 8mm-06 offers 70 gr water.

Like I said no real advantage.

And BTW may 8mm-06 A.I. actual H2O case capacity is 75.7 gr. And that is an actual measurement that I did, not something out of a book.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
The 8mm x 280 Ackley offers 74gr water.
The 8mm-06 offers 70 gr water.

Like I said no real advantage.

And BTW may 8mm-06 A.I. actual H2O case capacity is 75.7 gr. And that is an actual measurement that I did, not something out of a book.

And of course that varies depending on brand of brass and when made.

The 8mm-06 AI is the end all, be all, you heard it here. No need to look further.

Bartsche has made a 8-404 2.5" improved wildcat. You might want to look at that. If I am voting, a simple necking down to 8mm whilst maintaining that gentle slopes angle to keep the lovely asthetics and make a 323 Jeffery and if you like your Tea pinky extended have a lovely matching rifle in 404 Jeffery or a 323 and 423 Jeffery if you will. PG and DG 2 gun safari.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
The 8mm x 280 Ackley offers 74gr water.
The 8mm-06 offers 70 gr water.

Like I said no real advantage.

And BTW may 8mm-06 A.I. actual H2O case capacity is 75.7 gr. And that is an actual measurement that I did, not something out of a book.

And of course that varies depending on brand of brass and when made.

Which is why a 4gr difference in the 280 case compared to the 30-06 case is not significant.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:The 8mm-06 AI is the end all, be all, you heard it here. No need to look further.

Then how would you explain my goal of building an 8X68S? Seems your snide remark left a bit of yolk on your face.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Bartsche has made a 8-404 2.5" improved wildcat. You might want to look at that. If I am voting, a simple necking down to 8mm whilst maintaining that gentle slopes angle to keep the lovely asthetics and make a 323 Jeffery and if you like your Tea pinky extended have a lovely matching rifle in 404 Jeffery or a 323 and 423 Jeffery if you will. PG and DG 2 gun safari.

have once used 8mmx.404x2.5 IMP reamer which I'll be glad to loan . roger

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
There is something tremendously sexy about a 8x68 S !

This part of the world was and still has very strong German connection and the 8x68 always with a long slim barrel on a Mauser Action was very much at home on a Kudu or Gemsbuck hunt !

I have a 29" M98/29 that has already been cut & crowned to 26, a 1943 vintage J. P. Sauer & Sohn M98K action & 1904 Portuguese Verguero bottom metal. I hope to build my 8X68S with the same overall lines as my 8mm-06 A.I. pictured in my post above albeit with a little more beef in the stock, emulating an express rifle but with the straight comb for scope use. Maybe even a barrel band sling swivel stud.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:This was the shit of legend ! The only problem as we later came to learn was the relative shortage of and very costly RWS ammo and cases !

As I was gathering up some Redding 8X68S dies, I bought 20 (then available) Hertinberger cases and a forum member sent me a few once fired RWS cases. Last I looked Norma brass was available for a little over $2 each.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF: A old time German hunting friend referred to his 8x68 as his "Rauch Waffe " or smoke weapon ! Which at the time it literally was trumping at the time old standards such as the 300 win !

I have and shoot two of these ! Now whilst there is likely little to no real time advantage to the 8x68 over a standard 300 or 338 there is something magical about the shape and looks of Schuler's big 8 !

While I was inspecting the 8X68S brass I have in hand, ut appears that the case taper is the same as the 8X57 IS,

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:


Then how would you explain my goal of building an 8X68S? Seems your snide remark left a bit of yolk on your face.

Oh, no, only use egg substitutes, gotta watch the cholesterol dontcha know.

Truthfully, I couldn't figure out why you were building an 8x68 since your AI will do it all.

Also can't figure out your aversion to Stuart's suggestion of using the 280 AI as a parent? Not worth it you say, yet when someone else says not worth it, you take it as a personal affront.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

While I was inspecting the 8X68S brass I have in hand, ut appears that the case taper is the same as the 8X57 IS,

One of the things that contributes to its smooth feeding in a 98. Something AI's are not as wont to do. Hence, my less than enthusiastic feelings toward them. Sure, they can be made to feed, but when there is a cartridge out there like the 8x68 that doesn't require a 3.5" mag box and on the whole requires less effort to ensure reliable, effortless feeding, why bother? Not worth it. To me at least.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:


Then how would you explain my goal of building an 8X68S? Seems your snide remark left a bit of yolk on your face.

Oh, no, only use egg substitutes, gotta watch the cholesterol dontcha know.

Truthfully, I couldn't figure out why you were building an 8x68 since your AI will do it all.

Also can't figure out your aversion to Stuart's suggestion of using the 280 AI as a parent? Not worth it you say, yet when someone else says not worth it, you take it as a personal affront.

Again with the snide condescending remarks. Do you always twist things written by others into something you can mock? Perhaps to satisfy some deep seeded subconscious feelings of insecurity?

Here is mine 8x68S - Blaser R93, 24.6" barrel, KKC stock





126gr, 3600 fps

Mouse,

Nice rifle. Tell me more about those 126 grain loads.

Thank you z.

Previously I was shooting 195gr CDP bullets at 3100 fps - CDP is very simillar to A-frame. But since I shot a stag through both shoulders and bullet did not exit:

Here is how I found the CDP bullet on under the hide on the exit side:



Recovered bullet:



and later on when I shot a roebuck (20kg critter) frontal missing an exit as well, I started to look for something else.

I was given a couple of boxes of SAX KJG factory loaded ammo to try - you can separate factory loads (red plastic point) and handloads (black plastic point). In my spare time I am working as a deputy PH and have to cull a decent quota of red deer and boars every year so I am getting test stuff on regular basis. If those behave further as they did so far, I will handload them in the future.

I am shooting it for half a year now and have shot app 50 critters (red deer and boars) with it so far. Results are promising and very uniform. Load shoots basicaly flat out to 300m, recoil is noticeably milder. Bullet opens quickly - frontal 30gr part desintegrates in smaller parts and the rest in a from of cilinder always (so far) exits, leaving a caliber size exit wound. Here is an example of typical exit wound on red hind shot through both shoulders (rifle has an old stock on this pic tho).



Usually (so far) animals drop on the spot or make a short run out to 30m or so, bleeding profoundly. Meat damage is minimal.

Nice. Thanks for the report on field performance. I envy you that you get afield so often. It's a tough job, but some one has to do it!

323 jeffery - now that's interesting. But given the British caliber naming, wouldn't that be a .311 Jeffery?

You gents are giving me ideas. There is always another rifle to build! I have 100 new old stock 8mm Magnum Remington cases just waiting for a project.

It is little off topic, but:

I also tried the box of SAX KJG in my custom CZ in .375 H&H. I chronographed it about 3507 fps (1069 m/s) with 154gr bullet. It was accurate, but about 45 cm (18") higher at 100 m than Norma Factory ammo with 300 gr bullet.

Jiri

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
323 jeffery - now that's interesting. But given the British caliber naming, wouldn't that be a .311 Jeffery?

It is cute that it is exactly one tenth of an inch smaller but being Americano a 323-404 would be correct. How it got to be called a 404 to begin with is a convoluted mystery. If you wanted to go English nomenclature, you could go 404/323 rimless nitro express. Euro? 8x73. Spanglish? Ocho-loco!
Whatever you call it, an 8-404 would be a sexy cart and easy to make a headstamp for with simply adding an 8 to the headstamp.

I had an 8 mag for years, todays powders might gain a bit over the 2900 fps with 220 grn I was getting.
I used my Namibian pals 8x68 on one trip to hunt with him. Kudu, eland, heartebeast and gemsbok, plus some smaller critters.
At first I was WOW look at that, as on broadside shots it looked like a 5 gallon bucket of blood was thrown on the bushes or ground behind the critter. But, the more I shot it, the more I realized the critters ran just as far after the shot as with 30-06, .375, 45/70 and several other cartridges.
Nothing any more magic, or less then a host of other combo's I've used.

I've been real happy with my 8x57 in a 20" Mannlicher - one elk, two red stags, and one waterbuck - among other things. Took one of the stags at 250 yards. It was severe quartering shot - aimed ahead of the left rear hip, traveled through GI tract, through lungs, took top of heart off, and lodged in the right shoulder. All from a 200 gr Accubond at 2,450 fps.

So a 24" 8x57 or 8mm-06 or 8mm-06 AI might be perfect. Avoids a belt, avoids a fatter cartridge, and enables 5 down in standard rifle like a 8x57.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I've been real happy with my 8x57 in a 20" Mannlicher - one elk, two red stags, and one waterbuck - among other things. Took one of the stags at 250 yards. It was severe quartering shot - aimed ahead of the left rear hip, traveled through GI tract, through lungs, took top of heart off, and lodged in the right shoulder. All from a 200 gr Accubond at 2,450 fps.

So a 24" 8x57 or 8mm-06 or 8mm-06 AI might be perfect. Avoids a belt, avoids a fatter cartridge, and enables 5 down in standard rifle like a 8x57.

I like your way of thinking but want to point out that the AI does become a "fatter" cartridge at least at the shoulder where the case gets blown out. This will present issues in an unaltered magazine and will limit capacity to only four down.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I've been real happy with my 8x57 in a 20" Mannlicher - one elk, two red stags, and one waterbuck - among other things. Took one of the stags at 250 yards. It was severe quartering shot - aimed ahead of the left rear hip, traveled through GI tract, through lungs, took top of heart off, and lodged in the right shoulder. All from a 200 gr Accubond at 2,450 fps.

So a 24" 8x57 or 8mm-06 or 8mm-06 AI might be perfect. Avoids a belt, avoids a fatter cartridge, and enables 5 down in standard rifle like a 8x57.

I like your way of thinking but want to point out that the AI does become a "fatter" cartridge at least at the shoulder where the case gets blown out. This will present issues in an unaltered magazine and will limit capacity to only four down.

With this ethos may I proudly be humble and suggest an 8x62.
Start with a donor 9,3x62 for propper feeding and safari furnishings.
Use the larger capacity 9,3x62 euro case for a "Eurocat"
Change the headstamp to read 8x62 by stamping out the 9 and turning the 3 into an 8 with punches if you will hunt Africa with it.

I have used my Remington 700 Classic in 8mm magnum in Texas ,Clorado,Namibia ,and South Africa.It dotes on either 200 or 220 grain Swift A-Frames and there are several dead animals that can attest to its usefulness. But with two rotator cuff surgeries, it is unpleasant for me to shoot.maybe it needs a new home? Jerry Hoover