quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

However, the 8x57 does so with a lot less pressure, and loaded to the same pressure as the 338 Federal the 8x57 wins easily.
Warrior

This is all mental masturbation. I load the 338 Federal. I can get 2650 fps with a 200 Hot Cor and 2530 fps with a 225 Deepcurl. This is from a 22" barrel. Load the 8x57 has hot as you want, it's not going to beat those numbers by any meaningful amount.

Scott,

This guy is pushing a 200 gr NP in his 8x57 @ 2730 fps as opposed to your 2650 fps, but that is not the gist of the matter.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...091073651#2091073651

The whole idea is not to beat any caliber for that matter with velocity, as that is not its niche nor its virtue. It is to have a medium bore shooting a 200 to 220 grain bullet at moderate velocity and at a low pressure on Mauser actions .... and custom built as well to one's liking.

Mausers of this kind:- (make you drool)





Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
This is all mental masturbation. I load the 338 Federal. I can get 2650 fps with a 200 Hot Cor and 2530 fps with a 225 Deepcurl. This is from a 22" barrel. Load the 8x57 has hot as you want, it's not going to beat those numbers by any meaningful amount.

Warrior,

You just proved my point. 80 FPS more from a longer barrel is nominal at best.

I'm not knocking the 8mm Mauser, I think it's a nice cartridge. I just don't think it's "hands down" better than a 338 Federal.

Oh, yeah...those Mausers look heavy. Hopefully they come with a gun bearer

Warrior -

Thank you for your "metallurgy" post above. It needs to be copied and posted in the various threads relating to the brittle rifles which were produced early in the production of 1903 Springfields. (The majority weren't brittle, but some were/are.)

The problem of the brittle Springfields is just the reverse. The carbon originally in the steel was in effect "burnt out of it" by overheating during the arsenal heat-treatment. The individuals doing the heat-treating were not provided with any instruments (pyrometers) other than their own human eyes to judge the actual heat achieved in the process, so some actions were severely overheated.

Some folks still claim to commercially re-carburize those actions to a "safe" grain structure & chemistry, but from what my secondary research indicates, all they are really doing is case-hardening them as a VERY THIN layer of gas-carbonized steel "skin" is created. That does not, as you say, improve their strength in any appreciable or meaningful amount.

Our gvernment knew that very early on. That is why IT did not recarburize and harden them to prevent the occasional blow-up. As I understand it, the only way to truly salvage that steel is to remelt the whole action body and start over from square one with the re-making of the steel.

Any comment on that subject?

Me, I like all the 8m/ms...338 Federal (a close cousin), 8x57, 8x60, 8x68, .325 WSM, 8m/m Remington Mag, etc. I think the 8x57 would be a very nice round for most NA hunters as they would discover if they tried it in the field, but there aren't any flies on the others either. In addition to my modern 8x57S rifle (a Steyr Professional), I also hope to acquire both a .338 Federal AND a .338 Marlin fairly soon.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Why?.....It didn't do the Germans any good!

Vd! Do you really think it was a ground pounder service weapon that won that war.1 Not in this life time. the Russian Burb gun probably came close. The other right step was the Russians using the information from the 8mm Kurs in developing the M43

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

Vd! Do you really think it was a ground pounder service weapon that won that war./QUOTE]

Well, I must admit that 12,000 B-17s and 27,000 Sherman tanks did have an effect!

quote:

Me, I like all the 8m/ms...338 Federal (a close cousin), 8x57, 8x60, 8x68, .325 WSM, 8m/m Remington Mag, etc. I think the 8x57 would be a very nice round for most NA hunters as they would discover if they tried it in the field, but there aren't any flies on the others either. In addition to my modern 8x57S rifle (a Steyr Professional), I also hope to acquire both a .338 Federal AND a .338 Marlin fairly soon.

Boys will be boys, and boys need toys !!!

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Mausers of this kind:- (make you drool)





Warrior

You sure, but not me. The pads to me are a eyesore....but to each his own.

You get em made to your liking.
With red or black recoil pads.
With or without sights.
Light and sleek or more sturdy.
That way, you'll like em.
Its custom.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

Vd! Do you really think it was a ground pounder service weapon that won that war./QUOTE]

Well, I must admit that 12,000 B-17s and 27,000 Sherman tanks did have an effect!

IIRC, there were also many thousands of T-34 tanks on the eastern front in the last year or two of the war. Though the Shermans did certainly help, the T-34s were vastly superior tanks to the M-4s, and were even better in many ways than the "Tigers".

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

Vd! Do you really think it was a ground pounder service weapon that won that war./QUOTE]

Well, I must admit that 12,000 B-17s and 27,000 Sherman tanks did have an effect!

IIRC, there were also thousands of T-34 tanks on the eastern front in the last year or two of the war, too. Though the Shermans did certainly help, the T-34s were vastly superior tanks to the M-4s, and were even better in many ways than the "Tigers".

Kilroy Was There! roger

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Mausers of this kind:- (make you drool)





Warrior

Warrior I would believe that custom mausers like these are out of reach for 91% of SA hunters. But I will admit they are really nice

Deon,

Correct, these ones will set you back more than what you pay for Remingtons and the like. However 8x57 rifles can still be had at relatively low prices from Remington, Zastava, and CZ. Formalito has just sold a CZ550 Lux 8x57 - suggested retail R12,768 - very affordable ($1,239). The Remington 8x57 mm rifle sells for around $950.

A new Czech Firm has revived the Brno Mauser Rifles - .243 Win; .270 Win; 308 Win; 30-06 SPR; 7x64; 8x57 JS; 9,3x62. - they go for about 600 Euros. They use old VZ-24 actions that are in perfect condition. Go here .... http://eshop.zbrojovkaholice.cz/21-kulovnice-k98.html

Here is the Zastava site: ..... http://www.zastava-arms.co.rs/

Mausers can be built for about R17500 if it is a basic rifle that is not spec-ed with expensive componentry. Mauser actions go for R3500, a Truvelo barrel is about R2200, Thor trigger R680, Decelerator Pad R360, 2-pos Safety R400, stock is your choice. As componentry gets more exclusive, so the price jumps. K98's were made for the 8x57, and so no magazine changes are necessary or bottom metals that can be expensive. After-market components from Recknagel and Dakota can be expensive.

My first Mauser custom was R11600, but that was many years ago.
I had 2 custom Mausers built 5 years ago - one for R14000 and the other one for R20,000 - all within reason.
I am currently having another one build for R25,000.

A Sako de lux will set you back R23900.
Steyr Mannlichers are around R30,000

Will I change any of my custom Mausers for any factory rifle - never in your life.
Not even for A R50,000 Blazer.

Warrior

Here is a photo of the new Brno K98 Mauser Rifles made from the VZ24 action.
What a deal at 600 Euros.



Some history on Persion Mausers - the rifles were made in Brno, the Czechoslovakian model, are known as VZ24's.

http://www.aliparsa.com/brno/brno.html

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Kilroy Was There! roger

Yes he was!! Did you ever go anywhere back in the day where you didn't see that scrawled overseas on something or other, Rog?

quote:

Will I change any of my custom Mausers for any factory rifle - never in your life.
Not even for A R50,000 Blazer.

A guide on Argali hunts recently got injured when a Blaser R93 blew up in his face.

"On Saturday, 10 January 2004, around 17.30, at the shooting range Jakobsberg (south of Koblenz), a serious accident occurred with a R93. Firearms dealer Albrecht Huf from Ingelheim bei Mainz wanted to test a Blaser R93 in .300 Weatherby Magnum after repairs to the telescopic sight. Factory ammunition was exclusively used. At the fifth shot the bolt was thrown backwards, hitting him under the right eye, on the cheekbone and the jaw. He suffered a compound fracture of the right thumb, and a broken cheekbone. An ambulance was urgently called. After first aid, the shooter was taken to a hospital in Koblenz. There, the doctor noted that the injuries were not life threatening. Albrecht Huf has been hospitalized since then. The accident was recorded by the Police and the Criminal Police. The witnesses are Ralf Helmich, Game Warden in the Jakobsberg area, Jochem Klämbt, range supervisor, and Birgit Helmich. The evidence items were seized. The R93's serial number is 9/36148, purchased date on 25th July 2000. We will report on the case developments."



Full narrative here (unfortunately only in solid German hewn from the block):
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Waffen/Blaser-R93.htm

Philip

Give me a Mauser98 anyday anytime anywhere.

Interesting safety on tose new brnos.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Kilroy Was There! roger

Yes he was!! Did you ever go anywhere back in the day where you didn't see that scrawled overseas on something or other, Rog?

Rumor had it he first appeared in a Brit maternaty ward late "43" early "44" . roger

This is where we are at today .... with modern Mausers .... yes, they cost a bit more.



Gottfried PRECHTL FIREARMS, Auf der Aue 3, D - 69488 Birkenau / GERMANY

The remanufactured MAUSER M 98 Action for standard calibres

(with double square bridge - without thumb notch)

We manufacture the Mauser M 98 standard action due to the original drawing of Paul Mauser from the early thirties. All MAUSER patents are considered.

We made the following modernizations :

We reduced the bore for the firing pin from 2mm to 1,7mm because of to take into consideration the higher gas pressure of modern cartidges.
We extended the external diameter of the bolt about 0,2mm.
For to guarantee an excellent bolt slide, we reduced the stipulated case tolerance of the bolt about 50%.
We extended the clearance of the magazine opening of the breech case about 1mm for to have space enough for high volume cartridges. Because of this we had also the possibility to enlarge the magazine box.

The magazine box is available in the MAUSER standard sizes and original MAUSER 9,3x62 size - allongated about 1,5mm. Therefore also large cartridges like .300 Win.Mag. 8x68S, 9,3X64 have space enough and it is not necessary to machine the magazine boxes. The large box has an internal length of 86,5mm. We deliver the magazine boxes with fitted in magazine cover which can be opened by the snapper in the trigger guard. On it’s back the magazine cover is as long as it can be centred by the trigger guard.

For to guarantee a higher safety of the spring, the extractor is allongated about 17mm.
The firing pin nut is delivered with close nose. Therefore also modern shotgun triggers can be installed.
Due to the design of the latest original MAUSER civil versions, we made a stud on the backside of the clearance for the bolt handle which serves as an additional guide and safety for the chamber.

Free selection of the material for the breech case : anealed swiss high-tensile steel with tensile strength between 900 and 1100N/qmm, or a modern high power chrome-manganese steel, colour case hardenable with a core strength over 800 N/qmm

No Compromises :

We made this technical development for more reliability and safety for the marksman.
We cut 14,8 kg of solid steel for each MAUSER standard action which has a total wheigth of only 1.350 kg after finishing. All parts are machined from the solid material.
We deliver all breech cases hardened - or hardened after engraving. All surfaces are polished and ready for mounting - no polishing or filing is necessary.

The action is prepared for scope mount and is in the standard delivered with the original MAUSER bolt sleeve and Recknagel shotgun trigger.

We manufacture also complete rifles in different versions, calibres and barrel legthes.

New Firing Pin Safety (patented GOLmatic three position safety). The new horizontal GOLmatic three position safety is equipped with an additional locking for the safety lever for avoiding an unintentional disengagement of the safety. The patented GOLmatic three position safety is also available for Winchester type 70, and Remington type 700.

Warrior

To me, shooting the 8x57 is just like shooting a 308 or a 30-06. They are all so reliable, and easy to deal with. I like the 8x57 because it's associated with the Mauser 98 action. It's just difficult to get better than that as a pure hunting rifle combo.

I have two custom 8x57s, and somebody is going to inherit them, in good condition. I'm lucky that one of them likes the 175 gr Sierra, and I have no problem feeding it what it likes. The other one isn't so picky, but it seems to favor the 195 gr Hornady, which is ok with me. One is on a Mark x action and the other is on a CZ 550 medium action from Brownells. IMO, they are both so good that you just can't buy an over-the-counter rifle at any price that's better.

Also, for the record, I want a 8x60s, built on a real original 98 mauser action. Fortunately, I have two such actions. One is a VZ24 and the other a S42, both made in 1937. That's a project that I'll finish, if something drastic doesn't happen to get in the way.

So, with that said, I have a pet project rifle that has been in progress a long time. It started before the 325 WSM was offered. Although I like the 98 Mauser, and consider this blasphemy, this is the action I'll use for the project.









The cartridge is the 323 Hollis. The idea was to wildcat the equivilent of the 8x68S, with readily available brass. I can hardly wait to stoke it with a good dose of H4350. The best aspect is that with H4895,(for example) it can easily duplicate the 8x57 or the 8x60S, and with slower powder, the 8x64s, or the 8x68. It will come real close to the 8mm Rem Mag, and as a pratical matter, equal or exceed the 325 WSM, with less pressure.

I have a new and sharp reamer from PTG, and a new set of dies form Redding, and 200 pieces of new Norma brass, and uncountable 220 gr Hornady bullets, and a bunch of 220 gr Sierras and Swifts, and also a bunch of 200 gr Noslers and Barnes TSX.

I don't see a down side to this cartridge, except that it seems that I have had an unusual bit of problems in just getting the rifle put together.

This action is especially good. It's already set up as a magnum from the factory, and feeds perfectly. The magazine length is perfect for the cartridge. The trigger is crisp and has the set trigger too. This action has been converted to the three position safety. The lugs are lapped, and the face of the reciever squared. Also, I have a really pretty factory stock to go with it. It's a nice piece of walnut.

This is the 8x57 +++.

KB

KB,

Good post - nice project.
Love it when one is serious about his rifles.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Why?.....It didn't do the Germans any good!

I beg to differ; it took them through 2 world wars quite adequately. Germany lost the war because of other reasons, not because of the 8x57 mm Mauser. Let us not criticize the Mauser for what the Nazis did. It is about the Mauser that Paul Mauser perfected in 1998 and the 8x57 mm as a cartridge. Also Paul Mauser died before WW1, and had nothing to do with wars - he was simply a gunsmith and a businessmann. Most other countries benefited from the Paul Mauser's design, including the US for the ultimate development of the 30-06.

I came across this very fitting piece where an American was answered who obviously was also ignorant about the 8x57, and I quote:-

"I don't blame you however as most Americans know little about this round. Part of the problem lies in the fact that US manufactured ammunition of this type (8x57) in general is way underpowered, not even approaching exploring the true capabilities of this excellent round. The way to go is full power European ammunition, where you can easily get 200 gr bullets doing 2,700+ ft/s through a 23.5 inch barrel no problem.

During WW2 the 8x57mm JS seated the 198 gr sS FMJBT projectile, the most aerodynamically efficient rifle bullet of the entire war with a G1 BC of .593 at supersonic speeds and .557 at subsonic speeds (That's considerably higher than a modern .308 M118 sniper bullet). With a typical muzzle velocity of 760 m/s through a 600mm barrel this translates into a 1,000+ meter effective range, the bullet still traveling at Mach 1.07 at 1,000 meters under International Standard Atmospheric conditions. This bullet enabled German machine gunners to engage Allied troops out to 3,500 meters in the North African desert during WW2, leading the British to sometimes believing they were under automatic cannon fire. Furthermore German snipers recorded confirmed kills out past 1,100 meters with this round (ex. Matthäus Hetzenauer).

Today you can still easily duplicate this performance by either handloading, purchasing select European ammunition or WW2 German surplus.

European munitions manufacturer Sellier & Bellot are currently offering a 196 gr FMJBT in the 8x57mm JS caliber with an average G1 BC of .557 and a muzzle velocity of 790 m/s through a 600mm barrel: Sellier & Bellot - Your ammunition company

Sierra are currently offering their 200 gr HPBT Match King projectile with a G1 BC of .520 for handloaders: Sierra Bullets - The Bulletsmiths

WW2 era Karabiner 98k fired to 1,000 yards against an 18 inch target (human upper torso size), using handloaded 200 gr Sierra Match King projectiles (BC . 520), achieving 3 hits out of 4 tries once zeroed in, and this with a 60 year old rifle in very windy weather:

WWII German Mauser 98K rifle at 1,000 yards: ...... http://youtu.be/q3VBsjcS1hE

Kris S"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sierra offers their 220 gr GameKing with a BC of .521, and you can get that going to 2,550 ft/s in the 8x57, which should make it suitable for longer shots in the field if need be, but of course there is always something better out there for long ranges. The point here being though that the 8x57 des not have to take a back seat to the 30-06. If you want something excellent for long range hunting then calibers such as the 8x68mm S or .338 Lapua Magnum are good choices. The latter being employed today in modern war fare in places like Afghanistan as a sniper rifle.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Interesting safety on tose new brnos.

Somebody finally put the safety where it belongs, for a right hander--

SSR

Military use (from http://cruzdeguerra.com/index....ts_id=73&language=en)

"Due to the cartridge's high performance and versatility it has been adopted by the armed forces of various governments, including Turkey, China, Egypt, former German African colonies, and pre-NATO Germany. Its military use continues today in the former Yugoslavia in weapons like the Zastava M76 sniper rifle and the license-built MG-42 copy, the SARAC M53 machine gun. In 7.92 mm caliber, there were many German military versions of the cartridge, and Germany never stopped its development of different variations until the end of World War II. The bullet lengths varied a great deal through the different types, but all were loaded to an overall length of 80.5 mm (3.169 in). The Germans had started using steel cases in World War I, and by the end of 1943, most German ammunition had that type of case.

German tracer bullets were the best put out by any country — beautifully streamlined and with excellent ballistics. German armor piercers were also very good, being very stable and accurate at long ranges. The most common type of armor piercer had a hardened-steel core with plated-steel jacket and weighed 11.5 grams (178 grains). Other types appeared which used tungsten carbide and combinations for cores. Sintered iron and mild steel cores also came into use in ball ammunition.

German Luftwaffe (Air force) 7.92 mm high velocity machine gun ammunition loaded with the 10.15 gram (157 grain) PmK (Phosphor mit Stahlkern/phosphorus with steel core) ball bullets or the 10.85 gram (167 grain) B (Beobachtung/observation) ball bullets, featured a 15% higher muzzle velocity than standard ammunition due to a more powerful smokeless powder charge. These rounds were designated as V-patronen, with 'V' being short for 'Verbessert' which means 'improved' in German. The PmK ball bullets were armour-piercing incendiary bullets; the HE incendiary B ball bullets contained phosphorus and had a pellet in it which exploded on contact with any target, however frail. The B ball bullet was like any other high explosive or incendiary bullet, illegal for anti-personnel use according to the Hague Conventions. The Germans maintained that it was used mainly for observation and range-finding, but observers report having seen them in rifle clips and machine gun belts. The regular German infantry units were not allowed to use this round; however German snipers sometimes used this high velocity round to gain an extra 150 m (164 yards) effective range and cause horrendous wounds. The standard issue Karabiner 98k rifles handled these higher pressure cartridges without issues."

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
I thought I might mention that, with a few possible exceptions, there have never been any .318 groove diameter 8X57s used by the German military. The early barrels in the M88s were about .320 to .321 groove diameter...

DEVELOPMENT

In 1886, the French Army unveiled the Modelle 1886 “Lebel” rifle. There was an immediate reaction in German military circles bordering on hysteria. Why? Because the Lebel was the world’s first small bore military rifle using an efficient smokeless powder cartridge. Now, the Lebel, which used a tubular magazine located under the barrel was not a particularly noteworthy design, but the power and flat trajectory of the new French 8mm round far outclassed the 11mm Reichspatrone black powder round used in the contemporary German infantry rifle, the Mauser 71/84.

In this rather charged atmosphere, the German Gewehr Prfungs Kommission (GPK - Rifle Testing Commission) went to work. Initially, the idea was to revise the Mauser Gewehr 71/84 to use a small caliber smokeless powder round based on the old 11mm black powder Reichspatrone. To this extent, production machinery was ordered from the Ludwig Loewe Company of Berlin-Charlottenburg in December, 1887. As things progressed, the GPK became disillusioned with this technical approach, and so a rather strange hybrid of ideas took shape.

The bolt design was highly revised by a Spandau Arsenal technician named Louis Schlegelmilch and features a separate bolt head. The ensuing rifle had a Schlegelmilch/Mauser action, a five shot clip loaded Mannlicher style magazine (note: while the clip falls out as with the Mannlicher clips, this one was markedly improved in that it could be loaded with either end down as opposed to only one end on the true Mannlicher), and a full length barrel jacket designed by Armand Mieg. The pitch and profile of the rifling were copied directly from that of the Lebel. The cartridge chosen was a modified Swiss style rimless design based on the ideas of Eduard Rubin. By March 23, 1888, the Bavarian military observer in Berlin, General von Xylander reported that the development was virtually complete.

Field trials for the new rifle were completed in November, 1888, and the GPK recommended that it be adopted immediately. The adoption orders were signed by Kaiser Wilhelm II on November 12, 1888. Issue of the Gewehr 88 as the new rife was designated, were first made in the spring of 1889 to the XV and XVI Armeekorps stationed in Elsass-Lothringen. Issue to the Bavarian military units began in October 1889, and by August 1890, all Prussian, Saxon, and Wrttemberger line units had been re-equipped.

The Gewehr 88 was made by the three primary Prussian arsenals at Danzig, Erfurt, and Spandau, a smaller Bavarian establishment at Amberg, as well as several private contractors, including the Ludwig Loewe Company, Osterreichische Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft (Steyr), and Haenel. Production figures up to the time production ceased in 1897 are as follows:

Prussian Government Arsenals 750,000
Amberg 425,000
Loewe 425,000
Steyr 300,000
Haenel 100,000
Total 1,675,000

ISSUES

Rumors concerning breech explosions began almost as soon as the Gewehr 88 entered service. Adding fuel to the fire, many Germans asked why Mauser had not been chosen to design the rifle. Eventually, Hermann Ahlwardt, a Berlin schoolmaster, cast the blame on the Ludwig Loewe Company. He claimed that Loewe had bribed government arms inspectors to accept inferior products. It was no coincidence that the Loewe family happened to be Jewish, as was the owner of the plant making the new smokeless propellant. The German press went rabid exploiting the rumor, and the Gewehr 88 became known as the Judenflinte, or “Jewish Rifle.”

The truth was less interesting. The Gewehr 88 had been rushed into service, and still had engineering issues to be overcome (not unlike the initial issues of M16 rifles to the US Army). Neck splitting issues with the cartridges were overcome by annealing the necks. Double loading was cured by redesigning the recessed bolt face. Overpressure issues were alleviated by deepening the rifling grooves on later guns and strengthening the chamber.

MODIFICATIONS

Gewehr 88/• : Indicates a post-January 9, 1891 barrel strengthened from the original design by the substitution of a straight sided cone for the original concave taper of the barrel directly in front of the chamber.

Gewehr 88/Z: Indicates either a new production or re-rifled barrel with groove depth of 0.15mm. Modification, which dates from July, 1896, was designed to eliminate the severe barrel wear and chamber pressure issues caused by original design (0.10mm groove depth). Geschoss-88 bullet diameter was 8.1mm, reduced to a bore size of 7.9mm upon firing.

Gewehr 88/S: Indicates a rifle with a newly made (not re-rifled) “Z” barrel with the chamber bored out to accept the larger diameter (8.22mm as opposed to 8.1mm) S-Patrone ammunition. Modification dates from 1903.

Gewehr 88/05: Indicates a rifle with “S” modifications and revisions to enable charger loading (as opposed to clip loading), including: Charger guide blocks fixed to the front of the sides of the split receiver bridge, ground down left receiver wall to enable the thumb to press the cartridges out of the charger into the magazine, hemispherical channel milled into the rear of the receiver ring to provide clearance for the nose of the S-Patrone bullet, magazine narrowed by addition of pressed steel strip, and shortened by the addition of a steel block, a spring loaded cartridge retainer in the left wall of the magazine, and closure of the opening in the bottom of the magazine well with a sheet steel cover. All such modifications made at Spandau beginning in1905.

Gewehr 88/14: Same as the 88/05, but with noticeably inferior standards of fit and finish. Charger guides are welded to front of the split receiver bridge and crudely shaped. Cartridge retainer is angled forwards instead of horizontal as on the 88/05.

Considering they we're using CNC machinery back then to build these rifles I'll venture to say that groove diameter could have more then likey been smaller as well as larger. Your statement isn't entirely true.

I came across this piece of info, but have no contact details.

"Piles of Russian captured and consfiscated k98's. Actually the Russians reblued or painted them and kept them in storage for future use. They are selling them now because as a main battle rifle they are kind of obsolete because everyone else is using automatic rifles. It has the German Eagle with the swachtika under it and the number 37, then it has some wings with number 280 on it and another set of wings with 358. On the reciever there is only the number "42" no lettering in front of it or after it. On the very top of the receiver close to where the site is ther is the German Eagle swachtika."

Selling for for $189



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

This is all mental masturbation. I load the 338 Federal. I can get 2650 fps with a 200 Hot Cor and 2530 fps with a 225 Deepcurl. This is from a 22" barrel. Load the 8x57 has hot as you want, it's not going to beat those numbers by any meaningful amount.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Scott,

This guy is pushing a 200 gr NP in his 8x57 @ 2730 fps as opposed to your 2650 fps, but that is not the gist of the matter.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...091073651#2091073651

The whole idea is not to beat any caliber for that matter with velocity, as that is not its niche nor its virtue. It is to have a medium bore shooting a 200 to 220 grain bullet at moderate velocity and at a low pressure on Mauser actions .... and custom built as well to one's liking.


Warrior

I'm the "Guy".

That 2730fps 200gr Nosler Partition load in the 8X57IS (23 1/2" bbl) is still @ a modest 60,000 psi according to quickload predictions.

I suspect that the 338 Feeble loads you are quoting are a bit higher than that.

80fps more Mv at a lower chamber pressure W/a bullet that has a better BC & SD is nothing to sneeze at BTW.

It's pretty darned accurate too.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Warrior,

You just proved my point. 80 FPS more from a longer barrel is nominal at best.

I'm not knocking the 8mm Mauser, I think it's a nice cartridge. I just don't think it's "hands down" better than a 338 Federal.

Oh, yeah...those Mausers look heavy. Hopefully they come with a gun bearer

This 98 Mauser weighs 7 1/2# as you see it.

It's the same rifle that shot the group in the picture posted above.



Loaded to 338 Federal pressure the difference would be about 130fps W/a 200gr bullet. That's nearly 325 ft# more Me & the farther you get out, the bigger the advantage will be W/the better BC of the smaller diameter (.323) 200gr bullet.

The point isn't so much that the 8X57 is better than the 338 federal (it is) the point is, why develope a "new" cartridge that isn't any better (aguably it's inferior) than the one that already exists?

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
I came across this piece of info, but have no contact details.

On the reciever there is only the number "42" no lettering in front of it or after it. On the very top of the receiver close to where the site is ther is the German Eagle swachtika."

Selling for for $189


Warrior

That "42" would indicate an Oberndorf Mauser manufactured 1938-1940.

http://www.mausercentral.com/f...iewtopic.php?t=11338

quote:

Considering they we're using CNC machinery back then to build these rifles I'll venture to say that groove diameter could have more then likey been smaller as well as larger. Your statement isn't entirely true.

You do not CNC bore diameter. It is cut with a drill, a reamer and what ever rifling process that is used. Those tools are measured with micrometers and bore gauges.
If you would like more information on the subject take a hike over to the Gunboards forum and look up a thread by a collector named MAG. He has actually measured more than 300 GEW 88s bore diamters. Check what his data says....
The standard land diameter was never .318.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Considering they we're using CNC machinery back then to build these rifles I'll venture to say that groove diameter could have more then likey been smaller as well as larger. Your statement isn't entirely true.

You do not CNC bore diameter. It is cut with a drill, a reamer and what ever rifling process that is used. Those tools are measured with micrometers and bore gauges.
If you would like more information on the subject take a hike over to the Gunboards forum and look up a thread by a collector named MAG. He has actually measured more than 300 GEW 88s bore diamters. Check what his data says....
The standard land diameter was never .318.

I'm not saying that's how the bores and rifling were done. I'm referring to the advance machining and skills there are today that they didn't have back then. Are you saying that they could build more precision machines back then with tighter clearances and consistency that we can do today?

Yes I have read Mags report and if you reread it. He states the bore/groove sizes here: 1889 to mid 1890- .314 - .3215 ,,, Mid 1890 to mid 1896 .311 - .3215 ,, Mid 1896 to end - .311 - .323+ .

From his associate: The correct specs & information is as follows.

1888- 1890 .3215" / .314 These are the original rifling specs that were discontinued because the bore wore out too quickly.


1890- xxx .3215" / .311 This is the "standard" Gew.88 rifling configuration. Probably 90% of Commission Rifles will fall in this category.


1896-xxx. 323+" / .311 These are the "Z" marked rifles.
These were the first german rifles to have these specifications.


189x-??? .318" / .311 A small minority of Gew 88 fall into this category.


1920- 30s . 318" / .308 The Czechs made replacement barrels for Gew 88s and are commonly found on 88s from South America. These can be identified by the presence of Czech proofs, and a Z in a circle under the shroud.

quote:

That "42" would indicate an Oberndorf Mauser manufactured 1938-1940.

Now this should be the very best then - basically at the height of their pre-war production and just the beginning of the war. This is a treasure trove and wish I could get to it to behave like a kid in a candy store.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

That "42" would indicate an Oberndorf Mauser manufactured 1938-1940.

Now this should be the very best then - basically at the height of their pre-war production and just the beginning of the war. This is a treasure trove and wish I could get to it to behave like a kid in a candy store.

Warrior

I just so happen to have a "42" code 98 that was NOT Russian captured. It still had all the marks intact.

The fit & finish are not what one would expect for a "milsurp".

I also have a "ce" code J P Sauer & Son action made in 1943.

Although that action had a stamped triggergaurd, (albeit W/a milled floorplate) it too had good fit & finish despite the late manufacture date.

Russian Capture German K98 Mauser:

http://youtu.be/69gXSzdMM0c

WWII Wehrmacht S/42G Mauser 98K All Matching Rifle:

http://youtu.be/-p1WzZwfJuE

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Considering they we're using CNC machinery back then to build these rifles

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Considering they we're using CNC machinery back then to build these rifles

Yep.

WJ,

You don't even load the 338 Federal. If you think 80 FPS with a slightly longer barrel is significant, you are delusional. The loads I'm using are book loads from the Alliant website so they aren't dangerous loads.

Are you actually using a Chrony or relying on QL for your velocity?

By the way, the 338 Fed is accurate too....yes, even a plain old Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

The point isn't so much that the 8X57 is better than the 338 federal (it is) the point is, why develope a "new" cartridge that isn't any better (aguably it's inferior) than the one that already exists?

Seriously? How can you call yourself Wildcat Junkie?