quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Seriously folks....every 8 X 57 I've owned was because I was building a new rifle and wanted an action. Further every action I've owned that was capable of handling the 8 X 57 was also capable of handling the .30-06 family of cartridges.

To make things worse, I want my Mauser actions professionally heat treated and this means stripping the action of everything including the barrel.....and I wouldn't consider rebarreling to a ' X 57 round when I can rebarrel to a '-06 round. Being in the ole USA, this makes a lot of sense.....being European might be different.....but this is not me!

As much as I know what a fine cartridge the 8 X 57 is.....it's still not a choice I'd make as there's better choices every time.....the .30-06 case is still king here!

Bring back the 8 X 57?.....not if I can help it.....there's a better choice for me!

Same for the 7 X 57.....I just can't see rebarreling to a 7 X 57 when he can have a .280 Remington chamber for the same price.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Seriously folks....every 8 X 57 I've owned was because I was building a new rifle and wanted an action. Further every action I've owned that was capable of handling the 8 X 57 was also capable of handling the .30-06 family of cartridges.

To make things worse, I want my Mauser actions professionally heat treated and this means stripping the action of everything including the barrel.....and I wouldn't consider rebarreling to a ' X 57 round when I can rebarrel to a '-06 round. Being in the ole USA, this makes a lot of sense.....being European might be different.....but this is not me!

As much as I know what a fine cartridge the 8 X 57 is.....it's still not a choice I'd make as there's better choices every time.....the .30-06 case is still king here!

Bring back the 8 X 57?.....not if I can help it.....there's a better choice for me!

Same for the 7 X 57..... I just can't see rebarreling to a 7 X 57 when he can have a .280 Remington chamber for the same price.

Exactly right.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

8x57 -------------- 200 gr @ 2,575 fps (CIP P-Max =56,564 psi)
.338-06 ----------- 200 gr @ 2,720 fps (SAAMI standardized in 1998, Pressure = ???)
.338 Win Mag---- 200 gr @ 2,950 fps (CIP P-Max = 65,000 psi)

Warrior

Warrior,

FYI, pressure for the 338-06 is 65000 PSI.

We're not suggesting it be mandatory, just that you stretch your personal envelope.

If you can do anything better in the "30-06" family you can do it waaaaaaaaay better with the 2.5" standard magnums. Even better with the WSM's that allow you to seat the bullets out farther.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Timely thread. My wife has a M70 FW in .257 Rob. that she loves but is in need of something bigger. I was thinking of getting her a twin M70 FW in 8x57. Since I don't think they come from the factory in that flavour, what would be the easiest to have converted?

Dean

Without devolving into Parochial chest beating ..... I think your wife would be well served with an 8x57. I hope the trophy photo of my son and camel (A mature young male just short of it's prime) demonstrates what it is capable of.

The load was a mild one: 47 grains 2208 (Varget) under a Hornady 170 RNSP. Muzzle velocity is an estimated 2,500fps. Similar to .308 ballistics with a marginally larger frontal area. Recoil is very manageable, ammunition and components cheap and accessable. Edit: In a similar action bolt throw is the same as the .257R.

Lothar Walther (amongst others) make excellent quality barrels so any M70 or shot out Mauser '98 can be re-barrelled at minimal cost.

I thought I might mention that, with a few possible exceptions, there have never been any .318 groove diameter 8X57s used by the German military. The early barrels in the M88s were about .320 to .321 groove diameter...

Here we go again. So F@cking what the .30-06 was made into the Whelen. There is the 9.3x57, 20 years earlier that only gives up a minor percentage of V & E. Why did you exclude U.S. .30 calibers? 9.3 shoots 286gr. Energy is on par w/ the 200gr .338, w/ very little felt recoil.

8x57 is an awesome round! If MacArthur had left the M1 Garand alone, the .30-06 would have been dead. 276 Pederson would have been it.

Prvi Partizan is an ammunition manufacturer, located in Užice, Serbia and founded in 1928.
Their products are available worldwide. Prvi Partizan cartridges carry the headstamp "ППУ"
Their ammo is much even cheaper than our own local brand, called PMP and is widely used.

With regard to the 8x57 mm, PMP does not offer factory ammo nor the components (bullets & brass).
The Prvi ammo covers a range of bullet weights from 139 grains to 250 grains in Softs and FMJ's.
Muzzle velocities out of a 24 inch barrel are as follows:

139 gr SP @ 2,690 fps
175 gr PSP @ 2,543 fps
175 gr HP-BT @ 2,543 fps
185 gr Grom @ 2,461 fps
196 gr SP @ 2,461 fps
198 gr FMJ-BT @ 2,428 fps
250 gr FMJ-BT @ 2,165 fps

Clearly the cartridge is more alive in Europe than in Africa or the US.

Warrior

With regard to European countries there are some restrictions and/or permits that must be obtained if you want to own a cartridge that were involved in military conflicts. Here is a posting depicting the situation in France, and here we can see that 7x57 and 8x57 appears on the list - to me, this is the illusion of control, but be it as it may, go here and check this exhaustive list:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=806107444#806107444

Perhaps we can get an update as to what the postion is in some other European countries including Scandinavia, if any. Would be interesting to know.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
With regard to European countries there are some restrictions and/or permits that must be obtained if you want to own a cartridge that were involved in military conflicts.

Insert "some" before "European".
Far as I know, this limitation only applies in France.

- Lars/Finland

Just a note regarding the the 8x60 Mauser cartridge. It came available after WWI NOT because the Germans were disappointed with the 8x57 or looking for something better.

Just after WWI, the Germans were starving and they needed both firearms and hard currency. They had lots of 8x57s Mausers hidden away which they could use or sell covertly as individuals, but they couldn't legally make any more 8x57s because of the terms of the Versailles treaty they were forced to sign at the end of the war.

So, they did the natural thing...to get hard currency, and to be able to make or sell them without being in violation of the treaty, and to be able to openly keep them for hunting food and to protect themselves from each other, they rechambered them to use a case 3 m/m longer, but otherwise very much the same as the 8x57...essentially the same case head, same body diameter, etc. Sort of like making a .30-06 into a .30 Gibbs, but not as much change involved.

Turned out they didn't need to do all that, though. When Herr Hitler came to power, or perhaps even a red-hair before, Germany just ignored the Versailles treaty and started its own re-armament program. As part of that program, it made millions more 8x57s.

To the best of my limited knowledge, the Germans never adopted the 8x60 cartridge as a military round. Apparently either they didn't think it was significantly better for killing animals the weight and approximate size of deer (men, that is), or the "better" it possessed wasn't worth the price of the change over and perhaps a few pfennings per round more ammo cost multiplied by many, many millions of rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Seriously folks....every 8 X 57 I've owned was because I was building a new rifle and wanted an action. Further every action I've owned that was capable of handling the 8 X 57 was also capable of handling the .30-06 family of cartridges.

To make things worse, I want my Mauser actions professionally heat treated and this means stripping the action of everything including the barrel.....and I wouldn't consider rebarreling to a ' X 57 round when I can rebarrel to a '-06 round. Being in the ole USA, this makes a lot of sense.....being European might be different.....but this is not me!

I respect your opinion and your choices as I am sure you do mine.
When I got out of the service in Jan. "57" we were buying all kinds of military surplus rifles for under $15.00. The Mod 98s and Springfields were the best. The Springfields generally cost a little more. So a lot of us who didn't know any better were buying these rifles and actually were foolish enough to think we were enjoying ourselves when we took them out and killed stuff. Golly! I wonder how many deer, elk, moose and on and on were brought down by us unknowledgeable hunters? Very few of us if any thought of removing a "usable" barrel , rework the action and go with the American 06. I did ,however, modify some of the 98s and rechamber them into 8mm-06s, One such is still seeing service in White Horse, Yukon after spending nearly 40 years in Alaska; same military stock just lightened a whole bunch
Now later in life when I got hit with the wildcat bug usable barrels did come off and new ones put on, as you have first hand knowledge of. Than too, there is more available recreational money today than there was in the harder times.
The whole point of this blurb is that if you have something adequate and you enjoy it than use it and let it make you happy.You don't have to put out a whole lot of bucks modifying it and it not serve you much better if at all. roger

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Don't have to on my account, but I can appreciate the round for what it is, and where it has been.

I owned one, and was not enamored enough with it to retain in my safe.

Plus there is the whole karma thing. Military cartridge of an aggressive war mongering country used in two world wars.

quote:

Plus there is the whole karma thing. Military cartridge of an aggressive war mongering country used in two world wars.

For my hunting purposes I need no Karma , neither bad nor good , I choose a rifle and a suitable cartridge. That´s it

220 gr Woodleigh in the 8 mm Mauser:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=526108027#526108027

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by heavenknows:

quote:

Plus there is the whole karma thing. Military cartridge of an aggressive war mongering country used in two world wars.

For my hunting purposes I need no Karma , neither bad nor good , I choose a rifle and a suitable cartridge. That´s it

Agreed. And since this is not the Political Forum, I'll ask one "karma" question and then drop that subject entirely. Which country in the world has tried to force the "form & benefits" of its political system on Viet Nam, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, the Balkans, Korea, and others through the use of military might in "nation building" during the last 50 years?

I say, "Forget all that B.S., and let's stick to guns and ammo here."

Good point, Lloyd, the events of the 20thC. which saw millions of the finest young men of Europe as well as millions of innocent citizens lose their lives are a matter for historical study and discussion.

This is about "medium bore" hunting rifles and we are ALL friends here and lets keep it that way.

quote:

but I can appreciate the round for what it is, and where it has been.

My first statement.

quote:

Plus there is the whole karma thing. Military cartridge of an aggressive war mongering country used in two world wars.

Dont' own a 223, 308, of 30-06 either. I do own a couple of 6.5x55's though. Darn Scandinavians.

quote:

I say, "Forget all that B.S., and let's stick to guns and ammo here."

I agree, sorry for getting off track.

My intention was not to raise an ire.

As long as the human race puts people in power, we are going to have abuses of said power. Unfortunatley, the common man will never have much control.

1) A little known fact ...

http://www.budsgunshop.com/cat...hp/products_id/52463

2) Then there is .323" 100gr. copper flat nose bullet at 3100 fps made by Impala Bullets of SA.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/..._8x57_JS#Post4267298

3) These are still listed on the RWS site:

a) RWS 8 x 57 JS DK 11,7G

RWS Twin-core Ammunition 8x57mm JS 180 Grain - Muzzle Velocity: 2690 fps


b) RWS 8 x 57 JS HMK 12,1G

RWS H-Mantel Ammunition 8x57mm JS 186 Grain - Muzzle Velocity: 2625 fps
H-Mantel projectiles designed with two lead cores with different hardnesses for decreased fragmentation.

c) RWS 8 x 57 JS TMR 12,7G
RWS Soft-Point Ammunition 8x57mm JS 196 Grain - Muzzle Velocity: 2592 fps

d) RWS 8 x 57 JS EVO 13,0G

RWS EVO (Evolution bullet is bonded) Ammunition 8x57mm JS 201 Grain - Muzzle Velocity: 2395 fps

Warrior

Then something that needs comment on Mauser actions and more specifically those cartridges that Paul Mauaser chambered for on his actions:-

"During the Second World War the load for the 8 x 57 mm was a 198-grain bullet at 2,575 fps yielding a pressure of around 49,500 psi.

DWM originally built their receivers to handle a normal operating pressure of 42,650 psi for 8x57. There was a factor of safety added too, by the way.

here's a link to the Hodgdon info:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/8x57.php (go to main site and page through till you get to the cartridge in question to see a very comprehensive load table from the lightest to the heaviest bullet weights)

Let me first say, I have never designed a heat treatment for a rifle receiver. However, I do design heat treatments for other parts all the time.

The early Mauser receivers are virtually un-hardenable because a very low carbon steel was used for their construction. Modern heat treating of such a receiver will do basically nothing for it unless carbone is added. This is something any sane person will agree with.

The most common form of adding that carbon today is gas carburization. In the past, case hardening using bone meal for a carbon source was more common.

Essentially carburization will add carbon to the outer shell of the part, up to several thou deep depending on exposure time, steel being carburized, surface finish, temperature, etc. But basically, in the end, only the outer skin has appreciable carbon content.

Once this receiver is hardenend, you could make the receiver shell into austentitic steel if you really wanted to. It would be glass hard and only the sharpest file would cut it. It would probably also be too brittle. Pearlititc steel is more reasonable IMHO. But at the end of the day, only a few thou of thikness will take the heardening. this will impart incredible wear resistance, but does nothing for core strength.

What I fail to see is how increasing surface hardness will stop plastic deformation at the lug seats, or anywhere else? Lug setback is a result of shear stress on the lug seats in the CORE MATERIAL, not the surface skin which has virtually no shear resistance anyhow???

From a steel's standpoint - it just doesn't make sense that re-hardening the surface will in any way prevent a receiver from experiencing setback.

I stand to be educated.

Claven2"

I have an old B model Mauser from 1913, as my first real Mauser98. The 198grain bullet of the 8x57 should do around the 790-800M/sec to bring the caliber upto where it really belongs.

Dear Warrior:

As far as "re-heat treating/re-caburizing" an 1898 Mauser receiver is concerned, all of my research since 1998 conforms with your well articulated assessment above.

Many of the big names that I've contacted to confirm my research on the illusory benefits of the re-heat treating of 1898 Mauser receivers agree that it is a waste of time and/or dangerous if you over do it, and make the case depth too deep. Brittleness and grenade like fragmentation can occur if the case depth is over done.

Also, the core assays of WW-I 1898 Mauser actions show a more complex steel alloy than the often repeated, but never supported claim that the receivers were merely 1030-1040 carbon steel.

I leave my 1898 actions alone.

I've had two actions show no complaints nor setback with hot loaded 6.5-06 and 7x57 AI rounds.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

P. S.: Like other "political" arguments, I'm sure this topic will never die, no matter how many facts are hurled at it.

From: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/...27s+.30-06-a03369417

Some more info from the American perspective:-

"The 8mm Mauser is to Germany what the .30-06 Springfield is to the United States; namely, the transitional caliber that not only brought our respective countries into the smokeless powder age, but saw both nations through two world wars. Also, each became the sporting cartridge of its country, the one against which all newcomers were judged. Understandably, much has been written here regarding our own .30-06 but only rarely is the 8mm Mauser and the tremendous influence it had on the development of our martial cartridges ever given its just due.

The 8mm is but one of several cartridges designed by the renowned firearms genius, Peter Paul Mauser. Most of the other Mauser-designed cartridges were devised to satisfy specific requirements of the many countries which contracted the famous manufacturing firm to supply them with shoulder arms in the late 19th century. It was a time of such rapid advancement in firearms technology that at least a nodding familiarity with it is vital to the understanding of how the smokeless powder era came to be and how it so greatly influenced world politics. It was a time when the quantum leap from muzzle-loading black powder arms to modern repeating rifles spanned a mere three decades.

Imagine the anxiety and frustration of the military minds of the day as the world entered the 1870s. Here in America we had just gotten over a bloody civil war, so the usual incentive for rapid firearms development was lacking. Yet our progress was no less rapid or spectacular than in Europe. But "over there" the atmosphere was quite different; it was a simmering cauldron of feverish nationalism, arbitrary alliances and bickering monarchies glaring across borders at one another. Advancements in arms technology were coming so fast as to nurture indecision. Each country wanted the state-of-the-art rifle for its army, yet the prospect of waiting perhaps 6 months might allow some new design to surface that would provide that critical performance edge.

The 1870s, then, saw every European power, and would-be power, rush to adopt some form of breech-loading rifle firing a self-contained metallic cartridge. Enter the Mauser brothers of the German state of Wurttemberg. Paul was the gunsmith/inventor, Wilhelm the businessman.

Paul's energy was directed toward developing a cartridge rifle loosely based on the bolt-action principle of the Dreyse needle gun which, at the time, was the standard arm of the German states. His work culminated in the form of the Model 1871 Mauser, a single-shot turnbolt rifle that was adopted first by Prussia, then soon by the other German states.

The 11mm cartridge Mauser designed for the '71 was the first of many he would father over the next 35 until his death in 1914. The 11mm Mauser (or 11.15 x 60R, or .43 Mauser) was a Berdan-primed centerfire. Loaded with 77 grains of black powder it propelled its 386-grain paper-patched lead bullet at approximately 1,435 feet per second (fps) from the 33-1/2-inch barrel of the standard issue rifle. As such, the 11mm Mauser cartridge was similar in size and performance to that of other weapons of the day: the 11mm Dutch Beaumont, France's 11mm Chassepot, Italy's 10.4mm Vetterli, Russian and Bulgarian Berdan .42s, and so on.

By the early 1880s many of Europe's military powers had repeating rifles. Mauser answered the challenge by refining a practical conversion of the Model 71 single shot into an under-barrel eight-shot tubular-magazine repeater. Designated the model 71/84, the action was updated but remained the basic '71 firing the same 11mm cartridge.

But even before the rearming of the German Army with the 71/84 rifle was completed, in 1886 France stunned the world with its 8mm Lebel. Suddenly, every other army on earth was holding obsolete ordnance. The three-phase rush from breech-loaders, to cartridge rifles, to repeaters that had occurred over the previous quarter century had been all for naught.

The 8mm Lebel was the first bottle-necked, small-bore smokeless powder cartridge to be adopted by a major power. It was physically smaller and lighter than its contemporaries, allowing the soldier to carry more ammo in less space. Its charge of smokeless powder sent a more streamlined jacketed bullet of 232 grains roughly 600 fps faster than anything else beng used at the time. The trajectory was decidedly flatter, hence the effective, was well as maximum ranges, were greatly increased. Gone were the plumes of smoke to betray positions and obscure targets.

By 1887 Waffenfabrik Mauser was an extremely successful company, but that success came primarily from building rifles for sale to other countries, not to the German States. Relatively few of the Model 71s and 71/84s were produced at Oberndorf; most were manufactured at the German government arsenals at Erfurt, Danzig, Spandau and Amburg. So busy were the Mauser brothers with foreign contracts--including a huge 500,000 gun order from Turkey in 1887--Paul Mauser was largely ignored when the Rifle Testing Commission at Spandau began work on a new smokeless powder rifle to replace the 71/84 arm. The Commission wanted the "packet loading" magazine developed by the Austrian, Ritter Ferdinand von Mannlicher. The result was the Commission Model 88, a rifle combining the basic trigger, firing mechanism and safety of the early Mauser black powder designs, but with dual-opposed locking lugs at the front of the bolt a la Lebel, and a Mannlicher-style, clip-fed magazine.

Another item borrowed from Mauser for the 88 Commission rifle was the small matter of the cartridge itself: the 7.9mm Model 88, also known as the 7.9x57, or 8x57, or 8mm Mauser. Gone was the rim and peculiar beveled base characteristic of earlier Nauser black powder cartridges; in its place, a rimless one with an extraction groove cut into the head. Instead of head-spacing on the protruding rim, the abrupt 20-degree shoulder angle provided the forward surface for this critical dimension. Mauser popularized but was not the originator of the rimless case; he borrowed the idea from the same Swiss Army officer who had perfected the metal-jacketed bullet that was no necessary with the higher velocities imparted by smokeless powder--Colonel Rubin.

For all intents and purposes the 7.9mm as used in the '88 Commission rifle typified the rimless centerfire cartridges that have endured to the present day. Having no protruding rim it would provide smoother, more reliable feeding in the box magazine rifles that soon appeared after 1888. As Paul Mauser saw it, the Mannlicher clip system adopted in the Commission rifle had another serious drawback: the sheet metal clip that held the five-round group of cartridge was actually inserted into, and became part of, the rifle. It was only after the last, or fifth cartridge, was stripped that the clip fell out through the open bottom of the magazine mortise allowing the rifle to be reloaded with a fresh clip. In the military-rifle context, the inability to fill or "top-up" a magazine at any time was considered a critical disadvantage.

It is ironic that, having been pretty much ignored by the German government in the development of his country's first modern-era rifle, Paul Mauser's latest design, the Model 1889, was adopted by Belgium the following year. Without question the '89 was superior to the rifle adopted by his own country. Not only was the basic design simpler and stronger, it incorporated Mauser's alternative to the Mannlicher clip system. Instead of a clip, per se, which became part of the magazine, the '89 used a "charger", a metal strip which held the five cartridges together in a line. With either end of the clip placed into the slot atop the receiver bridge, downward thumb pressure pushed the five cartridges out of the stripper and into the single-column magazine. The protruding stripper was then tossed clear when the bolt was pushed forward to load the first round. Moreover, a partially full magazine could be topped up at any time by thumbing in individual rounds. For the 1889, Mauser developed a .60 caliber version of his 8mm cartridge. Like all Mauser cartridges, it was based on the 8x57 case but shortened by 4mm to 53mm and necked down a bit to 7.65 or roughly .30 caliber (.311-.312). Belgium was the first of several nations to adopt the 7.65x53 Mauser, the others being Turkey, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Colombia, Paraguay, Ecuador and Peru. The 7.65's 211-grain round-nosed bullet at approximately 2,400 fps closely approximated performance of our own .30-40 Krag adopted in 1892.

The Model 89 represented the first modern-era rifle of Mauser design. Yet upon its adoption by Belgium, the manufacturing rights were also purchased. Consequently, no 1889s were ever manufactured at Oberndorf. The basic design was so good that Mauser kept modifying and improving it over the next 9 years and selling the result to many countries around the world. Simply stated, it was a period during which Germany watched one of its most illustrious native sons designing, building and selling to other nations guns superior to its own '88 Commission rifle. Finally, in 1898, after seeing Paul Mauser's ultimate, definitive development of the manual turnbolt action in the form of the Model 98, it was adopted by the German government, along with the same 7.9x57 round used previously in the '88 Commission rifle. During the transition, the 8mm Mauser cartridge remained virtually the same as when first adopted 10 years earlier, i.e., it retained the same .318 diameter, 227-grain round-nosed bullet. Nominal muzzle velocity was 2,035 fps from a 29-inch barrel.

The only substantive change in the original 8mm cartridge came in 1904. The new 98' action proved so strong and safe that ballistics could be improved upon by loading to higher pressures than the nominal 39,000 psi established for the Commission rifle. However, raising pressure reduced barrel life substantially because the relatively shallow rifling grooves in the '88s and early '98s did not grip the bullet firmly enough which, in turn, caused slurring and gas blow-by. To remedy the situation, the groove depth was increased by about .002 inch to .0065. The bore (land) diameter remained .311 but bullet (groove) diameter was increased from a nominal .318 to .323. Concurrent with the adoption of the larger .323 diameter bullet was a drastic reduction in not only the weight of the new bullet, but its shape as well. Technology now made possible the mass production of spitzer-shaped bullets so the old 227-grain round-nosed slug was scrapped and in its place a sharply-pointed projectile of 154 grains was substituted.

The resultant ballistics for the new "S" cartridge (for Spitzgeschos, or "pointed bullet"), was very impressive--so much so that the world powers again found themselves scrambling to catch up with Mauser. Loaded to approximately 44,000 pounds per square inch, the 8mm Mauser propelled its 154-grain bullet at 2,935 fps from its 29.3-inch barrel. (In later "98 Kar." rifles having barrels of 23.6 inches this same load would clock about 2,850 fps). As one can well imagine, the trajectory of the new "S" cartridge was substantially flatter than anything else around.

Anticipating the confusion that would arise in the commercial market over the change in bullet and barrel specs, somewhere along the line it was decided to assign a "J" suffix to the original .318 bore, and "JS" to the newer .323.

By 1905 all military Mausers were manufactured with the new .323 bore for the "S" cartridge. Since the only physical difference between this new round and the 1888 version was the .005-inch increase in the bullet, hence neck diameter, a good number of '88s simply ahd their chamber throats opened up to accept the new cartridges. Most of these conversions, however, did not include the deepening of the rifling grooves. In such cases the use of 8x57JS similar ammo in an 8X57J bore is a no-no; dangerously high pressures could result. With there being such a small difference in neck diameter, JS ammo can be coaxed into an unmodified J-chamber, especially if some throat erosion has occurred.

The best rule of thumb is as follows: unless the letter "S" appears somewhere on the chamber-portion of the barrel on any '88 Commission Rifle (or the Model 91 Carbine version of the same gun), do not attempt to use any S-type military ammo.

Most '98s manufactured prior to the adoption of the spitzer-bulleted cartridge in 1904 were properly converted, both chamber and bore-wise, and carry the "S" stamping on the barrel, as well as the land diameter, such a 7.91 or 7.92.

The great influx of surplus '88s and '98s appearing on these shores in the 1920s and 1930s posed a real problem for Remington and Winchester who naturally wanted to provide sporting ammo. According to Book of Rifles (Smith & Smith, Stackpole), the ammo makers got around the potential problem by loading commercial 8mm Mauser ammo with bullets of a compromise diameter, presumably around .320 inch, and to pressures of 37,000 psi. In that way commercial ammo could be used in any 8x57 rifle, whether bored and chambered to the 1888 or the "S" version. Checking current Remington ammo, however, I found bullet diameter to be .323 inch, so if a compromise was ever used, it's not being used today. Apparently, the ammo makers feel that the anemic nature of factory fodder is such that it won't cause problems even in the J bore. Another source, Ludwig Olson's Mauser Bolt Rifles, (Brownell & Son) states that commercial ammo was loaded with softer-jacketed bullets of .323 that would swage down in the smaller bore without causing pressure problems.

It took our own military establishment just a short time to acknowledge the undeniable superiority of Germany's spitzer-bulleted martial cartridge. In 1906, just three years after the adoptions of the new Model 1903 Springfield rifle and the equally new .30 caliber cartridge, the original 220-grain round-nosed bullet specification was changed to a 150-grain spitzer. Muzzle velocity went from a nominal 2,300 fps to 2,700 with an appropriately flatter trajectory. As such it was not quite as good as the 8mm's 154-grain bullet at 2,850 fps, even though the .30-06's larger case always made it capable of besting anything the 8x57 could do. Attesting to that fact is the 2,910 fps to which today's .30-06 sporting ammo is loaded in the 150-grain weight.

Again referring to Olson's Mauser Bolt Rifles, experience gained by the Germans in World War I showed the 154-grain "S" bullet to be too light for machine gun applications where maximum effective ranges are measured in thousands, rather than hundreds of yards. A 198-grain spitzer boat-tail bullet was therefore adopted in the early 1920s. Though muzzle velocity was reduced, the better aerodynamics and heavier weight proved superior to the lighter bullet out beyond 400 or so yards. The boat-tail design helped even more out at extreme ranges after velocity had fallen below the speed of sound--about 1,100 fps. Though developed for machine gun use, the "sS" load (for schweres Spitzgeschoss or "heavy pointed bullet"), had become the standard load for the foot soldier's '98 by the time WWII was underway. From the standard 23.6-inch barrel of the Kar. 98, muzzle velocity for the heavier sS bullet was 2,475 fps.

Again, America quickly followed suit and in 1926 switched to a 172-grain BT bullet in the Springfield. At 2,540 fps it was again comparable to the 8x57 sS but, according to Barnes' Cartridge of the World (DBI Books), problems with that bullet in the Garand forced the re-adoption of the 150-grain loading during the war.

That pretty much brings us up to date on the 8x57, at least as far as the highlights go with regard to its long military history is concerned. As for its "sporting life" as a hunting cartridge, that too is rich and lengthy.

From its inception by Paul Mauser and its adoption by Germany in 1888, the 8x57J became the sporting cartridge in Europe. Unfortunately, German sportsmen proved just as quirky as those anywhere else and when the "S" loading was adopted by the military, many refused to accept it based on the erroneous belief that the J-bore was more accurate. As a result, sporting rifles in 8x57J continued to be made by Mauser, as well as virtually every sporting arms manufacturer and gunsmith in Germany and Austria. They went so far as to try to abolish the "S" bore after WWII (which probably outnumbered the "J" 10,000 to one!), and RWS actually stopped producing S-Type 8x57 ammunition. Again referring to Mauser Bolt Rifles, the Association of German Gunsmiths realized, in 1952, such attempts were futile and resigned themselves to the fact that after 49 years, the .323 S-bore was here to stay!

Here in the U.S. we've got few such problems. Oh, there's few '88 and '98 J-bores around but not many are being used. Those who have Commission '88 or '91s and want to press them into service can use the mildly-loaded Remington, Federal or Winchester factory loads which send a 170-grain bullet out at 2,360 fps with 2,100 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Zeroed 2 inches high at 100 yards puts it 4 inches low at 200 and 10 inches low at 250. That's plenty potent enough for eastern whitetail and black bear.

For the mere handful of '98 Mauser J-bores out there, Norma offers a load specifically for it: it's marked "8x57J (.318)" and, typical of Norma ammo, it's a hot performer. It sends a 196-grain bullet out at 2,525 fps and with nearly 2,800 foot pounds of energy. Norma claims a 20-yard zero will put its semi-pointed load 12 inches low at 300 yards so we're looking at an honest elk and moose rifle out to about 225 to 250 yards. Norma offers an identical load for the S-bore; it's marked "8mm Mauser (8x57JS)," the only difference being that the 196-grain bullet mikes .323 instead of .318.

It's really a shame but that for the existence of a few oddball guns around, the 8mm Mauser has suffered all these years. The fact is, all 8x57s based on the '98 action stamped 1905 or later are the .323 or 8x57S bore. And virtually all '98s made during the previous 5 years were recalled and properly converted at the original factories and stamped with the "S" marking on the receiver.

The 8x57 JS can only attain its true potential through handloading . . . but then that's been the case with several other cartridges--the .257 Roberts and 7x57 to name two. Assuming a good, sound '98 action, loading the 8x57 to the same 50-52,000 CUP levels as one would a .270 or .30-06 offers impressive performance.

Considering its moderate-sized case, the 8x57 does its best work with bullets in the 170- to 200-grain weight range. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of bullets in that range to choose from, and of them most are round-nose or semi-spitzer. Best among the lighter game bullets is Sierra's 175-grain spitzer with a ballistic coefficient of .477. Sierra data shows a load of 51 grains of IMR-4320 as giving 2,700 fps. A 200-yard zero puts it 8.5 inches low at 300 where it still has almost 1,800 foot pounds of energy left. With this load one could take on any non-dangerous game on this continent.

An even better load of my way of thinking is with the highly efficient 200-grain bullets of Speer or Nosler. Nosler shows three loads that provide 2,650 to 2,700 fps from a 26-inch test barrel; a muzzle velocity of 2,600 fps would be reasonable from the 23.6-inch military barrel. Nosler data shows a 200-yard zero would put this load just over 9 inches low at 300 yards where it would still have 1,870 foot pounds of remaining energy. This particular load virtually duplicates the .30-06 180-grain bullet exiting at 2,750 fps.

Just as our .30-40 Krag and .30-06 prompted the development of many other .30 caliber cartridges here, so too did the 8mm Mauser over in Europe. In addition to influencing the adoption of 8mm martial cartridges by a number of other countries, the 8x57 Mauser had a profound effect on sporting cartridge development as well. Cartridges of the World shows 18 8mm sporting cartridges ranging from the modest 8x48R Sauer (similar to our .32-40 WCF), to the big 8x68S, a true magnum cartridge, sans belt, but with an internal capacity greater than that of a .338 Winchester Magnum. Loaded by RWS, the 196-grain factory load clocks 3,050 fps and churns up 4,050 foot pounds of energy--enough for any soft-skinned beastie, including lion and the biggest bears. Hornady shows 8x58S loads in their current manual that produce 2,800 fps with their excellent 220-grain spire point Interlock bullet.

It would be unfair to judge a cartridge by its acceptance by other countries, but if that were the case, the .30-06 would win over the 8mm Mauser, hands down. The '06 is one of the most popular sporting rounds throughout Europe, yet the 8x57 has never made appreciable inroads among U.S. hunters. If any .323 ever had a chance here it was Remington's excellent 8mm Magnum introduced in 1977 but it was dropped from the line just this past year."

Warrior

I like the 06 and the mauser cartridges. I see no need for one to be exclusive of ther other. And as much as I am a fan of the 280 Rem, frankly, I just gave up on a 280 Rem Mauser project in favor of a 7X57. Why? Action alterations are a PITA and nessecary unless you like seating your bullets so deeply that it might as well be a 7X57!! This decision is one that I am quite content with. Nothng wrong with a good 7mm Mauser.

Beside the fact that mauser cases feed like a dream in Mauser actions with no alterations at all.

Ive got a Whelen on a M-98 and the bullets are such that no alterations were nessecary in reguards to length, (had to open up the width though).

Springfields are fantastic for building on the 06 case, but thats a whole different animal. Critters get no more dead with an 06 than with an 8X57, dead is dead and either are quite suitable for similar situations.

What Id really like to see brought back to life is the 284 Win with more than Norma 6.5 brass available.

Looking at the numbers the 8x57 isn't for me...I will just keep my 30-06

This is really the same old 30-06 vs 308 argument in a different dress. When it comes right down to it theres not enough difference to matter.

quote:

Looking at the numbers the 8x57 isn't for me...I will just keep my 30-06

Mauser fans of the 7x57 and 8x57 are looking beyond numbers, as that is not the be all and end all. The rifle itself counts for a lot.

Warrior

The 8x57mm is a "girlie" rifle.



One shot with a 200gr Nosler Accubond from a very old small ring action rifle at about 50 yards.
My wife thinks it works just fine!

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior: The rifle itself counts for a lot.

Warrior

Not to me.

Mr. Ted, PM me your location in Missouri, and sometime, I will run over with a couple Blasers and a Sauer in 8X57 and let you shoot them. The 8X57 works better in real life, than it does in the books.

quote:

Considering its moderate-sized case, the 8x57 does its best work with bullets in the 170- to 200-grain weight range. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of bullets in that range to choose from, and of them most are round-nose or semi-spitzer. Best among the lighter game bullets is Sierra's 175-grain spitzer with a ballistic coefficient of .477. Sierra data shows a load of 51 grains of IMR-4320 as giving 2,700 fps

I started w/ a Sportered GEW98 w/ a receiver sight and original barrel/ front sight. I used a load of 47.5gr IMR 4320 to achieve 2800fps w/ 175gr Sierra pro hunters. Cartridges of the world has 48.5gr in a .30-06 w/ a 180gr sierra to achieve 2700fps. I've loaded up to 49.5gr of IMR 4320 for my Swede large ring w/ a 24" barrel, close to 2800fps. No fleas on it in my book.

So while we are on the topic of what an 8x57 is capable of how about the Spanish M43 as an action? I know the FR8 was built on M43 actions and chambered for 7.62 NATO. It has also been discussed here or other places that 7.62 NATO is loaded to lower pressure than what the .308 Winchester is loaded.

So would you trust the M43 action to tweak all the 8x57 has to offer? How about using said action for a 9.3x62 build?

quote:

Originally posted by ron williams:
Mr. Ted, PM me your location in Missouri, and sometime, I will run over with a couple Blasers and a Sauer in 8X57 and let you shoot them. The 8X57 works better in real life, than it does in the books.

You will have to bring your own ammo....there isn't any of that stuff around here.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ron williams:
Mr. Ted, PM me your location in Missouri, and sometime, I will run over with a couple Blasers and a Sauer in 8X57 and let you shoot them. The 8X57 works better in real life, than it does in the books.

You will have to bring your own ammo....there isn't any of that stuff around here.

Not a problem, I got ammo. I am at Ava Missouri, and would be glad to come by and see you.

Let's wait till cooler weather for sure. I went to my shooting range (highline) to shoot some work up rounds over the crony

With just 8 shots my gun was smokin hot...so was I.

Poplar Bluff

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Let's wait till cooler weather for sure. I went to my shooting range (highline) to shoot some work up rounds over the crony

With just 8 shots my gun was smokin hot...so was I.

Poplar Bluff

This fall then for sure.

It is quite normal to make comparisons between various cartridges. Typically with medium bores bigger than .308 the .338 springs to mind as an alternative for the .323 (8x57). The latest being the .338 Federal in line with the short-cased cartridge trend. One criticism against the 8x57 is that there are not a lot of load choices for the 8x57. If you are a reloader this is no issue at all, but since it has been mentioned, I bet that in a few year's time there aren't going to be a lot of factory load choices for the 338 Federal as well, as the 338 Federal doesn't appear to be catching on anywhere, and I predict a smaller number of 338 Federal rifles will be out there than 8x57 rifles. Consider this possibility .... ten years from now there are likely to be relatively few 338 Federal rifles floating around whereas thousands 8x57 rifles will still be in use over the world. Which are the ammo makers most likely to load for in standard factory ammo form? So far the 8x57 has survived for 123 years, whilst the 338 Federal is still in its infancy.

With reloading, the main question remains always the availability of cases, but in both cartridges the cases can be fire-formed from other cases. For the reloader there are plenty of 8 mm bullets to choose from, including premium grade bullets such as Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, Rhino Solid Shank and Barnes-X bullets, and the same for .338 bullets. There's really not much to choose ballistically between the 8x57 and the .338 Federal, but the long-throated 8x57 can accept longer bullets and heavier bullets out to 220 grainers as well as the long 200 gr Barnes TSX bullet. Long bullets will erode powder capacity of the short-throated 338 Federal, and so is mostly loaded with 180 grainers.

The 338 Federal was a joint development by Federal and Sako, and so it is offered in the Sako Hunter Model 85, the Tika T-3 rifles, Ruger M77 and Kimber Model 84 as well, but I am not sure who else might be chambering for it.

Some stats:-

8x57 ------- 200-gr Speer SP (3.175") ----- 2,539 Fps
338 Fed --- 200-gr Hornady SP (2.820") -- 2,600 Fps

Some hotter loads are published for Federal Premium ammo, but it is seldom achieved. A Speer 200 grain Hot-Cor bullet backed by 43.0 grains of IMR 3031 powder will yield a muzzle velocity of 2465 fps from a 22" barrel, and works very well - at least it keeps conventional lead-core bullets within their threshold strength with the benefit of lower recoil.

However, the 8x57 does so with a lot less pressure, and loaded to the same pressure as the 338 Federal the 8x57 wins easily.

The 338 Federal is efficient, inherently accurate, fits in a short action and can be built on a light-weight rifle and is suitable for basically everything in the US, but that has nothing to do with it whether it will survive or not! The 325 WSM is one those short mags that the media is in love with and anything the 338 Federal will do the 325 WSM will do a little better. Sako's and Kimbers are great rifles, but pricey and so sales of the 338 Federal did not take the US by storm. Not to bash the 338 Federal, but if you look at commercial cartridges larger in diameter than .300 caliber in the US, then only a few have had any real staying power. The 8mm's are practically dead, the only .33 calibers that have been largely popular has been the 338 Win Mag. Where is the .358 Win today? The 375 H&H is there mostly for the hunters that want to come to Africa is it is a base line and minimum caliber for dangerous game, and beyond that bigger calibers drop off to real small numbers. The 30-06 Spr, 300 Win mag, 338 Win Mag and the 375 H&H are the ones that really sell.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
The 8x57mm is a "girlie" rifle.

I know, I see Billy Badasses with their whizbangers at the range all the time. They shoot about half a box and go runnin home to their mummys..

I think that remark was a bit "tongue in cheek" since the picture is of his wife.

quote:

Bring back the 8x57 mm Mauser

Why?.....It didn't do the Germans any good!