Somethign that I have often wondered about is jacketed vs Hard cast.

I've read many articles regarding hard cast bullets with big flat meplats, and how well they do on game.

They make a large wound channel and penetrate well, as the dont' expand too much.

My question is, wodul a jacketed bullet, of a simialr shape, not do the same thing?

If the bullet had a flat point, and was FMJ in construciton, woudln't that offer the same advantages of a hard cast?

Yes.but at much higher cost.....

Ha Ha..

Okay, i was wondering if that was the biggest issue!!


(Clearly there are other advantages to cast, such as tailoring bulletdiameters to irregular chambers/bores)

quote:

My question is, wodul a jacketed bullet, of a simialr shape, not do the same thing?

No, it would not, and here is the reason why: hard cast bullets are basically a monolithic solid, and they will punch completely through. A jacketed bullet is a pure lead core with a copper jacket around it. What TYPICALLY happens, although not always, is the bullet comes apart when it encounters stiff resistance. The copper jacket often "pukes the core" and the lead travels on, fragmenting and destroying a lot of meat. Since energy is a function of mass, the smaller lead core has less energy, and that energy is more easily given up inside the animal.

All in all, hard cast beats jacketed bullets for penetration, generally speaking. There may be exceptions, but they are few.

Pure lead core ?? Not necessarily. From my old Sierra book they used pure lead, 1 1/2% antimony, and 3% antimony.Jackets were all copper with 5% Zn. My favorite 44 mag bullet was Speer's 225 1/2 jacket SWCHP. The only one I recovered penetrated almost 30" expanding out to .50 caliber !! About as perfect performance as could be found !That was not a pure lead core.So design of a JHP can vary considerably so you can pick the performance you want .I no longer handgun hunt but if I did I think I would try Nosler Partition or Barnes all copper for my 44 mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

My question is, wodul a jacketed bullet, of a simialr shape, not do the same thing?

No, it would not, and here is the reason why: hard cast bullets are basically a monolithic solid, and they will punch completely through. A jacketed bullet is a pure lead core with a copper jacket around it. What TYPICALLY happens, although not always, is the bullet comes apart when it encounters stiff resistance. The copper jacket often "pukes the core" and the lead travels on, fragmenting and destroying a lot of meat. Since energy is a function of mass, the smaller lead core has less energy, and that energy is more easily given up inside the animal.

All in all, hard cast beats jacketed bullets for penetration, generally speaking. There may be exceptions, but they are few.

Your assumption in this case is inncorrect. You are assuming a poorly constructed full metal jacketed bullet.
Punch bullets are full metal jacketed bullrts and they outprnrtate even hiever hardcast byllets by a small margin.In the Linebaugh Seminar this weekend in Jackson,Miss, a 450 grain Punch bullet fired from a 500 Linsbaugh pentrated 51". A 525 grain wlfn fired from a 500 Linebaugh penetrated 50".Clearly the Full Metal Jacketed has a slight edge. A 525 grain wlfn hard cast fired from a 50 Alaskan revolver deformed because of the excess velocity and this deformation lessened its abillity to penetrate,this deformation would not have happened with a proprerly made (such as a punch bullet) FMJ Flat point...........

belt mountain bullets are not "jacketed" but a solid with a lead core for weight.

hard cast are all you need and 10x cheaper...

no doubt they rock but at what cost.



http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

Belt Mountain Punch bullets are not cast nor made in the conventional jacketed way, but rather turned on lathe. The basic bullet is a bronze/brass alloy with a lead core. They are offered in heavy weights and designed for situations demanding deep penetration in bone and muscle. They are definitely not cheap, running anywhere from $1.25 to $2.00 each, however, they are not plinking bullets. Once the sixgun is sighted in, a box will literally last a lifetime of hunting tough critters.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29792593_ITM

The assumption is even more incorrect in that bullets such as the Speer bullets with the jacket plated ontot the core have not been mentioned. I drove one from a .475 Linebaugh through 5.5 feet of elk. I beleive a cast bullet would have done marginally better.

The Speer GDSP from a .475 Linebaugh will deliver some fine penetration. I drove one through 5.5 feet of elk. A hard cast would have done marginally better.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
belt mountain bullets are not "jacketed" but a solid with a lead core for weight.

hard cast are all you need and 10x cheaper...

no doubt they rock but at what cost.



http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

Belt Mountain Punch bullets are not cast nor made in the conventional jacketed way, but rather turned on lathe. The basic bullet is a bronze/brass alloy with a lead core. They are offered in heavy weights and designed for situations demanding deep penetration in bone and muscle. They are definitely not cheap, running anywhere from $1.25 to $2.00 each, however, they are not plinking bullets. Once the sixgun is sighted in, a box will literally last a lifetime of hunting tough critters.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29792593_ITM

NOT Jacketed, Aren't they called FMJ ( Full Metal Jacket) the same as a rifle solid is called FMJ?..............

Also, the main advantage I have found is with hard cast, and by that I mean anywhere from 22-35 BHN, you can push the same weight bullet at 200-300fps faster with the same or less pressure as jacketed.

Most of my hard cast I heat treat to 30-35 BHN. I can tell a lot of difference in recoil from my 300gr. LFN cast bullets in comparison to top loaded 260 gr. jacketed. They don't seem to have as much recoil.

Through a chrono. I measure 1850+FPS with 300gr. cast bullets out of my 14" contender barrel.

On a related note, performance issues aside many states prohibit the use of FMJ bullets on game. A hard cast LBT won't expand any more than a solid but to Fish & Game they look like lead bullets...

JWP, do you know anyone that shoots FMJs at game? Or silhouette bullets at game? Look at the original post. "jacketed bullet of similar shape".... Now go get a standard Remington SJHP, Sierra handgun bullet, Hornady handgun bullet or similar, carve on the nose with your pocket knife (or thumbnail) and tell me again.

Any specialty handgun bullet will probably perform as well as hard cast, but the standard handgun bullets out there are swaged, with lead cores. Look at them when you open the box. The noses are dented, for crying out loud. How hard are the cores???

They are not designed as "hunting" bullets, and we all know that. If you want to disagree, that is fine, but I suspect you knew what I was talking about. There are very few absolutes besides absolute zero.

"All in all, hard cast beats jacketed bullets for penetration, generally speaking. There may be exceptions, but they are few."

Finally, you will note my statement above as being less than absolute...

I'm wondering if someting liek this:



Would do the same job as a hard cast bullet, of the same weight, similar shape.

(Of course the cast bullet will have grooves in it, so the shape is not exact, but close enough)

Finally, has anyone actually tested them, in some media such as paper or gelatin, in a side by side performance test?

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
JWP, do you know anyone that shoots FMJs at game? Or silhouette bullets at game? Look at the original post. "jacketed bullet of similar shape".... Now go get a standard Remington SJHP, Sierra handgun bullet, Hornady handgun bullet or similar, carve on the nose with your pocket knife (or thumbnail) and tell me again.

Any specialty handgun bullet will probably perform as well as hard cast, but the standard handgun bullets out there are swaged, with lead cores. Look at them when you open the box. The noses are dented, for crying out loud. How hard are the cores???

They are not designed as "hunting" bullets, and we all know that. If you want to disagree, that is fine, but I suspect you knew what I was talking about. There are very few absolutes besides absolute zero.

"All in all, hard cast beats jacketed bullets for penetration, generally speaking. There may be exceptions, but they are few."

Finally, you will note my statement above as being less than absolute...

First of this the original post with the original question by Gatehouse;

[Quote] by Gatehouse
Somethign that I have often wondered about is jacketed vs Hard cast.

I've read many articles regarding hard cast bullets with big flat meplats, and how well they do on game.

They make a large wound channel and penetrate well, as the dont' expand too much.

My question is, wodul a jacketed bullet, of a simialr shape, not do the same thing?

If the bullet had a flat point, and was FMJ in construciton, woudln't that offer the same advantages of a hard cast?
[Quote]

Notice that he asked about Full Metal Jacketed bullets of compairable shape to hard cast.
Secound yes people do hunt with Punch Bullets,since that is what they are made for.
Third Corbon Jacketed soft point has a hardened core and does very little deformation when fired into wet paper.
I answered his question correctly.......

So: would Corbon be a specialty handgun bullet or not?

We both know the answer.

And FMJs are not configured to the comparable shape of a hard cast SWC, and you know that, too.

I am done... By your inference, YOU answered his question correctly and I did not. Okay. I defer to the guy with the big ego.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
So: would Corbon be a specialty handgun bullet or not?

We both know the answer.

And FMJs are not configured to the comparable shape of a hard cast SWC, and you know that, too.

I am done... By your inference, YOU answered his question correctly and I did not. Okay. I defer to the guy with the big ego.

It has nothing to do with ego it has to do with reading the question and the question asked about a FMJ bullet shaped the same as a Hard Cast.....

Well, I for one have shot FMJ bullets at game; with spectacular results I might add.

Based on my experience, I see no reason why a FMJ constructed on the same profile/shape, what have you as a similarly designed hard cast bullet would not function in a very similar manner. Flat nose bullets would be less prone to turn than their roundnose cousins. Oh the things left to test.

Now to answer regarding specialty bullets. When you get down to brass tacks, all bullets are "specialty" bullets. We as shooters choose our projectiles as closely as possible for the desired results or necessary performance. I would not dream of shooting an elephant with a hollow point bullet. Nor am I going to shoot varmints with fmjs or hard cast if overpenetration is a concern; I'm going as frangible as possible.

Going back to the original question, it seems to me this is a "what if" question and not really a discussion of what is currently available.

And just in case it comes up again, I have six children; I don't need an ego any more.

I agree, match the bullet to the purpose! There are fantastic jacketed bullets made today along with those that open too fast for large game.
The bottom line is cost. I would not like to shoot thousands of $1 to $2 bullets no matter how good they are. Even sighting in and working loads would hurt but for the use they are made for, they would be supreme.
As for most FMJ's for hunting, the meplats on most are a little too small. If matched size for size though, they would work fine.

Another issue to be factored in to the Jacketed/Cast situation.

Lead bullets generate less friction in the barrel. In my experiance; all else being equal, lead bullets shoot "harder" than jacketed by 50 to 125 fps, in conventional handguns.

Thats true, lead goes faster with the same powder charge and in most cases, even more powder can be used. However a little more speed doesn't increase killing power much unless you are borderline to start with. It will extend the range to kill and flatten trajectory however.
I have killed many deer out past 100 yd's with a round ball from my .45 flinters. A heavy .44 will hit much harder then they do.
I also load for the best accuracy in my revolvers, never the fastest so I am usually a little behind what most guys shoot. I haven't found an animal that will stop my boolits so I never worry about 50 or 100 fps.
I think of it the same as those archery guys shooting light arrows at 300 fps at game. They stop right now on bone and even a chest hit stops them in 6" or 7". If you watch the forums, you will see they are going lighter and lighter to get more speed. The real archery hunter uses much heavier and slower arrows that punch through anything.
Thank goodness, most handgun hunters know better then to use the wrong boolits. I won't get into the discussion comparing a poorly constructed 180 gr bullet to the heavy WFN, all of you know that!

if the FMJ bullets were the SAME shape I'd expect similar performance.

Only problem I have seen is that the FMJ bullets tend to be more rounded on all the edges. This rounding of the edges does not allow them the SAME shape and thus probably not similar performance. WITH that said, IT IS MY OPINION on this, as I have no data or personal experience.

It'd be interesting if there was a FMJ LBT design with sharp corners on it... Still don't think it pass for a hunting round though...

They should. All of my truncated cone boolits are cast hard and do not expand but they have large meplats and don't have to. Boolit weight is important for maximum penetration. Much more important then speed. When going to smaller calibers or smaller meplats, then expansion is needed. Thats were it gets tricky and is one reason calibers like the .357 and under are not good hunting handguns. Some bullets will just expand on contact and not get in far enough while others just poke a small hole. It is far easier to use a big diameter, heavy boolit with a large meplat.

quote:

Originally posted by Blammer:
if the FMJ bullets were the SAME shape I'd expect similar performance.

Only problem I have seen is that the FMJ bullets tend to be more rounded on all the edges. This rounding of the edges does not allow them the SAME shape and thus probably not similar performance. WITH that said, IT IS MY OPINION on this, as I have no data or personal experience.
It'd be interesting if there was a FMJ LBT design with sharp corners on it... Still don't think it pass for a hunting round though...

There is it's called a PUNCH BULLET....

I load most of the ammo carried by our canoe guides on the Zambezi and have done alot of load development for handguns. When we were trying to get handgun hunting re-legalised in Zimbabwe I shot an elephant and a buff with my .41 mag as a demonstration for the Director of Parks.

In Brief- Hard cast doesn't make the grade. I have tried many different alloys, quenching them in water as they drop out of the mold , etc. The best results were approximately lyman No2 Alloy quenched in oil which bought the BHN up to 30 without them getting brittle. Standard lynotype or 4/11/85 is way too brittle.

We then got Barnes to make us up some flat nosed super solids in .429 and .357 (way back in 1989!) They were OK, better than any lead bullet, but too long. Couldn't stuff enough powder behind them to get enough velocity. Even though Barnes had made the bullets with two crimping grooves for us so that we could load the bullets out in S&W revolvers and to correct length in Taurus or Rugers we still couldn't get enough velocity. Best I could do with the bullets seated out so they just fitted in a S&W was a 240grn at 1150fps (4") In the revolvers where we had to seat the bullets down to corect oal we were getting 1050 out of the 5½" barrels.

These days I simply get Ken Stuart to make up .429 and .357 steel jacketed bullets for us. He makes them with a nice big meplat and 2mm steel on the front of the jacket thining down towards the back. They are slightly longer than conventional 265grn Jacketed soft points that you buy in the USA- About the same as a 280grn, But ken also puts two crimping grooves on so if your cylender is long enough you can seat the bullets out a bit.

Out of my 5" S&W I get a 265grn to 1400fps and out of the 4" 329 I get 1290fps. (talk about Brutal to fire!)

What did I shoot the ele with? A tungstan core shaped like a round nosed cotton reel that fitted into my 220grn Lyman mold. I then poured lead into the mold to make up the diamiter and engauge the rifling. Worked out as between 240 and 250grns per bullet and took about 2hrs to make each one. Good job I was a civil servant and cost effectiveness was not a consideration

You should try the Belt Mountain Punch Bullets They are awsome....... A good Hard Cast certainly will have problems with the amount of bone in an Elephants head that must be penetrated.The Hardcast will work well on plains game....Otto Candice made Steel tipped Hard Cast bullets for use on Elephants for his 500 Linebaugh 450 grains at 1250 FPS.They worked well for him.........

".357 and under are not good hunting handguns"


bfrshooter-you paint a broad picture with that statement. I think 357 is a good caliber for hunting deer. what about 7-30 waters handguns?

Penetration? Speed?

With my 357 mag there is enough to punch through 8 1 gallon jugs of water back to back at 25 yds and keep going. That's a 210 gr FP .357 bullet.

The reason I said the .357 is borderline is most guys pick the wrong bullets, not that the caliber is no good. It is a hard gun to know what bullet will work best and it sounds like you know what to use.
The 7-30, 7R, 7BR all will do the job with the RIGHT bullet. Use a bullet made for elk and moose with a 7mm mag in them and you will never get the deer. (unless you head the brain or spine.)
Would you use a 110 gr bullet out of a .300 Weatherby on a deer? Would a 220 gr FMP solid be better? Or is there a right bullet?
Going into the store and plunking down money for a box of .357 ammo does not mean you can recover every deer shot with it. You just have to know more when using the gun.

good point!

I will third the idea of getting a little more velocity at equal pressure with hard cast. On the terminal performance, I wouldn't think it matters if it is a fmj or not. I think I would go for a quality Hard Cast or a JFP over a FMJ though.

As for seperation of jacket, I used to shoot a 450 marlin with 350 gr JFP, the jacket didn't seperate, the bullet would expand slightly (on the rare occasion it didn't punch through.

John

Even the bullets designed for the greater pressures will let loose now and again. I had a jacket/core seperation on my Gemsbok with a FA brand 260 JSP.

Winchester makes a 300 gr JFP I am going to try out, anyone use these before?

John

The Winnchester 300 grain bullet I believe is the same bullet that Freedom Arms used when they were loading the amunition

Thats what I was thinking, and they worked pretty well.

Thanks,
John

What is your huntingexperience with .44 Mag./255 gr/1200 fps hardcast - made from wheelweights (not hardened at all)

Ganyana

I know they will be hard for you to get, but you should try some of Garretts 310 cast 44 Mag loads.

His bullets are harder, [but not brittle], than anybody elses bullets I have shot.

I do know from a 44 Mag Mountain Gun they will penetrate to the brain on a cow elephant, side brain.

No doubt for brain shots on the big stuff the unch bullet is most likely the way to go.

Also in the USA, a handgun must have a certain percentage of lead, to be legal.

"Solid" handgun bullets with no lead are considered Armour Penetrating And thus illegal.

Well i envy those who do ill never get a chance to shoot an elephant with a handgun and id doubt many here will. Biggest animal ive shot is buffalo and the biggest buffalo i shot was 2000 lbs and hard cast bullets work just fine on them. They also work just as well on 90 lb deer. Maybe in the case of deer sized game a jacketed bullet will work just as well but no better. An animal hit properly with a good cast bullet is dead and dead is dead. I about exclusivley use cast bullets. WHY? because i shoot A LOT and cant afford jacketed bullets. Problem is if your buying bullets is since the craze with cast bullets has begun cast bulets are just as expensive as jacketed and in some cases more expensive. Ive penetration tested just about every handgun bullet made and a good percentage of cast bullet designs. Ive also tested alot of bullets on game. Even if i could afford jacketed my gun would be loaded with cast. We did some testing for kelly shlepp when he was firt making the punch bullets and believe me they work. My wife killed a water buffalo that weighted 1600 lbs last year with my 50 beowulf using a punch bullet and they spit through it like butter. If i even did get the chance to go to africa and hunt buffalo or elephant with a handgun it would be loaded with punch bullets. That would surely be an instance where what they cost wouldnt mean a pinch of ###. Any of you guys living in africa that need me to come cull some elephants dont hesitate to ask. Im a nice enough guy that id do you that favor.

the corbon penetrators are exactly the type bullet the gentelemn speaks of, a hardcast with a jacket. i've used them a bunch and NEVER had a failure, even shot a brick wall a few times and the jacket didn't seperate from the lead core. they don't have quite the nose profile for optimal penetration as the lbt style hardcasts but have done very well in any penetration test i've ever seen. the 320 grain load is what lynn thompson used on elephant, and i think the buff and rhino as well from a 454 casull, i've had by far more hardcast break apart on elk and buffalo than i have have failures with jacketed bullets. corbon penetrators are a good choice, never seen a failure.


btw, ganyana, why would anyone try to prove anything to a game dept about handgun hunting elephant and buff in africa with a .41 mag? just curious.

"made from wheelweights (not hardened at all)"

Why am I asking?

I will travel to Africa in April and will try HC made of pure wheelweights.

I have been in Africa a lot of times and have hunted with calibers in 375 JDJ/30-30/357/44/454, and tried different bullets in those calibers (Cape Buffalo as the biggest game).

Why will I use something I don`t know works well?

Because of that

Every time I`m in Africa - I get a chance to shoot a lot of animals with different bullets, which let me know what bullets I DON`T shall use anymore .

But if I receive information from you - that I`m on my way to the blueberry forest ....... - I will think twice about my experiment.