Whitworth and I went out this morning and he went into the ladder stand. I sat on the ground near the deer movement area. It was cold with frost on the ground. I heard him shoot about 8:30. Shortly after a number of does came past me at 40 yd's. I picked a nice one but she stopped behind some trees. When she walked out I shot her with my 45-70 BFR, WFN boolit. Double lung shot but she went quite a ways. I figure 120 yd's. I found a lot of blood after about 40 yd's. Every deer I have shot with this gun has gone farther then one shot with a .44, .475 or .45. I think it is just too fast and goes through the deer so fast it doesn't disrupt enough internals.
Marko's didn't make 20 yd's with the .475. He had a difficult shot on the wrong side at 30 yd's. But made a perfect quartering shot.
My deer showed much less internal damage then his. His was soup inside.

You guys definitely had a great morning. Congrats!

Now all the hard work begins...

Congrats to the two of you.

congrats definitly a good morning

Dan

Thank you.
I wish I could slow down the 45-70 but accuracy just goes away. Strange how a heavy WFN boolit does not work as good as soon as the velocity goes over 1600 fps. I just don't know how a .454 works with cast. Seems as if a jacketed bullet is better when velocity is high.
I have shot a lot of deer with the 45-70 and all have not started bleeding right away or dropped quick like when I shoot the slower guns.
Just another thorn in the side for those that think energy dump from high velocity is better.
It seems the smaller the caliber or the faster a large caliber is, the more expansion is needed.
I always thought the higher velocity would be better but it has not proven to be true in the field. Deer show little reaction to being hit and run a long way.
The .45 Colt with a slow heavy boolit kills faster.
The 45-70 built it's reputation on big, heavy, slow boolits. Zip one through a deer too fast and you h
ave a tracking job

A tracking job indeed -- just like this morning's!

I just downloaded my photos and will post them in a little while. It was a very good morning!

Okay, I'm back -- exhausted, but back........

As bfrshooter mentioned, I shot my buck at about 30 yards offhand from a ladder stand. He was quartering away from me and the bullet entered behind the rib cage, made mush out of his vitals, and exited the throat. He was visibly shaken when the bullet struck and he lurched to his left, staggered and then crashed to the ground, kicked once and then gave up the ghost.......

Shortly afterwards, I heard bfrshooter's shot......

And the rest is as they say, history.......

You guys certainly aren't the most handsome hunters that I have ever seen, but congratulations on some fine shooting!

If you're looking for a date, you've come to the wrong site!

Way to go!!!

BFRS... have you thought of using the soft remmie 405's to do more damage?

It's a conundrum. You slow them down and thy do more damage, but his accuracy goes in the tank. Last year the same thing happened to him and he switched to a hollow-point and it worked better. But I'll let him tell the story!

Yes, the 300 gr Hornady brought the deer down faster then the WFN. I think too much velocity with a cast boolit is not good. Velocity and muzzle energy does not mean anything to the animal.
The 45-70 is a lesson in itself. If the boolit goes through too fast, damage is minimal.
Now the load might be better for a larger animal but I don't know.
I have the weight but need some expansion to create a larger primary wound channel.
The difference between the 45-70 and the .44 is great. The .44 is BETTER. The .45 Colt is BETTER. The .475 is BETTER.

"The difference between the 45-70 and the .44 is great. The .44 is BETTER. The .45 Colt is BETTER. The .475 is BETTER."

Hmm?

I have shot a lot of animals with my revolvers in 44 and 45.
I also have shot some animals with my Marlin 45-70, and I suggest that I get higher velocity out of my rifle than a BFR.

I can`t remember that the animals shot with my Marlin - have run further (max. 60 yds) than the animals I have shot with "slow" 44 and 45`s.
But I have not shot so many with the 45-70 as I have done with my revolvers.
Maybe that is the reason concerning my different experience.

I am going to have to disagree with you BFRshooter. My 45-70 Lever action Marlin shooting 405 gr. hard cast bullets going over 1700 fps has kill a bunch of deer hogs and black bear. The furthest I had to track any of them shot was about 30 yards, but most a lot less.

When I shot my Black bear in 2006 in Canada, he went 15 yards for where he was shot, George shot his black bear with the same load and, his bear did not make it 5 feet. Both the heart and lungs were blown up in both bear.

Just a question here though.
How many more time are you going to mention energy dump, or velocity and muzzle energy does not mean anything to the animal?
I don't see anyone but you bringing it up??????

I see that this is taking a turn in the wrong direction. With all due respect, bfrshooter's statement is his experience, his observation, and frankly, this is his thread. He is injecting his opinion into this as is his right. Now, that said, this is the second season in a row that I have observed his .45-70 perform in the same manner. Nearly an identical shot as my .475, and nearly the same weight bullet, and 300 fps faster. The bullets zip through like hot knife through butter, without messing up the innards like the .475. So, based on a much higher velocity, and a consequently higher muzzle energy, it is safe to make the assertion that ME means very little in and of itself. Would the results have been different if the bullet was travelling even faster, say 2,000 fps? It's doubtful. Would the same combo work better on game that is thicker skinned? Probably. Again, in my opinion, nose profile is everything and this bullet just wants to penetrate to the end of the earth....... No reason to get hot and bothered over this......

That is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.....

You Guys had a wonderful morning! Congratulations ... very well done!!!

Congrats on the deer guys.

Thanks Mike and Hitman! It was a bloody cold morning, but it turned out great!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I see that this is taking a turn in the wrong direction. With all due respect, bfrshooter's statement is his experience, his observation, and frankly, this is his thread. He is injecting his opinion into this as is his right. Now, that said, this is the second season in a row that I have observed his .45-70 perform in the same manner. Nearly an identical shot as my .475, and nearly the same weight bullet, and 300 fps faster. The bullets zip through like hot knife through butter, without messing up the innards like the .475. So, based on a much higher velocity, and a consequently higher muzzle energy, it is safe to make the assertion that ME means very little in and of itself. Would the results have been different if the bullet was travelling even faster, say 2,000 fps? It's doubtful. Would the same combo work better on game that is thicker skinned? Probably. Again, in my opinion, nose profile is everything and this bullet just wants to penetrate to the end of the earth....... No reason to get hot and bothered over this......

That is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.....

Thank you Whitworth for answer for bfrshooter, but my question was to him seeing's how this is his thread. Also I am not getting hot one bit, just asking a legitimate question.

I did not know I could not reply to a post of his.

Why do you get confrontational so quickly?

That is just your perception. Just like you told me not to get hot and bothered over this, you just assumed I was. But I was not in the least.
You are the one answering a question that was not even asked of you, my question was for bfrshooter. So lets not make this more than it is.

But I wall say this once again, great job both of you. That was a great buck taken.

Hang on a second. I don't think you are aware of the way your posts sometimes come across. I am not interested in starting a pissing contest here and I won't, but when you say things like: "I did not know I could not reply to a post of his." it sounds more than a little defensive and that is not just my perception. But okay, just an observation.

Thanks again.

Will you two calm down. Whitworth, you know Redhawk was just sticking a fork into BFR and I know BFR doesn't need you getting all huffed up for something he can handle himself. Play nice and do what I'm doing. I'm not touching it.

Nice deer and nice shooting for both of you. Congrats.

Whitworth is correct as he has observed my hits, the internal damage and the distance the deer run. I even went to a larger meplat this season and get the same results.
It appears I need softer boolits as the velocity increases.
I have shot way too many deer with the gun now with the same results. I used a Hornady last year for one deer and it did much better.
What I meant by energy dump is that there is less useful energy when the boolit goes through too fast so high velocity is working against you instead of helping.
When a boolit stays in an animal it is not good. When it goes through but disrupts innards it is good and when it zips through too fast it is bad again.
Instead of starting another bad scene here, we should be discussing what the balance point is. I understand that a larger or tougher animal or a longer penetration distance in an animal might take advantage of more velocity.
From what we have seen, a double lung hit with a .44 does a LOT more internal damage then the faster 45-70, using the same hardness and same shape boolits.
Instead of starting an argument, why can't we figure this out and discuss why too much velocity can fail?
We would all be better served working out the perfect BHN of a faster booit so it does more work. Lacking that, I will be using jacketed bullets for hunting with the gun from now on.
What this has been teaching me from actual field experience is if you shoot the same boolit from a .45 Colt and a .454, the Colt can kill faster.
Velocity by itself does not aid killing power. You need to make the boolit do the work better.
The .454 and 45-70 with hard boolits are both better served at 150 to 200 yd's where the velocity is down.

bfrshooter, thanks for that explanation, and I agree with you.

Bullet construction does play a big part in how much damage can be done. It is using the right combination that is key to all of this.

If there was a quick answer to all of this, we would not all be discussing this as much as we do...

quote:

If there was a quick answer to all of this, we would not all be discussing this as much as we do...

And that my friends is the truth!

I have always thought the hard WFN style would be good at any velocity. I am drastically modifying my position after seeing for myself the lack of damage. Why the large meplat quits working and is failing to disrupt tissue is baffling me.
I will never give up my belief that two holes are the best but does the wound channel depend on the time duration the boolit is in the animal with this BHN hardness of about 22?
I am going to change boolit hardness for next season or cast some with pure lead noses. I don't know about a hollow point yet because I don't want boolit breakup although a softer alloy might be OK.
This revolver has been a learning curve for me because I figured just going to a larger meplat would work. I suppose it would have had I hit bone first. Then I would continue to suggest hard cast but I would be wrong, at least for deer.
So bear with me as I change my notions about expansion. It seems the faster boolits need to have expansion to slow them in the animal yet still punch all the way through.
There is nothing at all wrong with the 45-70 or .454, .460, etc, but experience is showing that using the same boolit at 1100 to 1300 fps, then making it faster does not work so good.
But as I said before, I don't know about larger and tougher animals. I need to keep this experiment just for deer. There is just no resistance to the boolit.
I have the idea that the faster boolit is forcing tissue out and away from the nose instead of piling it up and destroying it.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Will you two calm down. Whitworth, you know Redhawk was just sticking a fork into BFR and I know BFR doesn't need you getting all huffed up for something he can handle himself. Play nice and do what I'm doing. I'm not touching it.

Nice deer and nice shooting for both of you. Congrats.

George, I am playing nice. Do you not read the calm in my posts?

bfr,

What alloy are you casting your bullets from? Are you heat treating, water dropping, or air cooling? Is your accuracy suffering from bullet weight and barrel twist, or do you think the powders you are using are the culprit?

I do remember that many years ago, Ross Seyfried was casting a soft nose bullet. I can't remember the exact technique, and I think he was having some similar experiences as you.

Remember these rounds were designed for buffalo. I think you have too much of a good thing as your experience is showing.

bfrshooter, my buddy and I were shooting our Shiloh Sharps 45-70 with black powder loads. We were using 550 gr. pure lead bullets with a paper patch. The bullets were going between 1050 and 1100 fps with 70 gr. of Goax.
Even with the pure lead bullets we were getting full penetration (pass through) on deer. But with the pure lead, the expansion of the bullet made for some nasty exit wounds. We found blood trailing a breeze, as Stevie Wonder could of tracked all the deer we shot with them bullets.

So what we found was a great combination of heavy bullet weight, slower velocity and bullet design worked great on deer.

I am thinking of trying the paper patch pure lead bullets in my BFR 45-70, but with smokeless powder, maybe some Trail Boss powder. I have some load data for a 405 gr. bullet with Trail Boss at 1007 fps.
So I will have to play with it and see if I can get the 550 gr. bullets up to 1000 fps in the BFR. I may have to order some 500 gr. pure lead paper patched bullet to get the 1000 fps. I order them from Montana Bullet Works already patched. I have patch my own but it is just to time consuming.

I will also have to use a wad under the bullet to keep the powder from burning the paper patch and melting the soft lead base. Trail Boss being such a fluffy powder will allow for the case to be filled in order to get the proper charge that the wad will sit right under the bullet.

But I still think the 45-70 with fast bullets work well also. A lot of animals have fallen to the 45-70 with bullets going over 1800 and 1900 fps with hard cast bullets. From my experience.

That is the fun of all this, the work involved in making a great combination for game.

redhawk,

Trail Boss is the direction I was headed if this accuracy problem isn't twist related. I still think it's too much of a good thing on these deer and the pure lead, or an alloy that is mostly lead with just a bit of wheel weights may just work like a charm.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
redhawk,

Trail Boss is the direction I was headed if this accuracy problem isn't twist related. I still think it's too much of a good thing on these deer and the pure lead, or an alloy that is mostly lead with just a bit of wheel weights may just work like a charm.

That's what I think as well. We water drop these bullets and they are usually pure wheel weights...... They just zip on through! That load would be hell on something big and offering more resistence than a deer. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
redhawk,

Trail Boss is the direction I was headed if this accuracy problem isn't twist related. I still think it's too much of a good thing on these deer and the pure lead, or an alloy that is mostly lead with just a bit of wheel weights may just work like a charm.

I agree about the bullet make up.

Trail Boss is new to me, I just bought some yesterday. If I do find a good load using it for my BFR 45-70, I will stick with it. I do have a great load using SR4759 in my BFR.

There is data here for the Trail Boss powder on line.
Handgun data.
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss-feb2005.php

Rifle Data.
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

quote:

What alloy are you casting your bullets from? Are you heat treating, water dropping, or air cooling? Is your accuracy suffering from bullet weight and barrel twist, or do you think the powders you are using are the culprit?

I do remember that many years ago, Ross Seyfried was casting a soft nose bullet. I can't remember the exact technique, and I think he was having some similar experiences as you.

Remember these rounds were designed for buffalo. I think you have too much of a good thing as your experience is showing.

Yes, they are too hard being water dropped at 22 BHN. A softer alloy and air cooled will solve the problem. This alloy works like a charm in the .44, .45 and .475 but not at the velocity of the 45-70.
Accuracy in my BFR is only dependent on velocity. It will shoot about anything but I have been wrong with the hard boolit thing, thinking a large meplat would take care of the job.
More work to be done before next season on the alloy. Not enough time to use the gun this year again.

Unless you like tracking!!

Marko, are you coming to cut deer?

Yeah, you going to be there when I get there?

Comgrats to you both on your successful hunt. Two fine deer taken the hard way, very nice indeed.

I've never used a 45/70 in a pistol, the thought kind of scares me, but I've used the 300 gr hollow point in a Marlin with great results. I would think it might do okay in your revolver as well. I had to be careful not to drive it too fast in the rifle though as too much velocity would limit pentatration. Used a 400gr bullet approaching 2000 fps. in the same rifle on a brown bear with very good results as well.