Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

The 8 x 57 mm Mauser designed by Paul Mauser in 1888 is the mother of rimless cartridges.
It is still one of the best till today up to a case length of 57 mm and imo even ahead of the 30-06 Spr.
As a medium bore with a 198 grain bullet at 2,579 fps at medium ranges has to be as ideal as can be.
This is achieved at very low pressure and it suits the softer actions like the 1909 Argentinians very well.
For building custom guns on a Mauser actions the 8x57 makes a lot of sense and it require less work to make it feed.

It is a very pleasant round to shoot in comparison with higher recoiling cartridges like the .300's and .338's.
Remington has reintroduced the 8x57 mm not so long ago, whilst most do no longer chamber for it.
Only nostalgia seems to drive it today, and that sadly only by the older generation.

Let us hear some views.

Warrior

Bring it back??

Maybe it's a relevant issue for others, but I'm set. I have two good shooters now, both custom, one on a CZ 550 action and the other on a Mark X Mauser action. Also four more in reserve, Mauser actions, pre-threaded & chambered barrels, and stocks - just in case I wear the other two out.

After thinking about it a long time, and somehow acquiring new 8mm barrels, modern production, over time, it just occurred to me that it's practically impossible to do better with a Mauser action than to barrel in 8x57.

I've even sold some of the 8mm barrels I've picked up as good deals. I'm talking about new modern barrels, not mil-surp. Seems that they are just not fast sellers, so I see good deals every so often. Now that I think about it, I've got five 8mm barrels rather than four.

KB

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

NAAAAAHH

A friend bought a new Sauer 202 in 8mm Mauser recently, and he's in love with it. It is now his "go to" rifle.

No flies on this one. A "do it all" medium bore.

My C.G. Haenel Sporting Rifle based on the GEWEHR M1888 is still earning its keep.

Rich

Warrior:

Small but important correction in your opening statement, as we are into nostalgia

The M88 case ( 8x57) was not a Mauser design, and Mauser had nothing to do with it's design. It was designed by a Commission.

The Rifle ( M88) was also not a Mauser, but a hybrid Mannlicher.

Which one do you want me to bring back? My sporter or my millsurp..

Alf,

Thanks Alf.

"Paul Mauser's Model 1888 rifle was really a modified Mannlicher, not as stout as the Mauser that replaced it a decade later. But Mauser's name has long been attached to the 7.9x57 cartridge that appeared in 1888 for the "Gewehr 88," or "Commission" rifle. (The 1888 rifle owes its design to the German Infantry Board, or Commission at Spandau Arsenal)."

Of course today we only talk the refined 1898, as that is what we are using.

2011 minus 1898 = 113 years and still the best.

Warrior

The 8x57IS (and its rimmed cousin, the 8x57RS) is a very popular cartridge in Central Europe. No need to "bring it back" over here, it never left...

On top of that, European factory ammo is loaded considerably hotter than the pretty anaemic US stuff. Maybe that has to do with the issue of two calibers sharing the same nominal name - as in 8x57I vs. 8x57IS - being seemingly ignored in the US (some AR members included, it would seem). It was a miserable idea of the Germans to come up with the "S" caliber designation when they changed from .318 to .323" bore. But there it is... It is a pet belief of mine, that we would all benefit if we were more rigorous when we refer to the various "8x57" calibers.

- mike

quote:

No need to "bring it back" over here, it never left .....

Roger that +1!

To include the pretty much standard load here in Central Europe are the 196 grainers (Bless the .323" 200 gr. Nosler AccuBond!) that IMO offers some serious Thwack-Whoomp to this cartridge.

Not taking a pot-shot at anyone's favorite <196 grain 8mm bullet - just my $0.02. Remember: you're getting your money's worth .....

For the majority of 60-80 meter High Seat shots taken here in the romantic, mature, Teuton Forests it is perfectly suited to the Task & a very common cartridge.

It is also loaded either with a black ring around the primer, black primer sealant or a black primer here so at a glance you can immediately differentiate between the old .318" bore vs. the newer .323".

My brass, dies and bullets got here yesterday...

Well one 8x57 is still going strong Down Under. Here is my son with his commercially re-furbished VZ-24 and it's latest victim. Load was a mild one under a 170 Hornady RNSP Interlock.



Hunt Report http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post184434

Nice postings with photos are welcome and let us make it a celebration of a treasure lost by most rifle factories that do not oiffer it any more as a standard offering.

I am not sure what the new Brno (not CZ) and Sastava outfits are doing. Perhaps someone can enlighten us.

Warrior

The four on the right are 8x57's:




As is this oldie:


And this one:



And this one:



I've about a a dozen more with my Brno M21 and the Husqvarna 1600 being my favorites.

Loaded with a 200 gr Nosler Partition to around 2,500 fps gives one adequate coverage out to 237 yds if we specify a vital zone radius of 3".

Loaded with 220/226 gr bullets at around 2,300 fps it would be an ideal eland caliber out to about 164 yds for the same vital zone radius.

This is flat shooting for a vital zone diameter of 6 inches, as small as an impala sized game.
I normally base my PBR calculations on 3 inches above and below the LOS for precision shooting, being conservative.

Here are some stats to look at ex Quickload:

Detail ---------200 gr NP ---- Trajectory
Bullet's BC --- 0.350 --------- Not applicable
Velocity ------ 2,500 fps ------ -1.5"
100 yds ------ 2,258 fps ------ +2.7"
200 yds ------ 2,031 fps ------ Zero
237 yds ------ 1,950 fps ------ -2.9" (Point blank range)
250 yds ------ 1,921 fps ------ -4.3"


Detail ---------220 gr NP ---- Trajectory
Bullet's BC --- 0.393 --------- Not applicable
Velocity ------ 2,324 fps ------ -1.5"
100 yds ------ 2,118 fps ------ Zero
164 yds ------ 1,991 fps ------ -3.0 Point blank range)
200 yds ------ 1,921 fps ------ -6.1"

This is fairly flat shooting on big game.

I am sure some people load hotter, but it is really a moot attempt at these ranges.

Warrior

Got my first 8mm (7.92x57) over 45 years ago. Now i have 16 in that caliber at last count. It has never disappointed me.

Blaser R93, Mauser M03 and Sauer S202. All offer 8x57JS Chamberings in their rifles, not sure if Steyr Mannlicher do as well. All rifles are available south of the zambezi, therefore the question begs, bring it back from where as these rifles are readily available?? Highland AX used to manufacture ammunition as well.. Just saying.

Cheers

quote:

Blaser R93, Mauser M03 and Sauer S202.

Deon,

The above rifles are generally out of the price range of a good 90% of SA hunters, as they are all very expensive.

The ones to "bring it back" are those that would cater for the 90%, and here I am thinking of the Sakos, Tikkas, CZ's, Voere, Winchesters, Rugers, Kimbers, Howas, etc.

Due to the underloading of the American SAAMI standard, I believe the cartridge suffered a huge blow and they just stayed with the 30-06 Spr, which is more American anyway for them. Another reason for light loads were the confusion about the 2 bore sizes in the 8x57 mm - the .318" and the .323".

The cartridge started off as a .318 calibre, but when the Germans in the early years of the 20th century changed from a heavy round nose to a lighter Spitzer, they had to cut deeper rifling to stabilize the bullet. Thus the 8 mm "S" was born, "S" as in "Spitzgeschoss" or Spitzer.

It seems the 8x57 will have to live its life as custom made Mausers for those that are really interested in acquiring some.

Warrior

Remington made the 2004 M700 Classic chambered for the 8x57. There are a few available and they are priced affordably. A very versatile cartridge IMO.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/forgotten_8x57.htm

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=242649445

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=242021385

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=242453001

http://www.gunsamerica.com/902...odel_700_Classic.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/942...04_in_8MM_MAUSER.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/984...00_in_8MM_Mauser.htm

The more we dig into the past and the origin of the 8x57 mm cartridge, the more we uncover how ideas were stolen or copied and credit is taken when it fact it belong to others. It also happened with other scientific discoveries that were made by at least 5 famous scientists:-

http://www.cracked.com/article...-their-big-idea.html

I came across this posting of Carcano lifting the veil of the true origin of the 8x57 mm Mauser:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by eldeguello:
Actually, the Gewehr 88 is more of a Mannlicher than anything else!
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Not correct. Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher, plagiator eminens, stole a couple of ideas from the German M 1888 Commission rifle, just as from the Italians (the 6,5x53R Mannlicher is his cheap copy of the Italian rimmed trial round he was given to work with - but the Italians were smarter than Ferdinand and secretly had already been planning for the - at that time - ultra-modern rimless variant after the German 8x57 and the Swiss 7,5x53,5). The M 1888 rifle was fathered mostly by Armand Mieg and Louis Schlegelmilch.

quote:
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However, I believe the 7,8X57mm I CARTRIDGE is a Mauser design....
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Rather not :-). The cartridge was a commission design, and a superb one. According to G�tz, the military always used 7,9 mm bores from the start - only the civilian J-bore hunting rifles has their lands tightened in the quest for accuracy.

Carcano

I've been in love w/ the 8x57 since the 1980's. Sadly I'm down to 4, all keepers.

Well I have to disagree...there is actually a BETTER version of the 8x57. It is the 8x60S. Everything the 8x57 does but just that little extra velocity. Yet none of the bullet seating issues of the 8mm-06 in a standard Mauser action.

Quite simply a better mousetrap!

However with light bullets the .30 and 7mm calibres ARE better. That's under 160 or even 175 grains. A 154 grain bullet in an 8mm looks impressive at the muzzle...but sheds velocity and drops like a brick beyond 200 yards compared to the same weight in a .30 or a 7mm.

The Germans found this out in the 1914 War...and afterwards copied the French ballistic specification of the 8mm Level. A full 198 or 196 grain bullet weight.

So. It is a GREAT medium bore when shot with a 198 or 196 grain bullet, yes. But as most game, for me, is in the light or medium under 100lbs class I need only a 150 or 160 grain bullet.

So for me I'm happier with a 270 or 280 thanks! Now I'be had both an 8x57 a lightweight pre-1933 sporter with Goertz glass. And a Belgian 8x60S with 25" barrel and its 'scope. Nice. But only if I was ever likely to shoot game in the 200lbs PLUS class.

So it is a fine cartridge and BETTER than the 30-06 with a 198 or 196 grain bullet. But under that weight? Less than 175 grains? The .30 and 7mm calibres do it better.

FWIW it is still a far better sniper's round with that 198 or 196 grain FMJ-BT than any .308 round. Superb at long range. But it can't be escaped that it was the French who the Germans "discovered" the merits of that bullet weight and shape from...the famous "Ballet D".

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
But it can't be escaped that it was the French who the Germans "discovered" the merits of that bullet weight and shape from...the famous "Ballet D".

Need to pull your leg a bit here ES....I'm sure you meant the French "Balle D", not the "Ballet D"...(wasn't the "Ballet D" something by Verdi before he really got off on an opera kick??)

...BETTER...? I hardly think so in that a 200 gr. Nosler PT. or AB, can be driven at 2700 fps. from a .30-06 and the same bullets can be driven at the same speed from the smaller-cased 8x57JS. Given the superior ballistic coefficient of the .308" projectile over the .323" bullet, the supposed superiority simply does not exist.

I would take a .30-06 loaded to 2600 fps-mv. with the 220 gr. NP over ANY load possible in the 8x57js cartridge where BIG game is concerned and, frankly, where small deer, etc. are concerned, the 7x57, 8x57, .3006, ,308, .270 and .280 are all equal and none is superior to any of the others...and, I own and shoot highend rifles in all of these and many more big game chamberings.

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my old Husqvarna 1600 in 8x57js from Martini Gunmakers who recently installed a Timney trigger and a Wisner 3-pos safety on it, the last of these superb safeties Jim had available. I intend to stick a light synthetic handle on it, maybe the Hunter's Edge Remmy blank I have sitting here and I will have a "mountain 8mm" and, IMO, a very good tool for that kind of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
frankly, where small deer, etc. are concerned, the 7x57, 8x57, .3006, ,308, .270 and .280 are all equal and none is superior to any of the others....

Right on!!...Though a special rifle or a special load may make one or another better SOMETIMES for a specific purpose and instance.

I don't know which precise configuration you are having Martini put together for you but a light weight 8x57 on a short/standard Mauser action can be a real delight.

That's why I love my factory-original Steyr-Mannlicher Professional in 8x57JS...even though it is not a Mauser action it makes a super-appropriate mountain rifle or thick brush gun for healthy size ruminant game. Nice light gun, short barreled, not top heavy with the little lightweight older Leupold fixed power 6 on it in low mounts, and very accurate with bullets clear up into the 230 grain+ class. (I use NP 200 spitzers in it most of the time, though.) If in the brush, I can quickly remove the QD scope and use the irons....

Basically, it is just a really handy rifle. But no better for other uses than any of my '06s, 7 Mags, .280s, or .270s, etc. Feed them the right stuff and put them in a rifle built or adapted for the particular use at hand, and they are all GREAT cartridges!!

quote:

"Paul Mauser's Model 1888 rifle was really a modified Mannlicher, not as stout as the Mauser that replaced it a decade later. But Mauser's name has long been attached to the 7.9x57 cartridge that appeared in 1888 for the "Gewehr 88," or "Commission" rifle. (The 1888 rifle owes its design to the German Infantry Board, or Commission at Spandau Arsenal)."

Obviously an era when they knew how to get things done properly. Imagine a modern day "Infantry Board", with all its gears greased by varoius lobbyists, and a voting constituency eager to feed from the pork barrel.

Albatross.

quote:

a 200 gr. Nosler PT. or AB, can be driven at 2700 fps. from a .30-06 and the same bullets can be driven at the same speed from the smaller-cased 8x57JS.

The difference would be in pressure - .308 vs .323 bore size - the 8x57 has a 10% bigger bore area making for a lower pressure pressure vessel.

Back to some loads for the 8x57. Here is a table showing factory ammo velocities for RWS and Sellier and Ballot:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...er_loads#Post1678489

The best powder for the 8x57 is Norma 202.
I know some swear by H414 for getting higher velocities.

Warrior

SADLY the American mass firearms market will never recognize the 8mm X 57mm as a big seller.It can't be brought back as it was never really here in any numbers to start with.We AR 8 X 57 advocates and maybe officianados are just small potatoes of the necessary sales needed to make the honorable 8 happen.
Maybe,perhaps ,quite likely, some day the Brit .303??? roger

quote:

Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher, plagiator eminens, stole a couple of ideas from the German M 1888 Commission rifle

Absolutely not ! It is the other way around !

Von Mannlicher was in terms of gun design likely the most prolific of all of the gun Designers of all time. He had no less than 104 patents in operation, he was credited with 150 working designs and more than 100 experimetnal designs.

He is credited with the founding of the basics that underly the modern Automatic firearm, long before Browning built his famous machine gun Von Mannlicher already had the principles laid down in working guns.

To call this guy a Copier of ideas is simply not true !

This might be so, and perhaps the real truth around the 1888 design is still somewhat shrouded in darkness, but Herr von Mannlicher was certainly a giant in his own right. But be that as it may, Paul Mauser worked on his first design in 1871 that predates the 1888 model - Gewehr 71 or Infanterie-Gewehr 71.

However, after the 1888 design the next innovation was the Spanish Model 1893. The M93 introduced a short staggered-column box magazine as standard, holding five 7x57mm rounds flush with the bottom of the rifle, which could be reloaded quickly by pushing a strip of rounds from the top of the open bolt. It had still only two locking lugs.

Then followed the various versions of the Swedish Mauser, but eventually in 1898 Mauser improved the design, known as the Model 98, which incorporated improvements of earlier models, and officially entered German service as the Gew. 98 on April 5, 1898. This remains by far the most successful of the Mauser designs. Noticeable changes from previous Mauser rifle models included better ruptured case gas venting, better receiver metallurgy and larger receiver ring dimensions for handling the pressures of the 7.92x57 cartridge. Mauser also incorporated a new, third "safety" lug on the bolt body to protect the shooter in the event that one or more of the forward locking lugs failed. Even if Mauser 'stole' ideas from Herr von Mannlicher, then we should credit Herr Mauser with the subsequent improvements.

Paul Mauser died on May 29, 1914 before the start of World War I that August. World War I would see a very large spike in demand for the company's rifles, as well as a number of variants of it. The legacy of the 8x57 in 2 world wars raised the mauser brothers to cult status.

Warrior

I have recently purchased a Zastava blued/synthetic M70 rifle in 8x57 with leupold std mounts with a Meopta Artemis 3-9x42.

Did some prelimnary work with Remington 170gn Corelokt ammo and found the lack of recoil after using my 404j a surprise.

I have bought some Sellior & Bellot 196gn ammo that I will use after making the necessary adjustment to the scope and plan to use it on Sambar, Fallow pigs and goats.

If it meets my expectations in the field which I am sure it will, I plan to replace it with a Sako Black Bear in the 8x57

tasso

quote:

the real truth around the 1888 design is still somewhat shrouded in darkness, but Herr von Mannlicher was certainly a giant in his own right. But be that as it may, Paul Mauser worked on his first design in 1871 that predates the 1888 model - Gewehr 71 or Infanterie-Gewehr 71.

Warrior:

I think you are dramatizing the history of the M88 unfairly, there is no darkness and no lack of truth in it's coming about and design.

The only lack is that of a lack of knowledge by shooters and the lay gun press because the M88's timeline was short and overshadowed by the Mauser proper.

What is interesting though is that it lay at the birth of modern gun and cartridge design and as such there are numerous interesting aspects involved in it's birth.

There is an espionage plot attached to the German's design , intrigue ! between the French and the Germans

There is the story of the birth of the Rottweill Powder company, guncotton, nitro sellulose and a new flake Powder designed at Spandau and not by Rottweill, the race to design propellants, a race that ultimately defined the choice of bore size in the 8mm.

Powder and powder performance lay at the heart of the 318 and 323 bore issue. And speaking of bore..... the bore of the 8mm Mauser never changed not from the day of it's inception.... another Myth !

Bore is the hole drilled into the barrel before the rifling is cut. The Bore of the 8mm remained constant throughout it's lifetime ! It was the depth of rifing that changed ! and bullets, Hence the 318 vs 323 issue.

Industrial theft of patents and Law suits. One that Styer won because the Commission at Spandau stole Von Mannlichers clip design and modified it.

As part of the settlement Styer then became a manufacturer of the M88 Rifle and in turn sold rifles to the Chinese..... who later during the Boxer Revolution used the very rifles against the Germans.

Herr Mauser had absolutely no part in the M88, he was not even consulted, he was left completely out of the whole deal other that the Commision used some of his designs directly in the M88.

Having said this it has to be understood that the Ludwig Loewe company was the major share holder in Mauser at the time and they built M88's

The Mauser 71 trigger was used directly in the M88, as was Mannlichers clip and magazine in modified form.

And so it goes on.

Thanks Alf for providing more info around this question. What I was trying to say is that I really do not know the details in the absence of better information, going back some 123 years. You are quite right about the grooves being cut deeper by 5 thou.

Did Herr Manlicher sued Mauser for the infringement or was there no patent registered at the time?
What we do know is that Mauser sued the Americans for infringing their patent on the 98 action.

Warrior

Timely thread. My wife has a M70 FW in .257 Rob. that she loves but is in need of something bigger. I was thinking of getting her a twin M70 FW in 8x57. Since I don't think they come from the factory in that flavour, what would be the easiest to have converted?

Dean

I would go to a .338-06 in your situation and this is easy to build on any .3006 or .270 donnor rifle. It has considerably more "whack'em" factor than any load for the 8x57 and paired with the .257 makes a fine Canadian hunting combo.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
Well one 8x57 is still going strong Down Under. Here is my son with his commercially re-furbished VZ-24 and it's latest victim. Load was a mild one under a 170 Hornady RNSP Interlock.

See, it can kill a brontosaurus!

Dean,
You can find her a Win FW in 7x57 or get her one of the new 325 WSM's. Should be a nice caliber for Canadian hunting.

Aaron

Some negatives for US hunters that needs to buy factory ammo:

Acquiring good commercial 8x57 mm hunting ammunition is not easy in the USA due to import restrictions of late, and consequently has become unduly expensive against American made ammo. US ammo maker, Remington, only sells 170 gr ammo and they are under loaded too. This is so because there may be some of the older and weaker guns still in existence, and so the standard working pressures have been kept low (37,000 CUP) and/or a potential mix-up of shooting a .323" bullet through a .318" grooved diameter bore - they would most probably go through, but with escalated pressures causing a potential problem. All 8x57 mm US made ammo is SAAMI-spec'ed, and so Remington sells their soft point bullet in 170 grains with a muzzle velocity of 2,360 fps, falling way short of the 30-06 Spr.

Those that reload can overcome these negatives easily:

Since both US brass and ammo are available to reloaders, none of the above need to apply. Remington sells brass and 185 grain PSP Core-lock bullets. For the 8x57 to come to its rightful potential, it really needs to be loaded with 196/198/200 grain bullets, as most European ammo manufacturers offer. Luckily Nosler offers a 200 grain Partition bullet, whereas Swift offers a Swift A-Frame bullet in both 200 and 220 grains. Barnes too offers a TSX in 180 and 200 grains. Loaded this way, the 8x57 mm can be used on any North American game. Since Remington offers their Model 700 in 8x57 JS, there is no need to import other brands, unless so preferred.

Cartridges well entrenched in the US hampers the 8x57:

The 30-06 Spr and 300 Win Mag is very well entrenched in the USA, and for the reasons mentioned above, they have effectively marginalized the 8x57 mm over a number of years. Also the fact that other magnums were popularized by gunwriters captured a major chunk of the market.

The next jump up in caliber from the .323 caliber is the .338-06 and .338 Win Mag, and then there is still the .35 Whelen - all of which can shoot heavier bullets up to 250 grains, whereas the maximum of the 8x57 is a 220 grain bullet. For a straight out comparison with 200 grain bullets the picture becomes clearer:

8x57 -------------- 200 gr @ 2,575 fps (CIP P-Max =56,564 psi)
.338-06 ----------- 200 gr @ 2,720 fps (SAAMI standardized in 1998, Pressure = ???)
.338 Win Mag---- 200 gr @ 2,950 fps (CIP P-Max = 65,000 psi)

So it is all a question of the power that you seek, and to be able to take longer shots if that is your application. If you can live with it, the 8x57 will provide lower recoil and a much lower operating pressure, and still provide enough punch out to 250 yards, catering for most of the kills that you need to make. If you have to built a custom Mauser rifle my pick would be the 8x57.

Apparently RWS has stopped making 8x57 mm ammo.
Norma and S&B factoiry ammo is still available

Warrior