I am always thinking of what caliber I might want next. I guess many of us are like this. Anyhow the .338 Federal has caught my eye. Being I don't have a sporting rifle in a bore dia. larger than .308 and I don't need a magnum loading for whitetail or black bear it could fit the bill. However I load and shoot 8x57 for mil surp rifles and know it is a very good round in it's own right. So here is a chance for the forum to pit the pro's and cons of both rounds. I have not seen these two rounds compared yet.
Please only these two rounds don't add 338-06 .35 Wheelen or .358 Win or others. I know they are great rounds but these are the two I want to compare

Question:
Your choice for a whitetail/blackbear round.

Choices:
8x57
.338 Federal

 

I pick the 8x57 don't know why. They both well work just fine.

I've killed deer with every thing from 22rf to over 40 ca. DGRs. Bears with 30 cal to 416s.

I would consider any thing from 6.5 to 358 caliber with a decent bullet wieght for the caliber and vel above 2300 fps to be a very good deer black bear cailber.

These two fit the bill just fine.

I have more 8x57s and various 338's than I can count. You can't go wrong with either but if I were to have only one rifle larger than .30 cal given your choices of chamberings it would probably be the 8x57. However, the .338 Fed has good factory ammo available.

8x57 for me, Excellent but underated

I might add I reload.

Unless the .338 Fed. rifle has a long enough action and a deep enough throat to adequately handle long heavy bullets it is a compromise design at best. The 8mm X 57mm does the job.

The 8x57 and the 338F are both good hunting rounds. I do not see either of them to be that much better than a 308 or 30-06, to justify getting unless you just find a rifle in one of those calibres that you like.

What I am trying to say is, if you are spending you money to have more "power" I would step up to the 9,3x62.

I know that is not what you asked.

Of the 2 you have mentioned I would go with the 338 Federal.

Sounds to me like the point is a new caliber for the sake of being different. If you already load and shoot 8x57 for milsurp, it isn't as new and different as the .338!

NE,
I actually don't own a .308 or 30-06 either. I have a .300 Win Mag that has my go to hunting rifle for the past 15 years or so. I also hunt with my mil surps from time to time and my flintlocks. Right now I am building a .257AI on an action from a .308 I had that never did shoot well. I also have a 6.5x55 Swede that Bubba got ahold of that will be getting a new barrel and stock in the future. However I also have a K98 that ole Bubba ruined that I think would be a good donor for a rifle in the power range the 8x57 or .338 Federal would be.

quote:

Originally posted by aspade:
Sounds to me like the point is a new caliber for the sake of being different. If you already load and shoot 8x57 for milsurp, it isn't as new and different as the .338!

Well you could be on to something. However I load and shoot the 8x57 for an old Czech 98/22 and load only reduced loads for plinking with it. So a modern sporter in 8x57 with a new barrel would be new also.

I can't get excited in the 338. I have 2 358s. I also have the 8X57 and a 33 WCF I think all of the mentioned are good rounds. Buy what you want. Packy.

One thing I like about the Federal is that it is pleasant to shoot.

Go with the 8x57.

You'll always be able to find quality, headstamped brass for it and the bullet selection is good enough as well.

Don
Since you have a 98 action that was originaly an 8x57 then that is what I would build.

If It was me I would build it either like a prewar British bolt or a pre war Mauser, ribbed bbl [from Lothar Walther] and all.

I like the British stocks best ,ie short forearm.

I like true British wide V iron sights and a scope in claw mounts.

NE,
That is one of the reason I am thinking 8x57 because it allready was an 8x57 it just has a worn barrel. The reciever is allready drilled and tapped and the bolt has been worked for a scope.
The rifle is actually my dad's that I bought for him but as he no longer hunts or shoots much I am sure I will be able to build on it

Don
No doubt 8x57 is the way to go.

.338 Fed and the 8x57 are basicly ballistic twins. What one will do, so will the other.

Now, if your building a rifle, I would let the action length speak for the proper cartridge.

If you have a short action -.338F all the way.
A medium action - 8x57, because it makes sense and anything shorter is a waste.
Long action - neither, move on to the .338-06 etc..

Personaly, I would go 8x57 only if I could find a nice BRNO 21H or 22F.

Several years ago I faced a decision to rebore a fine little SAKO L579 carbine to either the .358 Win or the wildcat .338-08. I really struggled with that decision, but finally went with the .358. I would have a winner either way.

Good luck with your project. BT

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Go with the 8x57.

You'll always be able to find quality, headstamped brass for it and the bullet selection is good enough as well.

Yup...I agree...good choice!

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
One thing I like about the Federal is that it is pleasant to shoot.

Hey...tell us about your .338 Federal....what's it chamber in and do you reload it or if you buy ammo what type do you buy...I'm interested!

It's built on a vz24 action. Scoped it weighs 7.25 lbs. I bought two boxes of factory loads mainly for the brass. The rest I use resized 358 Win brass for. Mostly I shoot the Nosler 210 partition but have also loaded up some of the old speer 275 grainers. The 275's shoot a lot like a 9.3x57. The long magazine allows me to load them without sacrificing powder space.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktail53:
.338 Fed and the 8x57 are basicly ballistic twins. What one will do, so will the other.

Now, if your building a rifle, I would let the action length speak for the proper cartridge.

If you have a short action -.338F all the way.
A medium action - 8x57, because it makes sense and anything shorter is a waste.
Long action - neither, move on to the .338-06 etc..

Personaly, I would go 8x57 only if I could find a nice BRNO 21H or 22F.

Several years ago I faced a decision to rebore a fine little SAKO L579 carbine to either the .358 Win or the wildcat .338-08. I really struggled with that decision, but finally went with the .358. I would have a winner either way.

Good luck with your project. BT

This philosophy must come from living in the same area...

I couldn't have said it better..

I'd like to put together a 338 Federal on a Ruger short action...just to have one.. I already elk hunt with a 338/06 ( among other cartridges.. but the 338/06 is always in my hands or in the truck during elk season)....

I also have several 8 x 57 Mausers, on Mauser actions.. that I would never part with.. unlike a lot of guys, I pretty much settle on the 175 grain Sierras or the 170 Grain Speer SMPs for all my loads...one of the few calibers I don't try out all the bullet weights made for them..

Both are competent.. I'd give the 'statistically better' award to the 338 Federal... but there isn't an animal in the world that would know the difference and both are going to be honest to good killers of game, when the shooter does his part...

I won't give up my 8mm Mausers, and I will definitely have a 338 Federal barrel for one of my Ruger short actions..

i voted 8x57...

if you have a worn 8x57 and wanted to be different i would go to the 9.5x57 m.s. aka 375 w.r.
easy to form from your 8x57 brass and an efficient wholloper





shoot 225 grain 375 bullets for plinking and thin skinned stuff



and the 270's for bear and hogs

8X57 gets my vote. Go with the classic. I'm loading for one now and I would think(no evidence to prove it)handloads in the 8X57 would better the 338 fed. A 338 on a long action might do better, then again there's the 8mm 06!

I voted 8X57.
I just like mauser rifles , and ! I like the way the X57 mauser rounds feed.
I know of a real cool old brno *x57 I would love to buy. The problem s that it has claw scope bases and how in the hell would you know witch kind of claw rings fit the bases. By the time you figured it out you would have a few sets of bases at at least 100.00 a piece . Sitting around...tj3006

8x57 Mauser...still king of the hill..

As I have a Rem Model 700 Classic in 8x57JS I wondered how the 8x57 compared to the .338 Federal so I put together this table:



Very similar ballistics. Nothing wrong with the .338 Federal but I think I'll keep my 8x57.

-Bob F.

I would be a fool to try making an argument anyone go trade a 8x57, 358, or similar for a 338F, now if I were building, I think as Seafire does.

All that said, how many new models of rifles are being offered in this country, AND ammo in 8x57?

How many in 338 Federal?

I think those OPTIONS are what will dictate future decisions of purchases.

When the lead leaves the barrel, they all work very well, and similarly I am sure.

That 9.3 x57 picture sure looked interesting! Not into magnums, loved my 338-06, but after the 358 Win, I'd be hard pressed to examine the 9.3 bores! Love the 6.5's, but the larger bores fill a role! On LARGE game, their value cannot be overstated.

Back to the ?, on deer and bear, hey, I can get 308 brass all day and would plan to load my own for range use and hunting and that option is nice to have, as well as factory ammo and rifles. That said, I would gladly get the job done with a properly loaded and sighted ANYTHING close to a 8x57 if that is what I was using.

Enjoy hunting, and wishing all clean kills.......as an aquaintance once said, 'this is all mental masturbation' and I cannot disagree with those words, having killed enough game with an assortment of ctg's. I am no expert, nor claim to be, but SHOT placement truly is where it all begins. Shootability HITTING vitals with a decent bullet of adequate energy and velocity to penetrate and destroy tissue in vitals does it, and they never know the paper ballistics we all sweat over! I bet the game we hunt truly would laugh if they could, had they known all the time we mull the data, etc.

At the end of the day, I have to say I ENJOY and will continue to enjoy pursuing more knowledge as that is half the fun, the journey. Having CHOICES is what brings us all together to share with each other, and I do enjoy what others share, even if I choose to go another route. In the end, we all seek a similar outcome if not the same, having fun perfecting our ability to make swift clean kills on animals we hunt, or for non hunters, tweaking all available accuracy out of our tools of the trade.

As much as I have in my mind a very few 'go to cartridges' for a certain application, I cannot see myself stopping the research and experimenting with things I have yet to try.

Perhaps down the road an 8x57, hey even a 338 on a 7mm BR case! Wow, when you come full circle, the things you think of!

338 Benchrest, now would that be a nifty little 'micro action ctg' for a woods rifle after deer? Ha!

No, I am not Jim Carmichael, who years after the 263 express, claim to invent the 260 calling it the bobcat or panter, the 338 Whisper has been done, 2 versions a 221 Fireball case, and a 7mm BR case.

Check out a 180gr ballistic tip at 2544fps? 18.5" bbl, 2581 lbs energy, WOW out of 30 grains powder:

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_bw.asp?CaliberID=389&BulletWeight=180

can you say efficient.

As much as I enjoy my 357 Marlin, Lil gun puts a 158 at close to 2000 fps, and it destroys jugs of water at 150, how neat would a little bolt be using it at woods ranges, shooting a mid bore mid weight slug with above ballistics (I bet this is close to a 300 savage?) with recoil likely similar to a 243, but a slower recoil pulse?

OK, I'll stop getting 'off topic' sorry guys, I digress!!!!! I love my 6 and 7mm BR's but a 338 bullet might have more WHOP factor on those deer in the woods! But back to reality, this year my woods range kill died at 42 yds, a doe headshot with 105 amax, from none other than my 6mm BR! Sure tasted good too!

the problem with the 338 fed is that reloads cant get close to the factory loads...thus the 8x57 vote. what about a 338x57???

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the problem with the 338 fed is that reloads cant get close to the factory loads...thus the 8x57 vote. what about a 338x57???

That could explain why I conside rthe Federal pleasant to shoot. With the exception of loads I intend to use at long ranges I have stopped chronoing handloads. I work up to the max load that still gives me exceptional accuracy and stop.

If I needed more speed I would simply switch to the .38-06 or if even more was required, the .338 Win Mag.

What you are saying though is why I would choose the 8x57 over the federal if those were the only two choices I had.

I found the following table in this article:

A Civilized Medium
The .338 Federal delivers "over .30" performance without magnum recoil.
By Payton Miller
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/338fed_052507/index.html





I thought it was interesting to see the results from a 21 inch barrel and how they compare with the factory stated velocity specs.

-Bob F.

quote:

the problem with the 338 fed is that reloads cant get close to the factory loads...

boomstick..
I'd have to disagree with that!

Using the types of powder that work well in the 223 is going to the best bet..

to max out performance in the 8 x 57, use powders that work well in the 223...

I can get 3100 fps out of an 8 x 57, with a 170 grain bullet, using RL 7... from a 24 inch barrel...My 29 inch Turkish Mauser clears 3250 fps...

for a disclaimer.. I can reload that brass with those loads 10 times with NO problems...

go one grain more with that fast of a powder tho, and you blow primers..

The main reason I think powder manufacturers push slower powders... you can fill the case and they are more idiot proof than Faster powders...

back in the 1950s when powder was really cheap, you still see a lot of writers of the time advocate using the least amount of powder for a given velocity... FASTER powders...

50 years later, and millions of law suits from those that hurt themselves being idiots and not thinking or paying attention.. and wanting to blame someone else...has us convinced we need to burn 4831 in a 30/30 just to 'be on the safe side'..

duplicating factory specs in a 338 Fed is possible...just more difficult for the non thinking or "not paying attention to what they are doing type"....and that statement is not inferring anyone in particular on the forum here ....just nimrods in general..

I held my tongue but reading Seafire, I want to chime in.

There has been much 'scattered various' info on the 338 federal, and the factory claims proprietary blends of powder etc. etc. and Marketing is at play, heck, sometimes one can max out the HOW to get more of a certain type of powder in a case, then is normal with drop thru a small funnel, and I imagine there may be certain 'special powders'

BUT, there are OFTEN certain SWEET SPOT powders for given ctgs.

Take for instance, my 7mm BR, I get 2878 fps with 120gr and 21" bbl, WAY more than most would imagine, safely, but go to a different powder, performance can be SIGNIFICANTLY less.

That said, I think traditional powders, MANY of them will get you easily within 50fps of factory loads, AND keep in mind, some tests I believe showed the FACTORY loads getting about 50fps LESS than published specs, so DO RELOADS REALLY GIVE UP anything over factory loads? If so, I SERIOUSLY feel that if any, only 50fps, as this ctg - the 338 Federal has a modest capacity and a VERY GOOD expansion ratio. Preferred powders will yield very high potential out of each gr of powder burned and I don't believe the 'rumors' are near what some want to believe, or make others believe.

That said, if you get within 50fps of a factory spec 338 Fed load, NO animal will ever know the difference and a slight adjustment, perhaps 2-3 clicks at most on the elevation knob will even out any variation to achieve a PBR sight in desired, within the cartridge limits/capabilities, which I feel is about 300 yds, which is where a LOT of hunting takes place.

I don't think whether a reload can equal factory loads is a real issue, the issue is whether the type of one's hunting can be handled well by a cartridge within the 338F or 8x57's realm.

Just my .02......based on load data I have seen from MANY sources, some old, some newer, some varying powders and bbl lengths, and authors that some were more 'conservative' others loaded up to safe max pressures.

I voted for the 338Federal. I had one built on a Remington 600. It has a 21" Douglas #2 barrel. The whole thing was reblued too. I have been playing with it in the original stock but I have a McMillan EDGE on order for it. I've tried RL-15, IMR4895 and WIN748 with 200gr Hornady SPs, Barnes 185TSX, and 210gr Nosler Partitions. The load that shoots the best is the Hornady w/4895. My chrono said 2550ish with a max load. I got 2725 with the TSX but it didn't group all that great. I could only get 2450 out of the NP but accuracy was good. This round fits in my safe between my 7mm-08 and 338WM. It will be my deer/black bear rig but will go along for elk as my backup. I think the Hornady SP is perfect for deer sized game and nothing bigger is required. MV is where I expected it to be - just short of factory MVs but the animals won't know. Here is a pic of the rifle in the original stock...

I think the 338 Federal is a great idea. I may
have one some day. But I just picked up a Remington M700 Classic in 8x57 because I just couldn't put it off any longer.

I have many 8x57 caliber rifles, German K98's,
Yugo and Turkish mausers, Portuguese 1904/39.
I have come to love the 8x57. Every bit as
much as the 30-06. So I voted for the 8x57.
I like long actions because of the (generally)
increased reloading versatility.

I'm really looking forward to having a game
rifle in that caliber now. I think the Remington M700 Classic in 8x57 is a special
opportunity. One of the few American rifles
ever chambered for that "classic" cartridge.
Efficient performance with great bullet choices
equals well killed whitetail and black bear.
And various other critters, both smaller and
some larger.

dxr

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

the problem with the 338 fed is that reloads cant get close to the factory loads...

I can get 3100 fps out of an 8 x 57, with a 170 grain bullet, using RL 7... from a 24 inch barrel...My 29 inch Turkish Mauser clears 3250 fps.....

Just to bracket what you've said,Seafire.The energy levels you are getting from the 8mmX57 equal or exceed published energy levels from the 30 Norma mag. 300H&H. and 300 Win. mag. when these are loaded at over 60,000PSI. You probably might see why that I might be a twinge sceptical. roger

8x57mm

48 gr bulk surplus IMR4895 [read H322 for that batch] 220 gr. Sierra 2420, 3.22", 29.5" barrel, measured 2675 fps

That is about 3500 foot pounds of energy.

It has got MOA accuracy when it wears the big scope.

Not bad for a $50 rifle from BIG5.
Too bad it weighs 10 pounds scoped.


And the metal butt plate is felt through just a T shirt in the summer.

This is really not an apples to apples comparison TNEKCC. The Federal is meant to be used in a short action, preferably a lite weight gun. Kinda defeats the purpose when you stick on a 29" bbl. But if you did, I'm sure the gap would narrow.

Can't beat that price, but my 96 mausers were chopped to 21-24" when I had them. 29" were FAST, but you could not pay me to hunt with them. It is nice to have that speed, but the difference did not make the difference between eating or going hungry.

I have a 26" on my 6br, but it is a single shot so not overly unwieldy. I have often contemplated chopping it so 20-24" for handling, not weight, as I like a certain amount. I hunt out of deer blinds and also carry in timber, so a 29" would be very difficult to handle in those conditions. Likewise I agree on the short actions, the difference in weight savings and bolt throw are NOT substantial, BUT I WILL take it and enjoy the reduction there. Lock time is also improved, likely a modern short action will beat the mauser, even long action modern bolts. I guess you could put aftermarket speed lock, lightened firing pin, better trigger, etc. etc.

I know to 'sporterize' any mauser either takes equipment/time/labor and/or a gunsmith that makes the $50 get closer to a factory Ruger or similar. Something the 338 Federal is in, and a hawkeye esp. if chopped to 20-22" would be much handier than a 29" bbl mauser, but that is me.

There is a Ruger #1 A in 22", that should be very compact, if you have confidence in your shooting ability.

It is like ice cream, vanilla does not make everybody happy, like the 30-06 so others like a wide variety. Each a little different, and consumers are all different. Enjoy your 8x57. If the factory stuffed a short action 8mm/08 into a rifle and had good factory loads it might sell ok. Not much off a 338 federal, but there is a 325 WSM if one desires, but I think many don't.

Deer hunters, a bulk of hunters covered here in the US, may see the 'balance' of all the benefits you get in a round that provides as much if not better 'downing power' for the hunting intended at ranges nominal to the majority of shooters, and their abilities. I won't argue an 8x57 can duplicate field performance, ballistically.

What I can say is, it is not in short actions, nor have widely available quality factory ammo/modern rifles for sell here in the US that I have seen, nor is there an abundant supply of brass to reform such as we have in the common 308. That gives it the edge in my mind for US hunters and reloaders. Just my 'flavor'

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
8x57mm

That is about 3500 foot pounds of energy.A LITTLE MUCH..

You been drinking from the same well as Sea Fire? roger

Roge..

No denied the load wasn't hot...but the rifle and the brass seem to take it... I have loaded a few of these 7 to 8 times with those loads...

That's why we handload... to make our friends skeptical all the time!!!

and as I highlighted... one more grain was popping primers and I didn't give out the load..so we didn't have some nimrod blow up his rifle and his head...

And I am sure that my handload is waaaay over SAAMI specs... of course MOST 8 x 57 Loads are over SAAMI specs... A 30/30 by SAAMI specs has a higher presssure limit than their 8 x 57 Loads...

I prefer to hunt with my 8 x 57s loaded to 30/30 or 30/40 specs or equals... I have bigger calibers if I need the horsepower... but it doesn't take away from what potential lies within an 8 x 57....

heck ALL European military spec'd ammo for the 8 mm Mauser is well over SAAMI specs...

Me and Clarkie are just following their lead!

you need to quit playing with that French rifle and work with a good German Designed and Built Rifle, Richtig Herr Bartsche?