I haven't seen anyone else yet saying the following, though I've posted it elsewhere...

The .350 Legend is simply a rim- and extractor groove-turned, lengthened 9x23 Winchester case. If you look at case dimensions of the 9x23 Win and compare with the 350 Legend, you'll find that the head, tapered case, and extractor groove angle are just about identical, as is the max pressure (55k psi). Winchester simply took their 1990s pistol cartridge design, dusted it off, tweaked it, and re-released it with all the hype of a brand new cartridge. Since I shoot 9x23 in both pistol and carbine and believe it's one of the best-designed autoloading cartridges ever, when I saw the 350 Legend dimensions, it was immediately obvious.

I'll bet that anyone who sections both 350L and 9x23 Win cases should find that the internal web thicknesses match.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is this a new case and not a 223 case? From what I read, they did a few extra steps to make this work when forming the case. It is not a parallel sided case (It actually has nominal taper) and the base is not .376” like a 223. It seems this is slightly rebated. You could stuff this case with a 9,3 bullet to have a truly parallel sided case. 9,3-350 Legend for subsonic?

BINGO!! Boomstick got it. It's NOT a straight walled cartridge. Win even said that and that they tapered it so it would function better in AR's. I suspect they really did so to make it proprietory cartridge. Win also states they make the cartridge brass on the 223/5.56 line to save money, thus the reason the bullets are made on the 9mm line.

There is a 5.56 or 223 case openned up to the correct diameter bullet and I believe on one individual makes barrels for it. With it you really can just use 5.56 brass with no hassles in forming it and it is straight walled.

BTW the Win ammo has a crimped primers thus proving they really do make it on the 5.56 line.

From another thread...

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What I am now concerned about is the report elsewhere on AR, that the 350 Legend actually has a .355 groove diameter barrel, not .357/8, and also has a tight chamber which won't allow normal 357 type bullets to be loaded.
If that is true, then it is already doomed, at least for hand loaders.
I know that the SAAMI spec is .357, minus .003. Which means nothing anyway. No maker is bound to anything SAAMI says.
I definitely do not want a rifle limited to 9mm bullets.
I need more data before I get one.
Load data? What is wrong with the Lee/Hodgdon data?

If this is true, it is a shame. It seems you would have to go a custom route to make this shine. I suggest a tweaked chamber and a true 357 or 358 barrel to fix these issues. The real Legend is the 357 Maximum. Perhaps this is just a 9x43. Maybe just use the brass to make a 357 Maximum Rimless and use off the shelf dies and reamer. loads of loads available to use...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
From another thread...

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What I am now concerned about is the report elsewhere on AR, that the 350 Legend actually has a .355 groove diameter barrel, not .357/8, and also has a tight chamber which won't allow normal 357 type bullets to be loaded.
If that is true, then it is already doomed, at least for hand loaders.
I know that the SAAMI spec is .357, minus .003. Which means nothing anyway. No maker is bound to anything SAAMI says.
I definitely do not want a rifle limited to 9mm bullets.
I need more data before I get one.
Load data? What is wrong with the Lee/Hodgdon data?

If this is true, it is a shame. It seems you would have to go a custom route to make this shine. I suggest a tweaked chamber and a true 357 or 358 barrel to fix these issues. The real Legend is the 357 Maximum. Perhaps this is just a 9x43. Maybe just use the brass to make a 357 Maximum Rimless and use off the shelf dies and reamer. loads of loads available to use...

On two forums is this fellow I know. He said that 357 is the largest diameter that will fit. Another fellow I know, who just shoots cast from his, says just load .358 diameter bullet and size the case down is the sizing die using it as a taper crimp (without crimping of course) to the size where it just fits and functions oaky. What he's doing is made a diamond lap and opened up the throat to be able to get the cartridges chambered with fatter bullets. There is no harm and shooting bullets larger then the groove diameter...to a degree.

here's the answer
https://mansonreamers.files.wo...y-2019-catalog-1.pdf

page 11, throater, $50 -- order it .3585 ... 10 minutes, done.. sell it to the next guy

That is just a throater (one of which I have in .358) and does nothing for the chamber which seems to be too small to allow normal 35 cal bullets.
Also, NOTHING is truly straight walled; they all will have some degree of taper.
GREG: about the 35 REM; I was countering what someone said about it not working in .473 bolts; I am fully aware of the straight walled (not really straight) cartridge states because I live in one. Just where I hunt, on an Army Ammo Plant; does not allow any cartridge rifles.

If you do a barrel swap to put this in bolt gun, it will work. Some bolt rifles in 223 use a 308 length action.
As My Stevens 200. The bolt has a extra wide spacer behind the locking lugs and a blocked off magazine. Some other may just block off the rear of the magazine.
In this case I would go with the 35 Remington or remove the blocking and go with a 358 Winchester.
Leo

I have read that a 45-70 and 450 bushmaster are legal replacements for slug guns but they have much more recoil than the 358 legend which meets bore size and energy requirements. A 375 winchester should be legal too.

Actually dpcd there are some true straight cartridge and to just name one the 38 Super.

The Legend case is made on the line that Winchester makes the 5.56, but it's not a 5.56 case all the way. I has the 5.56 rim, but right ahead of the extractor groove it measures .390 and the case is tapered so it can function in an AR. A truly straight case in an AR will jam going into the chamber especially if the magazine hasn't released it's hold on the case.

I don't know what you all are clamoring about because the Legend barrel has a .355 groove. By the way Winchester says the bullet diameter is .357 with a .003 +/- in the minus direction. Back to the .355 groove. Look at SAAMI and see what the groove is for the 9mm, 38 Special, .357, and more...it's .355. In fact I believe the 357 Remington Maximum is .355, but Remington actually said they load it with .357 bullets. The outside diameter at the mouth for the Maximum with a .357 bullet seated is .379. Same figure that is told not to exceed in the Legend. Some have already told us it will take a .357 and chamber. So all along we've all been shooting .357 and .358 bullets down a lot of .335 groove diameter barrels way before the Legend came along.

The Legend is a very good round for those states that require it because of their cartridge limitation for deer hunting. Don't get riled up about 9mm bullets it in or better said pistol/revolver bullet because Hornady is already geared up with a new bullet for the Legend classified as a rifle bullet. More will follow.

I myself bad mouthed the Legend, but guess what I bought one and I really like it. Give it a chance.

The clamor is because all I hear from guys is that the chamber is too tight to allow .357/8 bullets to chamber.
That is a big deal to us who have been reloading 357s for decades and don't want to start having another set of big game bullets in 9mm.
What the bore is doesn't matter; if they won't chamber, that does matter.
My state is one that just approved "straight" walls. But where I hunt on the ammo plant, still no CF rifles.
All this doesn't matter anyway as most local deer hunters I know don't reload; the custom here is to gather 10-20 of your friends and relatives and blast away in party hunting. Some sort of local custom; Real safe; one guy was killed yesterday.
Ok, I was wrong about the 38 Super; I am mortified. Really.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
The clamor is because all I hear from guys is that the chamber is too tight to allow .357/8 bullets to chamber.
That is a big deal to us who have been reloading 357s for decades and don't want to start having another set of big game bullets in 9mm.
What the bore is doesn't matter; if they won't chamber, that does matter.
My state is one that just approved "straight" walls. But where I hunt on the ammo plant, still no CF rifles.
Ok, I was wrong about the 38 Super; I am mortified. Really.

But the thing is dcpd you aren't suppose to be using pistol/revolver bullet in 350 Legend. An example would be if you own a 35 Remington and a 357 Magnum, you don't load the same bullets for those two even though they have the same diameter. Sending a pistol jacketed bullet along in the mid 2000's fps for deer is the same as using Speer TNT bullets in a 224 caliber rifle. Loss deer unless you head shoot them.

I know a friend that makes all these barrels, the 350 Legend and the 357 ARMax. He has the reamers and they make a larger throat and you can load a heavy cast bullet in the 200 grain weight and up out to an OAL length
limit of 2.25". The 357 ARMax case is 1.605 long and the 350 Legend with the special throat is 1.710 and the 350 Legend will have the .358 groove diameter. What Winchester should have done. He says the slightly shorter 357 ARMax will beat the Legend one in velocity.

I'm thinking of going ahead and getting the 357 ARMax. I can have my choice of a Green Mountain barrel or a Douglas and other premium barrels. I'm going with the Green Mountain.

Did you know one of my friends pulled the bullet out of the Winchester Legend case and cases were all over the place in length, most being short, and this is on a cartridge that head spaces on the case mouth. Some real shoddy work by Winchester.

Maybe there could be an improved version that could still shoot factory 350 legend another will shoot 358 bullets.
Also, 9,3 bullets for a straight case!

Yes I do shoot pistol bullets in my big 35s for plinking and I want to do the same for a 350 Legend.
There will be no improved version of the 350; that would only confuse the mass marketplace and cause jammed rifles. It's too late for that. As I said, none of the straight wall deer hunters I know around here reload; they only shoot a few rounds a year anyway and do not know the difference.
I have used GM barrels; they are fine for short range deer hunting.

What dpcd said is true, that would cause a big mess for sure. Not the same as when Remington came out with the 244 and then changed it's name to the 6mm Remington after changing it's twist. They'll both chamber.

There is an improved version of the 350 Legend, but it's not factory. It's the one that friend of mine is making. Basically the same chamber tweated some, but with a much longer better throat and the barrel has a .358 barrel groove.

dpcd you surely don't prefer revolver bullets in your 35 Remington for deer hunting do you? You know you can size down factory jacketed revolver bullets. This isn't the best thing for accuracy though. Now one could have their chamber tweaked on the 350 Legend to accept cartridges with .358 bullets. Like I've mentioned we've been shooting .358 bullets through .355 groove barrels for decades. I would adjust the maximum loads if I did that though.

Can you get him to share the dimensions?

quote:

Originally posted by vzerone:
What dpcd said is true, that would cause a big mess for sure. Not the same as when Remington came out with the 244 and then changed it's name to the 6mm Remington after changing it's twist. They'll both chamber.

There is an improved version of the 350 Legend, but it's not factory. It's the one that friend of mine is making. Basically the same chamber tweated some, but with a much longer better throat and the barrel has a .358 barrel groove.

dpcd you surely don't prefer revolver bullets in your 35 Remington for deer hunting do you? You know you can size down factory jacketed revolver bullets. This isn't the best thing for accuracy though. Now one could have their chamber tweaked on the 350 Legend to accept cartridges with .358 bullets. Like I've mentioned we've been shooting .358 bullets through .355 groove barrels for decades. I would adjust the maximum loads if I did that though.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Can you get him to share the dimensions?

quote:

Originally posted by vzerone:
What dpcd said is true, that would cause a big mess for sure. Not the same as when Remington came out with the 244 and then changed it's name to the 6mm Remington after changing it's twist. They'll both chamber.

There is an improved version of the 350 Legend, but it's not factory. It's the one that friend of mine is making. Basically the same chamber tweated some, but with a much longer better throat and the barrel has a .358 barrel groove.

dpcd you surely don't prefer revolver bullets in your 35 Remington for deer hunting do you? You know you can size down factory jacketed revolver bullets. This isn't the best thing for accuracy though. Now one could have their chamber tweaked on the 350 Legend to accept cartridges with .358 bullets. Like I've mentioned we've been shooting .358 bullets through .355 groove barrels for decades. I would adjust the maximum loads if I did that though.

I'm in the process of getting exact dimensions from him, but I can tell you this. Same case length of 1.710 and I believe from what he told me the base is .001 larger then the Winchesters, but that's nothing to worry about at all. I believe also the front of the chamber is a tad fatter, and of course the much improved throat.

Now I'm going to tell you fellows something. Like me you all have probably heard from various forums that the fattest bullet you can load in the 350 Legend and still chamber is .357. Well that's true if IF any of the full bearing diameter of the bullet is protruding from the case mouth. Let me explain. The very very short freebore of the Legend, like to call it it the beginning of the throat, is .357 in diameter. Now if you were to seat the bullet full diameter of the bullet is flush with the case mouth, well I'm not going to blow your minds and tell you what it will take, but let me say a so seated .358 bullet will fall in the chamber. Many many many people don't know this. There is plenty room for powder in that case to seat such bullets deep. Of and by all means work your loads up when doing do.

If you rechamber with a 35 neck/throater pilot reamer you should be better off amiriiihht?