Following are photos of a .257 Wby Mag that had a catastrophic failure apparently as a result of firing a round that had a double charge of Blue Dot.





For quite some time I have been shooting reduced recoil loads that I have loaded using Blue Dot powder in my .30-30, .243, and .257 Wby Mag. I have never had a problem and have developed some very good loads using Blue Dot.

I had been working up some new reduced loads for my .257 using the 117 grain Hornady BTSP. At one point in my reloading process my wife had walked into the room and had asked me several questions. After finishing our conversation, I completed loading the set of variously charged cartridges. It was getting late in the afternoon and I wanted to go out and try them, so I hurried and got my ammo and gun and went to shoot.

I was shooting the lowest charged cartridges first and was working my way up, watching for pressure signs. The ammo was shooting really well when it happened. I pulled the trigger and for a few seconds I didn't know what had happened. I vaguely remember seeing the scope coming back at me and I knew something wasn't right. I looked down and saw that my gun was demolished. I realized I had had a catastrophic failure and went to check myself in the mirror for injuries. I was bleeding several places on my face and around my eyes.

I hurriedly picked up the pieces of the gun. The barrel was laying out in front of my shooting bench about 7 feet and it was intact. I went home an cleaned my wounds. I am so very fortunate--there were no serious injuries. I could easily have lost an eye, or even have been killed, but only minor cuts and bruising occurred!

I sent the gun into Weatherby to make sure the rifle wasn't at fault. It wasn't. They said it was the result of firing an extremely high pressure round in the firearm. Although I have never double charged a load before, apparently I did this time, and it was a double charge of Blue Dot.

I am sharing this incident as a warning of just how dangerous it is to use Blue Dot or other fast burning pistol powders for reduced loads in rifle ammunition. I am blaming no one but myself and I'm not saying its going to happen to everyone who uses Blue Dot for reduced charge loads. I know that thousands of rounds of Blue Dot charged rifle ammo has been successfully fired. I believe this event occurred because of negligence on my part. I believe that I allowed myself to become distracted while reloading this batch of ammo.

If you continue to load rifle ammunition with Blue Dot, PLEASE BE CAREFUL! Do everything you can to keep from double charging a load and do everything you can to check to make sure you haven't double charged any cases.

I am blaming no one except myself for this mishap. I am so lucky/blessed that I did not suffer a serious injury. You might not be so lucky.

Keep reading my posts here and at other sites about the stupidity of using reduced loads or fast powders in guns that were designed otherwise. Why did you ever contemplate using other then a case full of slow powder? If you wanted a slow caliber, why not buy a slow caliber?
I feel real sorry for you about the loss of a fine rifle and hope you suffered no injuries.
However I keep seeing the same thing over and over. A guy buys a .44, .475 or .500 and the first question posted is "What light load can I make?" What in the hell was the gun bought for in the first place? If a toy was wanted why didn't they buy a .38? Or a 30-30 or an SKS?

Wow - Glad you are ok. Thanks for sharing that misadventure.

I use Seafire's BD reduced loads for the .243 and 7mm mag. and even though I have 2 Dillon progressive presses I only use my single stage Rock Chucker for these loads. I measure the powder, drop it into the case and immediately place and seat a bullet.

Additionally, I divorced my wife a while ago to avoid any such distractions. Seems to be working so far.

Is Blue Dot to be blamed if it was a double charge? Sounds to me like it was attention to detail during loading. No flames intended but identify root cause which seems if double charged, any powder would have done the same. Sorry to hear of your event and really glad you were not seriously hurt.

Red C; both eyes and all your fingers, wow! I think you should run out and buy a lotto ticket, you are one lucky dude.

Learn to charge cases by the batch.
Then examine all the charge levels with a flashlight for a uniform fill level.
Only then do you seat the bullets.

I said it was my fault and that it was due to my negligence. I am blaming me, my negligence, my stupidity and no one else. My intent was for others, especially new reloaders, to learn from my mistake.

The problem with Blue Dot is that it is easy to double charge a case and it won't even be noticed. Most, if not all, powders listed for use in a particular caliber will overflow the case if you try to place two charges in the case, i.e., two charges won't fit in the case.

You're welcome to go ahead and kick me in the butt as mine is already numb from me kicking myself in the butt.

From the pictures it looks strange to me that the reciever "let go" aparently around the barrel threads, but the barrel looks undamaged.

The face of the bolt does not look like it took over pressure.

It looks, from the pictures like the reciever just split.

RedC, glad you are OK. Unlike SR I always load my rifle and pistol rounds 1 at a time ie. I charge then seat the bullet. I do not shoot reduced loads. Again, glad you are OK. Looks like the Weatherby helped you out! I would send the scope back though!!!!
Peter.

Heaven forbid any of you guys load 38 or 44 Specials.

Please send your revolvers to me ASAP if you are prone (or even think it could happen)to this error!

Red, it's refreshing to see an honest man who owns up to his mistakes.

quote:

Red, it's refreshing to see an honest man who owns up to his mistakes.

I agree! I know it was his mistake and he admits it. No problem from me.
However my point is that If I buy a .475, I want a .475 and will not turn it into a .480. Neither would I turn a .44 mag into a special or a .300 Weatherby into a 30-30 and I sure would not try to turn a 30-30 into a .300.
I guess I can't get it through my pig head why anyone wants to turn a fine high power rifle into a .22!!!!!!!!!!!
Not even thinking about an accidental double charge, my question always will be "What is the point?"
Another question arises. Was it REALLY a double charge or was it powder position? Was the bullet blown out by the primer to become a bore obstruction before out of place powder ignited? This is something that never will be answered.
Did a previous shot fail to exit the bore?
Before I tried that trick with a .257, I would find a 25-20 to play with.
I buy a gun for what it is, not what I can turn it into.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
From the pictures it looks strange to me that the reciever "let go" aparently around the barrel threads, but the barrel looks undamaged.

The face of the bolt does not look like it took over pressure.

It looks, from the pictures like the reciever just split.

If you look at this pic:


It looks to me like the case let go first where it was not supported in the extractor area. It is interesting how it split through the front screw hole too.

Red, the main thing is that you are not injured! Personally, I also commend you for coming forward with your screw up and being honest about it. Maybe someone else will learn something from it and be spared from an even worse accident. Kudos.

I saw a S&W M10 blown apart...way back when...from a double load of Bullseye and a 148 gr HB wadcutter...I quit using light loads of fast burning powder at that instant and pulled the bullets and dumped the powder out of 500 practice loads I had on hand.

From that time on, anytime I was asked or anytime I thought it would do some good I related the story...for the most part it never did any good...and still to this day 2.7 grs Bullseye and the 148 gr wadcutter go hand in hand even thought everyone knows what a double load can do...people just won't listen...or...

The same goes for downloading or light loading with fast powders in rifles...most of the time I just get blown off when I tell my stories, you know, the younger crowd just say "forget the old fool"...I will give this thread and pictures now as a reminder of what can happen.

I'm glad you're not hurt other than in the pocket book...it was an expensive lesson but hopefully it will have a lasting effect on those who read and see.

Don't kick yourself too hard or too long, you learned your lesson well...I don't know of anyone who has mucked about with this sport that hasn't had a wake-up call of some kind or another...I'm embarrased at the number I've had over the years.

I never saw the need for reduced loads anyway...you buy a rifle for a reason, doesn't matter the size or caliber...you need to learn to shoot the heaviest loads within SAAMI MAP range if you are to do it right. You see what trying to save a few pennies on powder actually cost...

My thoughts are...If you want a lighter load buy a smaller cal rifle...or load with the lightest bullet available and use a powder recommended by several loading manuals at a reduced velocity...most manuals have at least a few lower velocity/light bullet loads listed that have been tested...maybe not for the calibers normaly reserved for the high end crowd, but I do remember some for the 30-30 using the old 100 gr Speer "plinker" that were accurate and weren't all that speedy.

Anyway...Hindsight is always 20-20 isn't it.

Luck on your projects.

Takes a big man to admit his mistakes.

This is why the old guy who taught me reloading said never to use "reduced" loads like this. Great for plinking, but you run the risk of a kaboom.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Red, it's refreshing to see an honest man who owns up to his mistakes.

Agreed.....

Thanks for posting this as it just might be helpful to others!

It was only a matter of time. Thank God you were not seriously injured. roger

I'm glad you're ok. Too bad about the rifle. I take it there were no bystanders near enough to get hurt. That is good too.

Tough lesson learned.

Never load ammo while distracted.

I for one, will still use Blue Dot loads. I know there are fellas poised over their keyboards right now just itching to pounce on that statement.

Whatever.

NEVER LOAD AMMO WHILE DISTRACTED.

Should go without saying at all times, regardless of WHAT ammo you're loading. At least you were MAN ENOUGH to admit it was you're fault. Kudos for that.

--The following is NOT directed at Red, but at the "Net Nannies" just itching for an excuse to preach their own brand of "how things should be done"-- AKA, the "pouncers"

I hand measure each BD charge, throw it in the case, watch it flow down from the funnel into the case, then IMMEDIATELY seat a bullet on that case. I permit NO distractions while I'm loading any ammo, including my Blue Dot loads.

If you can't or won't load that way, then stay away from ANY POWDER that doesn't fill the case.

And quite frankly, if you can't follow basic rules of loading safety and attention to detail, then stop handloading and buy factory ammo.

Handloading does not come with a 'Net Nanny to save your ass. Any powder, in any cartridge, can be a potential "kaboom" if the dope behind the press is determined to be an idiot. That's why there are disclaimers on every reloading component package you can buy.

Handloading is not for idiots. If you can't pay attention to what you're doing, go find a new hobby. Like billiards.

Jeeze, I can't believe ol Hot Core himself isn't all over this like a pit bull on a pork chop... "SEE!!, SEE!!, TOLD YA!!, TOLD YA!!"

quote:

Jeeze, I can't believe ol Hot Core himself isn't all over this like a pit bull on a pork chop... "SEE!!, SEE!!, TOLD YA!!, TOLD YA!!"

WOW... I mean... WOW!

Red C., I am glad you are ok... sorry you had to endure such an expensive lesson.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
It was only a matter of time. Thank God you were not seriously injured. roger

What do you mean by "It was only a matter of time".

quote:

catastrophic failure apparently as a result of firing a round that had a double charge of Blue Dot.

Four things; firstly, sorry for your loss and greatful for your survival; second, would you mind posting this pic on the other thread to show what happens when cases are not batch charged then checked; thirdly, this reinforces my standpoint that a reduced charge of fast powder must be safe at double charge! ; fourthly, is this not a 'classic' reduced load 'detonation'?

quote:

You're welcome to go ahead and kick me in the butt ...

No - that's not what friends do! You have redeemed yourself with your 'upfrontness'! Anyway, who hasn't made a mistake? We are just lucky ours did not blow up in our faces, that's all! Besides, you are attempting to make the rest of us safer from your own misfortune.

quote:

Takes a big man to admit his mistakes.

Exactly!

quote:

From the pictures it looks strange to me that the reciever "let go" aparently around the barrel threads, but the barrel looks undamaged.

Apparently this is often the case. A blown reciever ring and an intact, re-usable barrel!

Damn shame about that fine rifle!

First off, glad you are ok. Stuff like that tends to hurt...and hurt bad.

Second, you admit to the error. Integrity. There's not enough of it left in the world anymore. Glad to see it here. Good on ya.

Third, if you reload long enough, you will, somewhere, somehow, have a bad load. I discovered that certain powders just don't feed worth a damn (Clays, Bullseye, Unique) through my powder measure and ended up with several light charges. The lesson for me was to change powders (231). There's always a lesson. But the lesson can only be learned if one keeps their eyes open.

Mistakes happen. Lessons can be learned. It is only the fool that doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Anyway, back to my original thought:

Nice show of integrity. I can only hope others learn from your example and don't make the same mistake.

When I want a reduced power load I go for a caseful of something really slow instead of a dibble of something really fast. Sure it costs more in powder but the gun tends to stay in the same number of pieces it had when it left the factory.

quote:

Nice show of integrity. I can only hope others learn from your example and don't make the same mistake.

I'll rephrase that to:-

quote:

Nice show of integrity. I can only hope others learn from your example!

quote:

When I want a reduced power load I go for a caseful of something really slow instead of a dibble of something really fast. Sure it costs more in powder but the gun tends to stay in the same number of pieces it had when it left the factory.

Ahh - now your talking! Trouble is, there's not much info on that! I would like to hear more, please?

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
Heaven forbid any of you guys load 38 or 44 Specials.

Please send your revolvers to me ASAP if you are prone (or even think it could happen)to this error!

Hey I was gonna say that!

After the first time reloading 38SPL 158g loads, I was wondering how many people had blown up their guns with a double charge.

VERY EASY TO DO if you ain't watchin and payin attention to detail.

44SPL same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
Never load ammo while distracted.

That says it all right there.

Glad you weren't hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Anyway...Hindsight is always 20-20 isn't it.

As long as you still have your eyes...

Thanks a lot for sharing. One can't be careful enough with all things you can make move fast. That applies not only to bullets but also to automobiles, motor bikes and others.

Would you mind telling us the original load you planned to use? It would be interesting to calculate the pressure your rifle went through.

Glad you're O.K. Red. Really sorry about your rifle and like everyone else said, it takes a really big man to admit what you did.
On the other hand, I guess Mr. Judge and Jury "bfrshooter" has never loaded cast bullets:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Keep reading my posts here and at other sites about the stupidity of using reduced loads or fast powders in guns that were designed otherwise. Why did you ever contemplate using other then a case full of slow powder? If you wanted a slow caliber, why not buy a slow caliber?
I feel real sorry for you about the loss of a fine rifle and hope you suffered no injuries.
However I keep seeing the same thing over and over. A guy buys a .44, .475 or .500 and the first question posted is "What light load can I make?" What in the hell was the gun bought for in the first place? If a toy was wanted why didn't they buy a .38? Or a 30-30 or an SKS?

To call an individual "stupid" because he uses reduced loads is both arrogant and narrow-minded. Guess macho men like him feel like him feel like they need every fps possible.
For competition and target shooting, I load cast bullets exclusively in my rifles. I too admit to a double charge a few years ago. It was in one of my old Enfields. Fortunately I was loading Unique and though it was a double charge and it was quite difficult to open the bolt, the rifle was unharmed. From that incident and the fact that there are constant distractions such as my wife coming in or the phone ringing, I changed my loading technique. I now charge the case and then immediately seat the bullet before going on to the next case. If I get distracted and there's any doubt about the amount of powder in the case, I dump it and start over.
Given the fact that I shoot at least one rifle match per month, I have a range here at the house, and I'm hopelessly addicted to shooting, I probably load and fire more ammunition, all reduced loads, in a week than most people fire in a year. I load and shoot every day that I'm not out of town. Judging from the empty primer boxes in the trash can in my loading room I'd say that since the first of the year I've fired close to 1000 reduced loads. My match load for my 7.5 Swiss is 8.0 grs. of Red Dot, though next month I'll be shooting 6.7 grs. of Bullseye.
My point is that reduced loads can be used safely. Their loading just requires some aadjustments to standard loading technique. Don't listen to all the naysayers as any mistake is an opportunity to learn!
Regards,
35W

For the small amount of reduced loading I have done, I have chosen a powder such that a double charge will be easily visible from the case neck if not overflowing, such as 4198 in a 303 Br. If I was going for a pistol type powder, I would go for a high bulk powder such as Trail Boss, where tiny loads fill large spaces & I have read some good reports of it for light plinking loads in a variety of medium rifle cartridges. To me, post charging inspection, with a depth gauge (pencil, plastic rod) if powder is not easily visible, is the most important stage of reduced loading. If interrupted, dump the last few loads & do them again. Urgency has no part in this game.
I have to say that I admire Red for his honesty & forthrightness in posting this for others to learn from. Well done that man.
Steve

Red,

Wow! I'm glad you didn't suffer any serious physical injury.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Red, it's refreshing to see an honest man who owns up to his mistakes.

Agreed.....

Thanks for posting this as it just might be helpful to others!

+1 on this one pleased to see you were O.K.!

whenever you see a modern rifle blown to pieces the stories always have one recurring theme. A HANDGUN powder was used.
I don't understand the facination guys have with these hair dryer in the bathtub reduced loads. The frequency of reports such as this has prompted me to swear them off a long time ago.

Guys it does not have to be a reduced load that is the problem, that is really a moot point. DISTRACTION is the key--I can say this from experience! I did not have a failure quite as bad as the one shown, but I blew a nearly new 6.5 WSM built by SSK Industries a couple of years ago. My mistake is that I was loading several different test loads, several different powders and bullets. The phone rings, I am distracted, go back to loading, pick up and load the wrong powder for a test load. It took a large heavy hitting hammer to open the bolt, and the primer pocket could have fit 2 primers in it! It seemed OK--but I put the offensive load to the side and tried a proven load that now also stuck in the gun. I had enlarged the chamber and the receiver by a good margin with the offensive load--The ruined action sits on my loading bench to remind me of my distraction.

So reduced loads or not it really does not matter--DISTRACTION is the key word in most accidents like this. Many years ago I have seen several of my buddies blow to pieces really nice 45 ACPs--reduced loads had nothing to do with it. I have also seen folks blow up revolvers, but never with a reduced load. In all cases it was distractions and not paying attention to the mission at hand!

Red
One very lucky chap, both of us! I know these days I pay more attention, but we are still human and we make mistakes. Once I am distracted I try and double, triple, check every thing I had done to that point.

Michael

quote:

Posted 24 February 2009 13:04 Hide Post
Glad you're O.K. Red. Really sorry about your rifle and like everyone else said, it takes a really big man to admit what you did.
On the other hand, I guess Mr. Judge and Jury "bfrshooter" has never loaded cast bullets:

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Keep reading my posts here and at other sites about the stupidity of using reduced loads or fast powders in guns that were designed otherwise. Why did you ever contemplate using other then a case full of slow powder? If you wanted a slow caliber, why not buy a slow caliber?
I feel real sorry for you about the loss of a fine rifle and hope you suffered no injuries.
However I keep seeing the same thing over and over. A guy buys a .44, .475 or .500 and the first question posted is "What light load can I make?" What in the hell was the gun bought for in the first place? If a toy was wanted why didn't they buy a .38? Or a 30-30 or an SKS?



To call an individual "stupid" because he uses reduced loads is both arrogant and narrow-minded. Guess macho men like him feel like him feel like they need every fps possible.

I called NO individual "stupid", only the process is stupid. Light loads are the reason 4759 was developed, a bulky low pressure powder with wide applications in large cases. There are hundreds of other powders.
Everyone here is of the opinion it was a double charge--fine, but WAS IT? Or was it a disaster waiting to happen even with the exact charge thrown? Not many here ( A few have.) has even given it any thought because the answer always is, "I have done it for years and will continue to do it." Those are points that stretch intelligence, doing something without knowing EXACTLY what caused the destruction of a fine rifle. Too many of you put your faith in the double charge theory. WHAT IF THE SHELL WAS NOT DOUBLE CHARGED? At this point after the man showed us his gun I would stop what I was doing RIGHT NOW and start dumping cases and I would never again defend the process.
Without actually knowing what happened and to lead others by the nose into believing it is OK to put a pinch of shotgun powder in a large rifle case, you might be leading some poor soul to his death, I call THAT stupid.
Don't jump down my throat when you have no clue to the actual cause of this accident. How would you feel if someone dies using your ideas?
I have told all of you many times about the load of 46 gr of 4831 behind a 129 gr bullet in our Swede's. We shot this load for years with super accuracy, then both of us had SEE events that blew the primer pockets and locked the bolts. This is a published load with claims of being accurate and safe. I will not be stupid and recommend this load from a Swede EVER again. At one time I DID recommend it and here you are defending a practice that is dangerous just because you have gotten away with it--so far!
Let it go on record that I would never use a load you recommend in any of my guns.
At least there are a lot of fellas here that see the light and will not take chances. Maybe if you read every word of my posts several times instead of reading between the lines looking for a reason to jump down my throat, you will start showing the intelligence you were born with.
Defending how you load to ensure you do not get a double charge is NOT the answer because you have no idea what actually happened. I don't and nobody else does either.
If you blow up your rifle, you will never tell and you will fade away quietly.

quote:

Keep reading my posts here and at other sites about the stupidity of using reduced loads or fast powders in guns that were designed otherwise.

As usual, Mr. Personality, your stellar way of showing empathy for your fellow man is blatantly evident. You amaze me. You can make a statement that implies never using a firearm to do something other than what it was designed for, and then you shoot 335-grain bullets in a 45 Colt revolver, which was designed for a 250-grain bullet. Say what?

I would ask that you take a look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook... And pay particular attention to the rifle section. I would be willing to bet that the folks at Lyman know a thing or two about handgun powders in rifles.

Glad to see you are still with us.
I hope you heal in body and spirit fast.
Thanks for your post.

quote:

As usual, Mr. Personality, your stellar way of showing empathy for your fellow man is blatantly evident. You amaze me. You can make a statement that implies never using a firearm to do something other than what it was designed for, and then you shoot 335-grain bullets in a 45 Colt revolver, which was designed for a 250-grain bullet. Say what?

Of course I do. It is a RUGER! By the way, one of my boolits weighs 347 gr. They are NOT loaded over pressure.
I don't care if you do not like my personality, the question here is do you promote something that could be dangerous? I will not fall into that. My fellow shooters mean a lot to me.
Do you believe all you read? Or do you go by experience?
Can YOU explain why the poor mans gun came apart? I can't but am smart enough to take a step back from the cliff.
Seems to me it is a LOT safer to load the proper powder until pressure signs show up then to detonate a gun.
But I still love you!

This is the reason that it is not prudent for most reloaders (I am a handloaders and there is a difference) to use reduced charges!! The Gene Pool was almost strengthened lol! When you are using a powder other than its designed and recommended use you deserve what you get. Unfortunately, sometimes it is a "bolt" sticking out of your head.

"Blue Dot®
Smokeless magnum shotshell and handgun powder

The powder of choice for magnum lead shotshell loads 10, 12, 16 and 20 gauge. Consistent and accurate. Doubles as magnum handgun load.
Powder of choice for magnum loads
Consistent
Accurate
Principal Purpose: Magnum shotshell loads, 10, 12, 16, 20 and 28 ga.
Secondary Uses: Magnum handgun loads

Remarks:
Powder of choice for magnum hunting loads."



If I knew someone was shooting next to me with pistol powders in rifle cases I would leave much sooner than later. Sorry but I have no sorrow for stupid people--they deserve what they get. FWIW the guy does have fortitude to post his stupidity for all to see.

Sorry but everyone knows I speak the truth in this matter but go ahead and tell me how heartless I am lol.

One more thing---HEEEERRRRREEEEESSSSS Your Sign...

Boss Hoss, you and BFR should sit down together and rejoice at how much smarter you are than the rest of us. You two deserve each other...

BFR, this is not personal at all. But you make statements that are unsupportable: You defend doing what you do "because it's a Ruger", then state the loads are "NOT loaded over pressure". I ask you in all seriousness: how do you know that? Do you have strain gauges? Have you sent said loads to Alliant and requested they run the pressure tests? I suspect not. But if I am wrong I stand corrected.

There are several barrels worth of ink available on the internet talking about pressure signs in revolvers and how hard it is to tell when overpressure takes place. By the time you have to hammer cases out of the cylinder you have in effect begun to impact weld the brass to the chamber, and pressures are WAY over the top. Just because primers are not bradded and the cases are pushed free easily does not mean you haven't overloaded the revolver. Rugers are massive, clunky revolvers, probably designed that way so Ruger is less liable for a lawsuit in the event of an overcharge. Does that mean we should hotrod them, as you freely admit to doing? I think not...

As much as I sometimes respect your abilities and your knowledge, right now you are defending your ability (and right) to do something that is untested and unproven, while pointing the finger at someone else doing the same thing. And that double standard, sir, is what rankles me.