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A guide who professes to use a .22-250 for elk in NM is one who either doesn't understand the law or doesn't care. Every guide I have ever hunted with knows the difference between a .243 Win and a .30-06. PD: you hunt bears; what do you think the first question Cabot Pitts asked me when I booked my brown bear hunt last year? First question my PH asked me on leopard in June? First question my PH/guide asked me for water buff in Australia in Aug? Prior experience, physical conditioning, and caliber are all things PHs and guides with whom I have hunted express interest. | |||
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Dave knows a thing or three about killing.....others should take notes ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I don't place much faith in charts, too many varibles..As many elk as Ive shot with light calibers, I, today, will profess the 308 or 30-06 class of cartridges are my minimum for big bulls..Even at that I seen both kill well and fail with properly placed rounds of poor construction..I place bullet construction as important as properly placed shots. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Agree with you Ray. Not arguing a .222 won't kill an elk, but there are better choices. | |||
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My first choice is the .338 Win Mag. My second choice is any of the .300 Mags with 200gr Nosler Partitions or 180gr Barnes X bullets. These calibers will allow you to take a elk from any angle. | |||
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The guide that let my daughter sit on one his baits (for free). Asked her what caliber she was using right off the bat. But then he stated that a guy using a 32special missed a bear and that is more powerful than a 06. They might ask but not all of them are gun guys. You know 32 is bigger than 30. There are guides that you can have an intelligent conversation with on rifles. The majority when you start talking fine details don't have a clue. | |||
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I think that's an accurate statement. Mostly guides know that when a bullet from a centerfire rifle is placed in an animal's vitals then the animal dies. In a way, their wisdom greatly exceeds those of us who are deep into cartridges, projectiles, and ballistics. The truth is that there is very little difference in the effectiveness of most cartridges -- much less than we imagine. If a shot inflicts sufficient trauma on an animal's vital organs it will die. That's what most guides know about rifles. | |||
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 Amen!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Stonecreek, You are spot on with the guide thing...and to most of them a rifle is just another tool.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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We who are long time hunters , can all tell stories of bullet proof animals. Just this year i saw a guy shoot a little fork fork mule deer right behind the shoulder and then another guy shoot him again with same load. I watched the buck run through my favorite scope and he was defiantly all tore up, I shot him with my 150 grin .308 and all 3 were good hits , he finaly droped after running at least 250 yards after the first shot... | |||
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^^ Excellent point. I prefer to use a .416 (as well as other high speed 40+ calibers) on Elk. For positive smack down. And for practicality. Well-suited for packing in big Bear territory. | |||
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The last two elk shot with the 243 is what I witnessed the one and only time I saw and elk killed with a 243. The elk died but was not very emphatic. The 2nd scenario is very unethical, and will not comment anymore. I have seen/used 243-375 on elk. Shot placement is paramount. No matter the caliber/cartridge, as is a suitable bullet. My personal preference for elk is a 338-06 with 200-210gr bullets. But if I had my 22-250 with 53gr TSX's in my hand, I am positive the freezer would be filled. Obviously there are a lot of combinations that will put an elk on the ground. But what I like about the bigger cartridges/diameter is the animals reaction after the bullet impacts. My 80 year Dad got his elk last weekend with a 270 and 150gr NPT's. My good friend will be going after his elk with a 300WSM and 150gr Nosler Ballistic Silvertips. | |||
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Back about 1994 or 95, I saw a hunter put down a decent 5x5 with one shot from a .270 using 150 grain Nosler Partitions and a brand new range finder showed the range at 550 yards. At the hit the elk staggered about 10 yards went down and never moved until wev rolled him on his back and gutted him! It all depends on the hunter and their ability to put the bullet where it needs to go. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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After seeing plenty of elk take a great shot from a multitude of different cartridges I see no correlation with cartridge or caliber and reaction to the bullet striking. Some elk do and some don't show an indication of being hit, no matter what you hit them with. It depends far more on where hit than with what.... | |||
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That has been my experience as limited as it is on elk, but it works out the same on other critters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Yes, I agree with your statement. From my post above. | |||
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It is sad to hear that a young boys early hunting was so tainted by these experiences. Today, you could use an exotic bullet like the CEB Raptor and find post mortem evidence of the bullet used that killed the animal. A partition would leave bits of lead where the brass or copper Raptor would leave telltale petals. I remember one hunt where several hunters shot at the same animal. Lucky was the pigs name. If we found the animal, we could have found out who killed it because I used big bore pistol bullets, one used brass bullets and the other I think was a lead cup and core bullet. Today people use technology to film the bullet flight path. The thrill of the hunt is the true trophy even though he might not have gone home with the meat. It is interesting to find a way to document or prove the kill shot on a hunt of a lifetime. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I'll throw in my two cents worth.....so far I've killed four elk.....certainly not the number many of you have taken....but I've taken all four of them with four shots.....one with a .280 Rem, one with a .35 Whelen, and two with a .30-06. Only the elk taken with the .280 Rem ran off after the shot but not very far..... While there is no statistical significance to any of this, it does seem to me that caliber isn't the critical issue.....it's shot placement.... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have killed 8 and used a .300 Weatherby, .340 Weatherby, .35 Whelen and .375 H&H, and in all cases if I did my job, the bullet did its job. Shot placement is everything, regardless of the caliber, if the hunter can't place that first shot where it needs to go, the results won't be as was desired. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Yep, and of those cartridges you named, the .35 Whelen was the most efficient for the species, while imparting the least amount of felt-recoil relative to the others. None better for that task. All The Best ... | |||
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Felt recoil only affects me when shooting at paper from the bench. If my target has hair on it, I never feel the recoil. I am a firm believer that a sensitivity to recoil is a direct result of spending to much time at the bench trying for tight groups. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Looking at this from the otherside of the globe I'd suggest anyone who intends to find themself snowed in and in need of a good book get a hold of Ken Pearces "Walking them up" https://www.angusrobertson.com...arce/p/9780958573269 - the same arguments for and against bigbores for elk get done to death by sambar hunters on forums and round campfires. Ken's key premise is turn of the century military cartridges were designed for a 100kg soldier not a 250kg+ deer that evolved evading tigers and lives in thick brush where hoof prints can only be followed a few months of the year... He advocates the .338WM as a sensible choice but prefers his .458WM... roll on page 3! Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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I am sure it works. | |||
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Ive been back and fourth on this subject from time to time over many years, still may change my mind from time to time.. Probably the least caliber I use on elk is the 30-06 and its a good option for elk with "todays premium bullets", and again it's probably a good choice for most hunters as recoil is moderate and if one uses proper bullets, may be as good as any caliber.. Thinking back the only problem I had with he 30-06 was it took several shot to get a big bull down, so I went to larger calibers and swore by them for elk, but that was during the late 40s and early 50s and bullets were not as reliable..It just occurred to me that Ive never had that problem with today premium bullets with partitions and soldered cores.. Todays bullets have changed the picture dramatically, I need to keep that in mind, old beliefs and habits are hard to break. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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That's funny right there, some people will come up with all kinds of excuses not to shoot their rifles, that one right there is right up there with the best lame excuses I ever heard. I disagree with that train of thought completely. Practice, practice practice, bench and field shooting there is no harm in it whatsoever except you may become a reliable shot on game. | |||
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.....wow....you nailed it..... That said I do believe that a lot of shooting from a bench WITHOUT HEARING PROTECTION is quite unfavorable to good field shooting. I am convinced that serious noise to the audio system is much more damaging than the recoil from most centerfire rifles.....especially those normally used for "plains game" hunting which includes elk. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Each of us has our own opinions and those personal opinions have got each of us to where we are at today. If an individual is successful on their hunts using the methods they have developed over time who can prove them wrong???? Just because something does not work for one person does that mean it will not work for another? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Me and another hunter shot 2 moose together at 240 yards. I used a 7mm mag with Trophy bonded Tipped reloaded with 71gr of H1000. He used factory Federal 160gr Nosler Partitions We recovered the Partition against the ribs on far side, my 160gr Trophy Bonded Tipped passed thru the ribs. Seems 7mm is ok for Moose. in fairness his Moose was bigger so that may have been the difference. I have killed several Elk with my 270 Win but would not use anything smaller. | |||
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I gleaned some wisdom early on from some of the writers in Shooting Times and Guns and Ammo. The wisdom is, in short, use the largest caliber and load that you can shoot comfortably. NRA Benefactor Member | |||
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.277 to .375, 130 to 270 grns, 2500+ fps All, else is just personal preference Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I put a properly loaded 7mm/08 and 7x57 into the same "class" as the .280/.270; some will disagree, I'm sure. Smaller calibers, milder rounds and pistols all fall into the "special use" area. Some get to hunt this way, most do not. The public land hunts are just toxic to me anymore, I don't do them very often anymore. I once asked two guides in a Houston wildlife expo about this. One told me that the 7mm Rem mag was best because "you have to shock an elk". The other told me the 300 Magnums were best "because their bullets tumble in the air on the way". I wasn't impressed with their ballistic acumen but they did have good success. OTOH, I had a Canadian guide in Tulsa tell me the best calibers on moose were the .308 & 30-06. Shoot them, leave them alone and they will go lay down and die. Blast them with a magnum and they run into the water, etc. Go figure, ha. | |||
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I recall in the old gun rags, one scribe decided elk cartridges has to be judged by animal weight and that may be so to some extent but he declared, using a 100 yard quote that a 600 pound cow needed at least a 30-06 but a 1000 lb. bull needed at least a 300 Win mag..I doubt that using weight as a criteria was even worth talking about, and I could never see any difference in killing effect between the two as to that. All the 300s do is give you another 50 or more yards in trajectory..and its not that complicated, under hunting conditions I suspect on the light side a 7x57 or 308 will getcha by but a 338 or 9.3 is a little better. However I knew a lady that killed her bull every year out the kitchen window or back door with a 22-250 and 60 gr. Hornady bullets I loaded for her. One in the heart lungs seemed to do the trick every time at her 50 or 75 yard hay stack, which tells me range and bullet placement means a lot..Ive killed a horse and a couple of bulls that crossed the Rio grande back in the days of Hoof and Mouth desease with a 22-250 and a 222 Rem on the ranch. The gov. River Riders were issued Win. 94s in 25-35 or 30-30, they bought them and the gov. paid for them back then...They all said the both guns were all they needed for cattle and horses, all shots were within a 100 yards Im sure in that Texas brush along the Rio Grande... A consideration when one talks about a rancher or guides hunting guns..Those guys are out there all season, and the animal or animals they kill are targets of opertunity, taken under the best of circumstance such as when horseback a bull gets up and stares at them ,thy pull out their 30-30 or 300 SAvage and wack him, gut him and go about their daily job, picked him up on the way back to camp or home..Done it myself many times when ranching or guiding hunters on my ranch in the big bend of texas..But a paying hunter on a high dollar deer or elk hunt should arm himself with the best of equipment and rifle as his time is limited and a mistake or two could be expensive and no beef...I love the 25-35 and 30-30 but Ive never taken them to Africa or on a paid hunt, they are my meat guns behind the house. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Many years ago on an Elk hunt in Wyoming the guide used a Winchester Pre 64 Model 70 in 243 for all his personal hunting including Elk. He was a very good shot and worked within the limitations of the caliber. As is often expressed for African dangerous game hunting, use the largest caliber you can shoot well. A well placed 375 H&H is much more effective than a poor shot with a 460 Weatherby. Extending that concept to a youth hunter, if he/she is a good shot and works within the limitations of a 243 (Reasonable range, broadside shot, etc.) I would see nothing wrong with the 243. As noted, even a well placed shot with a large caliber on an Elk does not always drop them on the spot. The advantage I see with the larger calibers is the higher probability of an exit wound and easier tracking | |||
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Where I live and where I hunt there are lots of elk and it can be easy or hard, depending on the day..I seen times I could have killed my cow with a 22 L.R. or 243, othertimes I needed a quad 50...but I have about a month to pull the trigger, so there are circumstances.. Were I a paying hunter, with all the expense of a guided hunt I would not use a 243, 250-3000 or any light caliber, I would opt for the largest caliber I could shoot accuratly were it a 30-06, 7x57, 257 Robts or a 375 H&H.. As to suitable elk cartridges it depends on where you hunt, elk populations, hunt circumstances, your shooting skills, time on hand, normal ranges, all these things come into play..then you make your own decision, don't let someone else make it for you.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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^^^This is the correct response to the unethical acts of the game snipers.^^^ Only the foolish try to pull off impossibly long shots. The wise close distance. It's a lot wiser to shoot at a hundred than farther. | |||
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Ray B, Which cartridges would you assume to be unsuitable for killing elk? | |||
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I put a 160 grain Partition fired from my7MM Rem Mag through the heart of a massive bull. The exit wound was about an inch in diameter. He wandered to his bedding area and dropped. Huge exit wound, no blood trail. A working heart is necessary for a blood trail to follow. But then again, you won't have to follow too far an animal that's not sending oxygenated blood topside. | |||
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I shot a 5x5 bull on Flattop Mt maybe 7 years ago at 20 yards in the black timber with a 150g Partition at 3000 fps from my 270. It dropped in mid run, the tree behind it looked like someone had painted it red with a 4" brush. It wouldn't have dropped any faster from my 500 Jeffery. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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+1. Wisdom | |||
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Generally speaking ..... proper shot placement from an accurate and properly sighted rifle kills big game. Match the cartridge to the skill of the hunter and the maximum distance one intends to shoot. I say. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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