quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I am not sure if this is the "Best" or the "Wildest" that I saved for the last of yesterdays test work?

Let me introduce you to The CEB BBW#13 "Switcheroo"! For lack of a better term for right now. This is something our very own Boomy must take credit for, another one of his WILD ASS ideas, that happens to be pretty spiffy! Now for the life of me I can't figure why Dan did these in a useless rat caliber like .308, but this is what I got, so I had to work with it. It is a 130 gr BBW#13 Solid on one end, and a NonCon HP on the other.




Now guys, I have mentioned this to you about the "Switcheroo" before, but I have to go over this again with you. Now I am not considered a "Cheap Bastard" or even frugal. However, one does have to take into account the Economic impact of any service, or product. This has to be a top consideration. Now I am not in this bullet business, so that has no bearing, but I know Shooters and Gun folks very well, and you know, I hate to say this, but you bastards are CHEAP! I know this from years of experience with you! Ever sit at a gun show behind the table? If so, you know what I mean!

Now, in thinking this "Switcheroo" through, it is an amazing concept, a BBW#13 Solid on one side, A NonCon HP on the other, you just turn it around, and load it for what you need at the time. One bullet, does all. As we all know, the NonCon HP version costs a few more dollars per box than the solid, it takes a little more work to get a NonCon HP. Naturally. So to use the Switcheroo as a solid just did not make good sense to me, economically. Why shoot a NonCon cost bullet as a cheaper Solid? Well I did come up with a couple of things to the favor of good economics. One, less foot print on you bullet shelves, you would no longer need multiple boxes of Solids and NonCons, you could get by with one box that does it all. In some cases, that could be very important. Another is shipping things out of country, again, would not have to do Solids and NonCons and would save half the shipping and aggravation, and that could very well make up for the extra cost. So that is a big positive and might just pay for itself.

But what about normal guys, it just don't pan out I think. So I put some more thought into this and I really did come up with the most excellent solutions to this problem of economics that gives you "DOUBLE BANG FOR THE SAME DOLLAR!"

YES--You heard me correctly! Now you can have DOUBLE BANG for the same dollar! Here is how you do it!

First load the bullet as a SOLID. Shoot it, RECOVER IT, and turn it around then shoot it as a NonCon Hollow Point the second time around!

Now I do admit there are some flaws to be sorted out, such as proper recovery after the first shot, but I leave that to each individual to sort out! In other words, I figured it out for you, but you have to do something, after all it's you that is cheap to begin with!

Obviously I would not leave you totally out in the cold on this concept, so Sam and I put it to the test to see how it would work!



I wanted a good test for this, so I picked a 308 rat rifle I had not had in my hands in 6 years, like I said not much call for that sort of thing here. The scope had 6 years of dust on the lens, you could not even see out of it, so Sam had to give that a cleaning. We also was able to use Sam's 300 Winchester for the second round of tests with the bullet.

We loaded of course solid end first and tested both rifles with the solids!



Then turned right around to test the "Double Bang For the Buck" theory!



And here we go!









Same 4 bullets in each, 308 and 300.

A note about the solid end. Penetration was extreme for a 130 gr rat caliber. In each cartridge, 40-42 inches dead straight, then some started turning a bit at the end of penetration, a couple of them found sideways at the end, some found dead straight ahead.

On the NonCon HP end a phenomena occurred that does not happen with the straight NonCon HP and that was more velocity gave less overall penetration? Regardless of that it was more than enough for any rat type rifle, and more than any conventional rat bullet can come to. Below I thought it was of note to show you the massive trauma inflicted upon the 2 inch witness cards. A tremendous amount of trauma inflicted by the 300 Winchester load.






So there you go boys! You see the results, the tests were successful on every count, the solid worked great as a solid, the NonCon worked great as a NonCon, I gave you an economical feasible solution for doubling your bang for the dollar, I can no longer see any downsides to this bullet! And for those of you that want a long range rat caliber bullet, as you notice the NonCon end is shorter than the Solid end, there is a reason for that, Sam and I finally figured Dan is pretty sharp on this, the NonCon end is shorter so you can add a high BC tip to it, fit in the magazine and rock and roll! The Solid portion would also serve as a Boat Tail, even increasing that BC. Of course, used as a solid, you have the famous "Hollow Base" design we discovered as well! Good lord, what a bullet!

HEH HEH HEH.....

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
I am afraid to ask but how much?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Thanks Boom!

I do have something for you, I almost forgot in all the hubub about the stocks! I did get a test in the other day with the Raptors, with the TIPS! I found bottom end of terminal performance as well.

Here is what things look like with the Multi Purpose ESP Raptor!




First test with the tips inserted was standard full load in 308. And the destruction was massive, perfect shear, zero issues at all.



Second test was some less velocity than I tested last in the low velocity tests, and I found the point at which they do not shear reliably, just call it 1700 fps with the 130 ESP Raptor. 1 did shear, two did not. The two that did not also lost stability and were full sideways, but tip missing. I speculate the tip caused the instability, and when it got sideways broke out.



With the added tips Dan says the BC is around .300 on this bullet from the tests they have done, actually he says it is slightly higher, but is willing to call it .300. At this it will be over 400 + yards before dropping to that velocity, at 308 Winchester Velocities! Of course, in the larger capacity cartridges that range will extend quite a bit. You do the math.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

It's all a fella can do just to keep up with the read

Paul, I know the feeling! This crowd is hard to keep up with, especially when things start rolling!


OK, I have a deer report this morning! I loaded a few of the 130 Raptors last week for my remodel contractor and friend of mine. He hunts deer every weekend, and shoots a 308 and I have been loading normally 150 Hornadys for him the last few years. Which has been a great bullet for him. Well today he tells me he wants nothing but Raptors from now on! He shot a doe the other day, "Doe Day" for meat mostly. I got a pretty detailed report, and pleased with that. I loaded the Raptors to around 2850 fps in his rifle, and they shot to the same POI as his standard Hornady load, so there was no downside on POI. Where he shot the other day is only around 65 yards, so it was close.

The bullet entered left side, quartering away, so not a severe rear raking shot, about in between from what I can gather. The entrance hit a rib going in, tore a huge hole shown to me about 4 inches in diameter on the entrance, with liver hanging out of the entrance. Left lung completely torn in half, massive damage to right lung. Something hit spine and damaged 3 vertebrate??? Was not the bullet, as the main bullet exited on the right shoulder. Exit was a 30 caliber exit hole. Everything in between was totally destroyed I am told. Excessive damage to vital organs and tissues, very little to no meat damage at all, a good point for the meat hunters I suppose. Heart was not damaged or hit. It was bang, flop. No running, not even a step, bang and drop to the dirt.

This is reported direct to me not 15 minutes ago. I give it to you as it was given to me. First words were, "That is one Bad Ass Bullet".

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
Boomie, I have to tip my hat to you and Michael and all the other nuts over at the Term. Bullet thread - it's intersting!

The hurdle, as I figure, is this: why buy one of these new AR tipped bullets, when Barnes is already up and running (at least in terms of .375 and sub, tipped bullets)?

The option of putting on/taking off tips might be the answer - but I'm hard pressed to think of a time in North Am. where you'd need that interchangeability in the field? Maybe in Grizz country - a tipped one in the chamber w/noncons in the mag?

At any rate - cool idea! And the "shoot it twice"...that's pretty neat too!

friar

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I appreciate JTP! Man, I might just screw old JTP into doing some of this small bore work! It drives me insane, the small bores!

Well guess what? I got to play with my 338 WSM today, and the incredible 225 gr ESP Raptor! Notice some excitement here? Yep! For Sure, thank god to be testing at least a medium bore-WITH NO STABILITY ISSUES, thank you very much!

I have played 338 WSM for many years, from the day 300WSM stepped on the scene, I had one converted to 338! Both my rifles are 22 inch barrels, and of course both of them Winchester M70s, is there anything else? Not to me! Sad thing is, I have never used one in the field, all the time there was always something more important to take to the field, and we all know sometimes field time is limited! Shame, it's a wonderful little cartridge.

A few years ago I had Brian build one for me and it's the one I was shooting today. I have worked up several loads, even had pressure data too on many. Typical load was a 225 gr 338 with 62/RL 15. Depending on the bullet gives me 2650 fps on average with anything at 225. Yesterday I tried the 225 ESP Raptor, dropped it to 61/RL 15, 2785 fps, but a little sticky. So today, I dropped the load to 60/RL 15 and loaded the test loads for todays terminals. I did not try the load before hand, could have been a mistake, but I think not! I am finding two grs less powder with this Raptor is giving me about 100 fps more velocity! Hmmmmmm?





I started out getting POI at 50 yards. Loaded 2 rounds each, Standard NonCon--Talon Tipped NonCon, and of course Solid. Total, 6 rounds. This is the POI for those 6 at 50 yards. If I could shoot better this would be better too!



The test ran easy as could be. Starting with the Raptor in it's Standard NonCon configuration! If you go back to where we tested every 338 caliber bullet on the market, every one we could get our hands on, none of those gave penetration further than 18 inches as I recall.



I almost had the perfect test, then I remembered that I FORGOT to put the 3 inch witness card in, so I only got two rounds on the witness card for the NonCon.




Now, we add the Talon Tip and impact picks up quite a bit at 50 yds. As does performance, both trauma and penetration, in true BBW#13 Style.



I thought trauma was massive with just the NonCon. With the Talon Tip added, and the extra velocity gained at impact, it went to EXTREME massive trauma inflicted. Trauma was immense to around 10 inches. These 4 rounds made absolute mush out of the medium.



Now I figured the Solid part was going dive deep. So I used all the material I had left to give me a full 64 inch box of test medium. I needed it too! Had I not done so, they would have passed through.




This is an incredible bullet! Just incredible. I have never worked with a 338 caliber bullet that is so capable.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
FYI Just in case you medium bore people missed this. Looks like a good bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now I am not in this bullet business, so that has no bearing, but I know Shooters and Gun folks very well, and you know, I hate to say this, but you bastards are CHEAP! Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
There will be a 358 or two.
I'm hoping for a 180 and 225.
Yes a 180 grain 35 in the 35 Rem will be outstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Just asking but is it a good thing that there are fragments on all the testings. I have always thought that bullet makers want bullet weight retention.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Here is yesterdays work with the .338 225 ESP Raptor, 338 Ultra.












Now I really have to tell a short story about testing the Solid end of the Raptor, with the 338 Ultra. The other day when I first filled the boxes with test medium, I still had some medium in the back that was untouched, so I added to that and went forward with it. At some point I had put 3 big thick dry catalogs in the very back of the box, to prevent an unexpected pass through while testing the various Raptors, should something exceed my expectations. This particular box has a 2X4 across the top, I can't see the last 4 inches of test medium in the back of the box. So these dry catalogs remained back there, I had forgot.

Testing the Raptors as solids in the 338 WSM and it's velocity, 58 inches, I knew at the higher velocity the Raptors in the 338 Ultra would burn through 64 inches, and out the back, so I backed the first box up, with the second box, as normal for deep diving BBW#13 Solids. I fired the first two, looked at the back, NO EXIT??? Hmmmmm?????? Moved the box over to make sure it was lined up for the next two in the series, and again No Exit??? Checking the witness cards as I moved back in the box I got to the part under that 2X4, and there were the dry catalogs perfect 4 holes in them, and in the last one was ALL 4 Of the Raptors, 100% dead straight penetration, all stuck nose forward in that last Norther tool Equipment catalog! Dry as a chip! If it had not been for that, they would have burned through to I don't know where? I gave it 64 Inches.









Michael

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Mine is not nearly as scientific but I thought I would repost some old tests I did on some 338 bullets and one gallon water jugs. Since we have a medium bore testing, I thought I'd contribute.


185 Barnes TTSX-2650 FPS-penetrated through 6 water jugs-184 grains
200 Fusion- 2660 FPS- found in 5th water jug- 167 grains
200 Interlock- 2550 FPS- Found in 5th water jug- 135 grains
200 SST- 2500 FPS- Found in 4th water jug- core separation- 148 grains
215 Sierra- 2450 FPS- penetrated 7 water jugs no expansion- 212 grains


The only real surprise for me was the 215 Sierra Gameking. It's built very stout and wouldn't expand at moderate velocities.

quote:

Dear Sam:
I’m here in our camp in Rifa along the banks of the Zambezi River, reflecting on my hunts of the past season. I appreciate the cartridges you sent over loaded with the #13 solids and the Non-Con bullets. Their performance was truly remarkable.

The calibers that were used on my hunts included the .577 Nitro Express, .416 Remington Mag, and the .300 Jarrett.

I personally used my .577 to take down a charging hippo, a fleeing wounded Cape buffalo, and a backup shot on a trophy bull elephant. The bullets devastating and immediate shock and stopping power on the animals was as dramatic as I’ve witnessed in my 17 year professional hunting career. In all three cases, the animals hit the ground within seconds. The charging hippo plowed into the ground at my feet, the elephant dropped where it stood, and the fleeing Cape buffalo received a “Texas heart shot” and went down within 10-15 yards. I recovered the bullet from the buffalo under the hide of the chest. The bullet had blown through 5 feet of muscle, gut, and bone.

Most recently, my friend Doug Stein and I hunted Cape buffalo and various species of plains game. Doug was using the Non-Con bullet in his model 70 Winchester in .416 Remington mag. We ambushed a large mature buffalo after a brief stalk and Doug placed a shot behind the shoulder from approximately 35 yards. The stunning and swift shock on the buffalo’s system had him stumbling within a split second. The wounded buff tried to run with the other buffalo, however, he pulled up within 30 yards allowing Doug the time to place a 2nd shot behind the opposite shoulder. The 2nd shot literally swept the buffalo off his feet. I can tell you the geyser of blood rising from the wound was like none I have seen. Without being too graphic and over descriptive, I tell you this to properly describe the extraordinary amount of instantaneous hemorrhaging of the wound channel. Upon inspection of the buff’s vitals, I was amazed at the severity of the bullet wound including the multiple secondary wound channels from the bullet petals. No long walk required to follow up this buff!

Additionally, I was able to witness the .30 caliber Non-Con bullets used on a variety of other plains game species from Doug’s trusty .300 Jarrett. Without exception, each animal dropped in its tracks. The .30 caliber bullets included the plastic tip to help stabilize the bullets on longer shots over 200+ yards. The bullets performed with remarkable and consistent accuracy on each shot.
I plan to continue using these bullets in my rifle on all my future hunts. Thanks again for introducing me to these wonderful bullets.

Regards,

Cliff Walker
Professional Hunter
Walker/Watson African Safaris
wwalkerwatson@aol.com
Bulawayo, Zimbabwe

Cliff Walker
Walker & Watson Safaris
Cell: + 263 712 215 240
Cell: + 263 772 116 254
Office: Kerry + 263 9 240908
Office email: wwalkerwatson@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Just asking but is it a good thing that there are fragments on all the testings. I have always thought that bullet makers want bullet weight retention.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
The 340gr .395 is doing exactly what we require of it.
1. Assured mushrooming from 1500fps impact as borne out by the 1600fps picture.
2. 100% retention up to 2400fps impact, for when speeds are at the level where weight retention is more important than speed, in forming the final wound channel depth and volume.
3. Petals all gone at 2600fps plus, for when speed and wetted shape is more important than weight, for the formation of the final wound channel depth and volume.

This is the widest single-bullet window of application I could possibly hope for and one that can normally only be equalled by a multiple combination of bullets and loads....

I note that:
1. Water penetration depth is more than three and a half feet. On game this will translate to exit holes on any angle shot on any size animal under 4000lbs and there does not exist a game animal that will stop the bullet on a broadside shot, if the bullet is launched at 2700fps and impacts are inside 300m.
2. The petals made close to the same penetration depth as the bullet shanks. It is a common misunderstanding that, when the petals come off, for some strange reason they stop penetrating. They do not stop penetrating and each will go their own damaging way. The good thing is that there are three at the most and not hundreds of microscopic dust fragments......

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

..Bullets with equal momentum will give equal penetration if all else is equal such as diameter, 100% weight retention and nose shape. That is not theory, it is fact. It also works with bullets that differ widely in weight and those that are closer together. So agreeing to disagree does not change the fact that you are labouring under a misconception. Sorry to be blunt but science is on my side here.

Both your calculation methods (momentum and energy) are incorrect.The correct formula for calculating momentum is weight in lbs multiplied by velocity in feet per second. Therefore a 270 grain bullet at 2950 fps has 270/7000x2950= 113.79 lb-f/s momentum. I do not work this all out manually every time. I work with these values several times a day and use ballistic software. By the way, 2950 fps is a totally realistic speed for a 270 grain bullet. You should try them some time

Your example of a 235 grain bullet at 3300 fps and 300 grain bullet at 2580 having the same momentum is right on the money. If neither bullet breaks up and both have the same nose shape, penetration will be very similar. There are other factors to consider such as the higher pressure generated on the front of the faster bullet and the higher energy level of the faster bullet that adds to the volume of the permanent wound channel.The bottom line is, however, if two bullets retain weight well after impact, and have similar momentum levels, the bullet with more energy will be more effective.

There is no such thing as momentum generated by a light bullet being different from the momentum generated by a heavy bullet. If the numbers are equal, they are equal.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
There has always been the controversy around solids made from brass/bronze. We make all our bullets, solids as well, from copper. There are two reasons: No barrel life issues and better terminal performance. Brass/bronze is easier to machine, cutting tools last longer and, as a raw material it is easier to obtain and cheaper. If we were convinced that using bronze/brass would result in a better bullet, we would use it immediately. The deformation or set back of the nose, seen on some recovered turned copper FN bullets, is intentional and improves terminal performance. Nicks and dents on recovered FN bullets do not influence linear penetration. In our opinion, anything harder than copper simply wears out barrels faster.

The requirement that a solid be in reloadable condition (except for the rifling marks) after being used on a game animal is nonsensical and one of those statements in the "urban legend" category. One wonders who first coined the phrase. It is in the same inane class as: "How can you say the bullet failed? These 24 bullet fragments that total 30% weight retention was recovered from a dead animal. At which point in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?"

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
If the bullet brings the result the hunter expects, it has not failed. Regardless of whether it is recovered or not and regardless of what it looks like when it is recovered. Success cannot be failure.

However, it does not guarantee that the result will be the same, the next time the bullet is used.

It is possible for a bullet shatter completely and bring the game down in the process, but it may not do so every time it shatters. A bullet can bend on impact and tumble, killing the animal in the process, having gone just far enough, but it may not kill reliably every time. When a bullet curves in its path, it could hit a vital organ and kill very effectively. But during the autopsy we will say "Lucky this time, but what about next time?"

We have learned that weight retention with solids is important. We have learned that linear penetration is desirable and that penetration depth must be sufficient to get the job done. We have also learned that we cannot have all this every time. Sometimes things do not happen as planned. So we strive for the best chance at getting it all together. Therefore, when we recover a bullet that has broken, bent or tumbled and failed to give depth and linearity, it is indicative of a problem that should be avoided in future, even though it worked at the time. The learning curve is what sets us apart as intelligent and human.

If a bullet delivers the game every time it is used and recovered bullets show no evidence of tumbling, gives good weight retention and the wound channels go where they are supposed to go, the reliability is noted and we continue to use it.

The number of times I have heard the words "don't know how I missed that one" only to find the animal dead several days later, are many. Sometimes the bullet cannot be blamed and sometimes it can.

Personal experience of bullet failure is what moved me to start making my own. When we strive for perfection in bullet design, even when we come up a little short, we are still in reasonably good shape.

Regarding the deformation of the bullets below.



There is no sign that these bullets tumbled, shed weight or did not deliver more than enough depth of penetration and in a sufficiently straight line. All the elements required for good terminal performance are present, despite what the bullets look like. At GSC we have learned that, in order to be as reliable as possible and to avoid catastrophic failure - severe bending or breaking, the bullet must deform in a predetermined way. The way in which a GSC solid deforms promotes linear penetration, resists tumbling and does not detract from how a good solid should perform. We do not care what it looks like, only that it must work under the widest possible set of conditions.

The way in which these brass and jacketed bullets deformed, does not always promote deep, linear penetration.



Sooner or later the hardest solid will be stressed to the point that it will deform. How it deforms will determine whether it remains a successful solid or whether it will fail.

My definition of a successful solid is:

A bullet that will most frequently deliver the best chance at deep, linear penetration. It should not shed weight and it must maintain a shape that is conducive to linear penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You could single load a tipped round in the chamber for using larger bores on game at longer ranges. Just keep the tips in your pocket or load the first round with a tip. Almost zero added cost or bother.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The thicker the petal ratio per caliber the higher the velocity needed to sheer.
Part of the design is to have the same nose profile for either end on the raptor.

quote:

Originally posted by RiverBear:
the 130gr make me think of my 30-30 tipped in the chamber hollow point in the tube. could crank up the fps on them pretty good

quote:

I would not be fond of fiddling with the task of inserting tips into Raptors whilst in the field- as required, followed by single loading Tipped Raptors-as required.

I like my bolt rifles to feed whatever they will be required to fire;..from a stacked magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by RiverBear:
the 130gr make me think of my 30-30 tipped in the chamber hollow point in the tube. could crank up the fps on them pretty good

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

I would not be fond of fiddling with the task of inserting tips into Raptors whilst in the field- as required, followed by single loading Tipped Raptors-as required.

I like my bolt rifles to feed whatever they will be required to fire;..from a stacked magazine.

TRAX

The entire Raptor series, in all calibers, are designed to fit in most all magazines, with the tip inserted. You insert the tip at the loading bench, not in the field.

What you are thinking about or confused about is the big bore BBW#13 NonCons, but even then, the tips are not inserted in the field, you would have or carry a few tips with you for a longer shot on plains game, while hunting buffalo type scenario, or even carry a tipped in the chamber while in the field, followed by other standard NonCons, or solids.

But REPEAT--Raptors are designed to be used in full magazines, tip inserted, at the bench, not in the field.

Michael