I see his on here from time to time and would really like to know what advantage is there, for the average hunter, of a rifle with a short action versus one with a long action???

That same question can be asked about many things and IMO it's all a matter of personal preference.

IMO there is no advantage at all....the 1/2" shorter bolt stroke is so little as to be negligible and the couple ounces of reduced weight is again not noticeable.

I'd far prefer a .30-06 length case over a .308 length case for it's extra capacity and this too is of questionable value.

For me it's not the marginal weight savings because it's only a few ounces. I like 308 based rounds. They use powder efficiently and are inherently accurate. Their speeds work well with cup and core bullets and they shoot flat enough for as far as I'm capable of shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
For me it's not the marginal weight savings because it's only a few ounces. I like 308 based rounds. They use powder efficiently and are inherently accurate. Their speeds work well with cup and core bullets and they shoot flat enough for as far as I'm capable of shooting.

Well said.

I see no inherent advantage in the action length, other than it allows me to have the particular cartridge I want.

I'm sure there is a certain amount of benchrest inspired esoterica that may be valid, but for my purposes the above covers it.

gotta have something different to sell to somebody

The theoretical advantage is that a short action will be subject to less "flex" when fired than a long one. Might be important if you're looking for .001" groups, not applicable in a hunting rifle IMHO.

The advantages of short actions over long actions are real and many. First, consider that the short action requires less steel to construct. The weight saved allows the hunter to carry additional items without a net gain in his load. For example, he can add $2.33 in pocket change, or carry a bowie knife with a longer blade, or toss a couple of extra cartridges in his belt to make up for the limited magazine capacity of the short, fat caliber his rifle is now chambered in.

Next, consider that a rifle with a short action is, by necessity, shorter. By carrying a rifle 3/4" shorter the hunter will no longer need to weave his way through trees and brush. The shorter rifle allows him to hang his rifle on the back window of a compact/mini pickup truck. He can also use the extra space afforded in his gun-slip to carry an extra pair of socks. Alternatively, the overall rifle length saved by using a short action can be used to increase the barrel length of the rifle. A longer barrel increases bullet velocity and can offset the lower velocity of the short cartridge.

Finally, consider that a rifle with a short action requires less distance for the bolt-stroke. After decades of computer use, most hunter's fingers have become accustomed to the short movements required to type on a keyboard. The long action requires a long bolt-stroke - too much for the computer generation hunter to accomplish. While a short action rifle can be delicately manipulated with modern dainty digits.

It is a wonder that anyone chooses to use the long action in light of all the short action has going for it.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
For me it's not the marginal weight savings because it's only a few ounces. I like 308 based rounds. They use powder efficiently and are inherently accurate. Their speeds work well with cup and core bullets and they shoot flat enough for as far as I'm capable of shooting.

This is true.

Like most guys now in the UK and Ireland, I shoot sound moderated rifles all the time.

For these rifles, the short action 308 based rounds are much more suitable, they give up less velocity in a short barrel (20"), and most critically from my perspective, the shorter the action and barrel, the closer I can get that heavy sound mod to my left hand. This makes a huge difference to the usuability of the rifle.

A 24" 270 with a big heavy moderator is a nightmare to carry, and very slow to bring into action with any degree of dexterity.

However, if I was not moderating the rifle, I couldn't care less what size the action and cartridge case are.

A bit longer action has never bothered me. Thing I like most about nearly every .308 based chambering Ive ever had is they are sooo easy to load for.. The manotany of "working up a load" seems to suddenly go microwavable. Sometimes others are like that as well, Ive got a 35 Whelen that thinks its a BR rifle. But when you get a new 308, load up some middle of the road load on a whim and your already @ 1.25" @100 yds or better, I think thats what some guys mean when they say inherint accuracy and its a nice perk..

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The advantages of short actions over long actions are real and many. First, consider that the short action requires less steel to construct. The weight saved allows the hunter to carry additional items without a net gain in his load. For example, he can add $2.33 in pocket change, or carry a bowie knife with a longer blade, or toss a couple of extra cartridges in his belt to make up for the limited magazine capacity of the short, fat caliber his rifle is now chambered in.

Next, consider that a rifle with a short action is, by necessity, shorter. By carrying a rifle 3/4" shorter the hunter will no longer need to weave his way through trees and brush. The shorter rifle allows him to hang his rifle on the back window of a compact/mini pickup truck. He can also use the extra space afforded in his gun-slip to carry an extra pair of socks. Alternatively, the overall rifle length saved by using a short action can be used to increase the barrel length of the rifle. A longer barrel increases bullet velocity and can offset the lower velocity of the short cartridge.

Finally, consider that a rifle with a short action requires less distance for the bolt-stroke. After decades of computer use, most hunter's fingers have become accustomed to the short movements required to type on a keyboard. The long action requires a long bolt-stroke - too much for the computer generation hunter to accomplish. While a short action rifle can be delicately manipulated with modern dainty digits.

It is a wonder that anyone chooses to use the long action in light of all the short action has going for it.

You hate sarcastic people , dont you--



SSR

Lever actions are a good reason for short cartridges.

In my bolt actions, I prefer the long action.
Lever actions may be different. My only lever is a Savage 99, which is only short action. I like it just that way, too.

I understand Browning BLR's come in long action, and the feel is different. I haven't shot any BLR, so I don't know.

quote:

would really like to know what advantage is there, for the average hunter, of a rifle with a short action

There really isn't any, it's magazine writer BS.

Given a factory hunting rifle shooting common ammo and firing hunting bullets, any hopeful ideas of "inherent" accuracy of short actions or short cartridges is also a delusion.

My 12 year old boy can shoot a short action rifle like my 7mm08 while he would not be happy to shoot the 280 Ackley imp.

For bush hunting a shot action 20 inch barrelled 358 Win is brilliant and easy to shoot quickly while the 24 inch barrelled long action rifle like my 9.3X62 is less versatile in the bush at less than 50 meters range for quick snap shooting.

For me the short action (308 Win in my case) gives me a short, light and handy rifle in a calibre that take care of our deer size animals and is accurate.

Hunting alpine terrain, weight is an issue, and for me the short action Kimber Montana is spot on.


Difference in size between a Ruger M77, 35 Whelen bolt and the Kimber 308 Win bolt. Same boltface by the way.




For me it boils down to weight and handyness.
Perhaps a 270 Win could have been built just as light, buth then this Kimber sat there in the rack, and went home with me

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
That same question can be asked about many things and IMO it's all a matter of personal preference.

IMO there is no advantage at all....the 1/2" shorter bolt stroke is so little as to be negligible and the couple ounces of reduced weight is again not noticeable.

I'd far prefer a .30-06 length case over a .308 length case for it's extra capacity and this too is of questionable value.

In a M700 there are 2 action lengths, too short & too long.

The M700 "long action" is actually a magnum length action & it is about 7/8" longer than a "short action" M700.

In this particular case, there is a significant weight difference in the barreled actions alone.

The M98 action has a much better selection in action lengths W/the various "intermediate length" actions such as the LR M48 Yugo, VZ500, etc. The SR Mexicans are even lighter. These actions are ideal for the 7X57 based "short action" cartridges such as 6mm Rem, 257 Roberts, etc.

Then of course there are the various military cartridges that are also ideally suited to this length action, 6.5 X 55, 7 X 57, 8 X 57, etc. These LR, IL actions can easily acommodate COAL of around 3.25" W/O major surgery & the Mexican SR 98s have room to add length on the front of the magazine box to accomodate the same COAL.

The "standard length" LR M98 action is only 1/4" longer, but surprisingly it can add almost 8 oz to the weight of a comparable rifle when the extra length of the action, stock & appropriately scaled larger scope is considered. I have lengthened these actions to accomodate COAL of 3.375" merely by using a mill file to open up the magazine box front & rear walls by thinning.

Then of course we have the true "magnum length" M98 actions.

In a "nut shell", when a shorter action length is used for a total package utilizing scaled down components to match the asthetic (balanced) dimensions such as a shorter fore end on the stock & slightly shorter scope, one can save enough weight to make a significant wieght savings even when the same length barrel is utilized.

My Oberndorf VZ500 based 8X57 rifle weighs in @ 7# W/a 23 1/2" barrel & a Leupold VX-II 3-9 X 40 scope on standard Leupold steel rings/bases.
A Compact 3-9 Leuppy would shave several more ozs off that weight & look even more balanced. (my next optics purchase on the "wish list" when I get back to work)

It would be hard to get a standard length LR M98 action based rifle down to 7# W/a 23 1/2" barrel & full sized scope using standard off the shelf steel components & a "proper" wood stock. 7 1/2# yes, but that's a significant difference after a long day packing a rifle around.

I have some of both and have never had a problem with weight nor short stroking. Nor hunting in the woods with a "magnum" length barrel (24-26") I have never bought nor passed up a rifle because it was a short action or not.
I think it mostly like the gun writers: they've GOT to write about something. And it seems "cause I wanted one" is not a good enough reason for buying a new rifle to most folks. They've got to justify it in some manner. And so they trade in their .280 for a 7-08 and then bore the bejesus out of you about the great weight savings and the efficiency of a short action.

Grenadier, you are too funny, but I agree with you. I never found the need for a "short action" rifle, but I've got a .300 WSM that's great for the small stuff. I love it; accurate, durable -- it is a bit heavy for a light rifle, but it works. Only problem is, I'd rather carry one rifle that can do it all.

For the non anal there isn't any real difference between the short action and the "long or 06 length action" from a hunters point of view... the bolt toss has been brought up from time to time..I figure anyone that would short stroke any bolt action can't chew gun and walk at the same time, and there are those!

That said, I do like the action to fit the caliber as a matter of cosmetics if nothing else.

Any practical difference comes down to one thing.....Operator headspace.

Many Thanks for all the responses Gentlemen. My overall suspicions were confirmed about the Real World advantages/disadvantages of one length action over the other.

Of special interest are Rhys comment about Operator Headspace

Grenadier's analysis is a classic in its own right and should be required reading for beginning hunters/shooters that are concerned about such subjects. Sir I salute you.

actualy, yeah...
if you want a shorter round, they'll feed better from a shorter action, aebe

and they are kinda cool

It was just one of those things I had wondered about, and especially as it pertained to the average hunter/shooter that did not spend a lot of time at the bench or only did a half dozen or so hunts a season.

The advantage is when someone puts a pistol to your head and marches you into a gunstore, you have to buy one of each.

Shoot a Super Short and you have something.
Not enough diference between 2.9" and 3.34"
2.25" and 3.34" there is a good diference.

I don't know why anyone hasn't mentioned that the shorter action is stiffer and thus prone to better accuracy. That is the way benchresters look at it.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
I don't know why anyone hasn't mentioned that the shorter action is stiffer and thus prone to better accuracy. That is the way benchresters look at it.

then why is the 338 Lapua accurate
I'll put one on a WSSM LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
I don't know why anyone hasn't mentioned that the shorter action is stiffer and thus prone to better accuracy. That is the way benchresters look at it.

And an argument could be made that the one piece scope mount tends to stiffen the action over a two piece mount but in the real world of box guns and hunting, it's really full of sound and fury and signifys nothing.

[quote]for the average hunter,quote]

Ain't never seen a damn piece of paper that would make good loin chops!!!

Also ain't seen too many whitetails that would stand there letting a person pop off 3 or 4 shots at them trying for a group.

Only time I shoot from a bench is to make sure I can let the air and fluid out of some critter with a particular load I have worked up, and it don't take me that many shots to know whether that load is good or not.

I guess it all adds up. No singel item will make a good shooter. But if you shoot fractioanlly better in a short action, and then choose a little bit better scope, do a little more reasearch in your handloads, get a new stock, and so on, you will shoot better. (assuming you train the same).

STIG

I prefer long actions even if I'm building a rifle for a short action round. When developing a load it is often necessary to increase the OAL to get near the lands. The short action mag doesn't allow this in many cases. The 6.5/284 is a prime example. Using a long action for a short round can develope some feeding problems but they can be fixed. Just MHO......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The advantages of short actions over long actions are real and many. First, consider that the short action requires less steel to construct. The weight saved allows the hunter to carry additional items without a net gain in his load. For example, he can add $2.33 in pocket change, or carry a bowie knife with a longer blade, or toss a couple of extra cartridges in his belt to make up for the limited magazine capacity of the short, fat caliber his rifle is now chambered in.

Next, consider that a rifle with a short action is, by necessity, shorter. By carrying a rifle 3/4" shorter the hunter will no longer need to weave his way through trees and brush. The shorter rifle allows him to hang his rifle on the back window of a compact/mini pickup truck. He can also use the extra space afforded in his gun-slip to carry an extra pair of socks. Alternatively, the overall rifle length saved by using a short action can be used to increase the barrel length of the rifle. A longer barrel increases bullet velocity and can offset the lower velocity of the short cartridge.

Finally, consider that a rifle with a short action requires less distance for the bolt-stroke. After decades of computer use, most hunter's fingers have become accustomed to the short movements required to type on a keyboard. The long action requires a long bolt-stroke - too much for the computer generation hunter to accomplish. While a short action rifle can be delicately manipulated with modern dainty digits.

It is a wonder that anyone chooses to use the long action in light of all the short action has going for it.

You hate sarcastic people , dont you--



SSR

Yeah, I bet he does...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
That same question can be asked about many things and IMO it's all a matter of personal preference.

IMO there is no advantage at all....the 1/2" shorter bolt stroke is so little as to be negligible and the couple ounces of reduced weight is again not noticeable.

I'd far prefer a .30-06 length case over a .308 length case for it's extra capacity and this too is of questionable value.

Very Well Said.

My beliefs exactly


Snake

Nobody has mentioned the usefulness of the rifle down the road if the owner is inclined to rechamber/rebarrel to something different.
In that light, the standard length action is more versatile. But, if that consideration is off the table, then really, no discernable benefit of one over the other.