quote:

Defending how you load to ensure you do not get a double charge is NOT the answer because you have no idea what actually happened. I don't and nobody else does either.

There is a lot of data in the Lyman handbooks that use the faster burning powders in most centerfire cartridges. If Lyman has not had mysterious blow ups and feels safe enough to provide the data I suspect it is safe. They have been doing so longer than I have been living.

In the mean time I will not fill a 45-70 full of powder using a 500 grain bullet.

Boss Hoss you are not heartless you are arrogant which will produce so many more ills than stupidity.

In case you are stupid as well, yes I am saying your posting smacks of arrogance.

-Unique

(BTW, Unique was released as a Rifle Powder by Hercules many years ago for reduced loads in rifles and yes I use it for that purpose all the time.)

I'm glad your OK and admire you for taking the blame and not blaming the rifle. It's also a good thing that it happened with a strong modern action, if it had been a 03 Springfield the consequences could have been much worse. I don't do fast powder reduced loads myself, but it is a time honored practice going back to the days of Whelen and Hatcher, and you shouldn't be criticised for it.

quote:

Posted 24 February 2009 19:47 Hide Post
Boss Hoss, you and BFR should sit down together and rejoice at how much smarter you are than the rest of us. You two deserve each other...

BFR, this is not personal at all. But you make statements that are unsupportable: You defend doing what you do "because it's a Ruger", then state the loads are "NOT loaded over pressure". I ask you in all seriousness: how do you know that? Do you have strain gauges? Have you sent said loads to Alliant and requested they run the pressure tests? I suspect not. But if I am wrong I stand corrected.

There are several barrels worth of ink available on the internet talking about pressure signs in revolvers and how hard it is to tell when overpressure takes place. By the time you have to hammer cases out of the cylinder you have in effect begun to impact weld the brass to the chamber, and pressures are WAY over the top. Just because primers are not bradded and the cases are pushed free easily does not mean you haven't overloaded the revolver. Rugers are massive, clunky revolvers, probably designed that way so Ruger is less liable for a lawsuit in the event of an overcharge. Does that mean we should hotrod them, as you freely admit to doing? I think not...

As much as I sometimes respect your abilities and your knowledge, right now you are defending your ability (and right) to do something that is untested and unproven, while pointing the finger at someone else doing the same thing. And that double standard, sir, is what rankles me.

Posts: 1004 | Location: TX | Registered: 01 April 2005

But you see, you are talking two different things again. Working the proper powder until pressure signs show up with measurements at the expansion ring is far different then dumping in a fast powder hoping for the best. When the fast powder fails, it is sudden and deadly unlike hard extraction or a flat primer. Fool around with a powder that 1/10 gr means a lot, then shoot it in all weather conditions spells catastrophe.
My revolver loads are proven and safe in Ruger's. I know for a fact that 8.5 gr more powder then I use has not damaged a Ruger.
You base your premise on boolit weight only and not proven facts or load information. Since when has boolit weight alone caused higher pressure then a gun can take?
You would think nothing about shooting a 250 gr boolit over 1400 fps but complain loudly over me shooting a heavier boolit a shade over 1100 fps.
Next you will say it is dead wrong to shoot a 220 gr bullet from a 30-06 because it is too heavy!
I do NOT point my finger at anyone doing the same thing, I am pointing my finger at those that are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of safe and proven practice.
The ball is in your court! YOU SHOW ME HOW TO DETERMINE HIGH PRESSURE as fast shotgun powder loads are increased in large rifle cases BEFORE THE GUN FAILS! Where is that point? 1/10 gr, 1/100 of a gr? Does it matter if the powder is back against the primer or up against the bullet? What happens if the same bullet or boolit listed in the Lyman book is not used or the primer is changed?
I DO take your comments as personal because you do nothing but pick apart common sense to make your point against me. To accuse me of over pressuring a gun by using a heavy boolit only shows you either have an agenda against me or have zero knowledge about reloading.
I tremble about what you will say about me using 330 gr boolits in my .44!

quote:

The Gene Pool was almost strengthened lol!

That's a bit harsh! Red C. has shown himself to be a big man!

quote:

Everyone here is of the opinion it was a double charge--fine, but WAS IT? Or was it a disaster waiting to happen even with the exact charge thrown?

Well now, is it actually possible to have a 'detonation' with the combo used? My worst case was a lapping bullet that enterd skew and jammed in the rifling leade. All that happend is 'some' pressure flattening of the pistol primer. In short, there wasn't enough energy in the system to do any damage. I could have used a stronger powder charge and not had the bullet jam but chose to risk having to drill the bullet out rather.

quote:

... the load of 46 gr of 4831 behind a 129 gr bullet in our Swede's. We shot this load for years with super accuracy, then both of us had SEE events that blew the primer pockets and locked the bolts.

I have a question here - this loads works for years then one day both rifles experience SEE with it! Something happened. Weather conditions maybe? This must be a reproduce-able event. I wonder whether the load data people would have liked to hear about it?

I would like to know more about SR4759. Does it work for rifle cast bullet loads? Does it like heavy bullets? Light bullets?

Red,

Thanks for sharing your very sobering experience with us.

A double charge is a potential problem with many, many "standard" loads, particularly in handguns and shotguns. Red's experience underscores how important it is to develop a reloading sequence and technique that does all it can to avoid double charges.

A double charge with Blue Dot is a possibility in some cartridges like Red's .257 Weatherby where the "normal" powder charge is less than half of the overrun capacity of the case. On the other hand, in most centerfire .22's, the "normal" Blue Dot charge WILL run over the case if double charged. I use Blue Dot regularly in "moderate" power loads for a .223 and .22 Hornet. The charges I use would overfill the case if double charged and thus immediately call the loader's attention to the mistake.

So, the lesson here is not so much the particular powder that was in use, but the problem of double charging when using a load with which that is possible.

In 40+ years of handloading, my biggest mistake was to misread a powder scale, thus inadvertantly overcharging a cartridge. This was with, of all things, H4831, so you see, the speed and bulk of the powder is in no way a fail-safe guard against overcharging.

Thanks again to Red, and all of us handloaders must remember that any distraction or other cause of carelessness can cause an unwanted, and perhaps dangerous, result.

The events we had were not on the same day or in the same year and can not be reproduced. We could probably go for many more years shooting that load.
The thing is that it happened, just once for each of us.
SR 4759 was designed as a perfect powder for reduced loads in about anything and works for full power loads also. I even use it in the 7BR and 7R pistols. The powder is super accurate.
Loading info is sparse and I called IMR before Hodgdon took over all the powders, to get my info.
The powder is overlooked a lot and was even discontinued for a while.

SR 4759 in the 45-70 with a variety of boolits from 317 to 378 gr's. The powder will also shoot almost one hole groups with the Hornady 300 gr bullet. These were shot at 50 yd's. This gun will shoot accuratly to 500 meters.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
From the pictures it looks strange to me that the reciever "let go" aparently around the barrel threads, but the barrel looks undamaged.

The face of the bolt does not look like it took over pressure.

It looks, from the pictures like the reciever just split.

It looks to me like a Pushfeed Winchester M70 and it further looks like the rim of the bolt face has been blown off, so I'd say, "yeah" the bolt IS "dammaged".

Moa 7BR at 100 and 200 yd's using SR 4759.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Boss Hoss, you and BFR should sit down together and rejoice at how much smarter you are than the rest of us. You two deserve each other...

BFR, this is not personal at all. But you make statements that are unsupportable: You defend doing what you do "because it's a Ruger", then state the loads are "NOT loaded over pressure". I ask you in all seriousness: how do you know that? Do you have strain gauges? Have you sent said loads to Alliant and requested they run the pressure tests? I suspect not. But if I am wrong I stand corrected.

There are several barrels worth of ink available on the internet talking about pressure signs in revolvers and how hard it is to tell when overpressure takes place. By the time you have to hammer cases out of the cylinder you have in effect begun to impact weld the brass to the chamber, and pressures are WAY over the top. Just because primers are not bradded and the cases are pushed free easily does not mean you haven't overloaded the revolver. Rugers are massive, clunky revolvers, probably designed that way so Ruger is less liable for a lawsuit in the event of an overcharge. Does that mean we should hotrod them, as you freely admit to doing? I think not...

As much as I sometimes respect your abilities and your knowledge, right now you are defending your ability (and right) to do something that is untested and unproven, while pointing the finger at someone else doing the same thing. And that double standard, sir, is what rankles me.

Ok for all of the “Haters” -- I will tell you this the precision level that I handload to is more than By Far the majority here employ and I never have nor ever will have an accident from the parts of the process that I have control over. The phenomenon of pistol powders blowing up in Large Capacity cases is well known (try holding the rifle downward every time you pull the trigger with small charges of pistol powder and see how many times you can cheat death).Many of the actual instruments that are used from the borescope to the Buhay bullet bearing surface comparator measuring tool ensure my success in the field or competition. Not many people have dies cut with the same reamers that are used to chamber the barrel either…. Point is my process are exact and the outcome is predictable and if someone is going to mix components for whatever reason in such a way that will potentially kill you and others standing close then: HEEEEERRRRRREEEEESSSSSS YOUR SIGN!!!

I will bet that if the person who owns the range where this gentlemen shoots sees this thread he will be asked not to shoot those types of loads any longer! Care to place a friendly little wager on that one?? I am not arrogant or a hater just someone who does not like shooting with idiots who will put my life in danger by doing something just to be different!! Think about it smart guy-----how would you like a piece of action sticking out of your jugular!! So many IDIOTS so little time!

I assure you that you do not want to get into it with me. The truth has been spoken DEAL with it or I will be forced to get you some "cheese" to go with your "whine"..

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
It looks to me like a Pushfeed Winchester M70 and it further looks like the rim of the bolt face has been blown off, so I'd say, "yeah" the bolt IS "dammaged".

This isn't a M-70 of any kind....if it was it might have survived the incident.



The slot (large one machined into the bolt face) allows the case to rupture and then allows gas to escape into the inside receiver ring and this greatly increases the number of swquare inches the pressure works against.....wammo....what you see is the result.

If the receiver/bolt face does not allow the case to rupture there is a fair chance of avoiding this disaster.

A Rem 700 is specifically designed with this in mind.....the M-70 pushfeed also passes this criteria as does many of the Savage bolt rifles.

Wichita 7R at 200 yd's with SR 4759.
However every expert here will dispute me every tick of the clock. Yet I never see proof or pictures. I have a million and am not afraid to show results.
I dare not tell you about shooting an almost perfect score on the KD 500 yd range with the M1 and winning the company trophy along with expert badges with every weapon. Or winning Ohio State IHMSA with 79 out of 80 using my SBH. Or shooting 1/4" groups with a model 70, 220 Swift at 350 yd's or 1/2" groups at 250 yd's with a Remy .222. Or head shooting chucks to over 600 yd's. Or my .300 Weatherby Mark V that would hold 1/2" at 100 all day and blow up gallon cans to 600 yd's.
Then the hundreds of IHMSA, muzzle loader and archery trophies over the years.
The "SPERTS" here make me laugh every day! Too bad my age has effected my eyes and ability to hold steady but after over 53 years of loading, I still know what I am doing. All I hear is big talk, no proof, just a megaphone stuck in the butt.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

When I want a reduced power load I go for a caseful of something really slow instead of a dibble of something really fast. Sure it costs more in powder but the gun tends to stay in the same number of pieces it had when it left the factory.

Ahh - now your talking! Trouble is, there's not much info on that! I would like to hear more, please?

I use IMR 5010. As far as I know there isn't a single cartridge that will hold too much of it. Of course since the OP was shooting a 257 WBY it wouldn't have produced much of a reduced charge. In 30-06 or something similar it does a great job of it though.

quote:

Ok for all of the “Haters” -- I will tell you this the precision level that I handload to is more than By Far the majority here employ and I never have nor ever will have an accident from the parts of the process that I have control over. The phenomenon of pistol powders blowing up in Large Capacity cases is well known (try holding the rifle downward every time you pull the trigger with small charges of pistol powder and see how many times you can cheat death).Many of the actual instruments that are used from the borescope to the Buhay bullet bearing surface comparator measuring tool ensure my success in the field or competition. Not many people have dies cut with the same reamers that are used to chamber the barrel either…. Point is my process are exact and the outcome is predictable and if someone is going to mix components for whatever reason in such a way that will potentially kill you and others standing close then: HEEEEERRRRRREEEEESSSSSS YOUR SIGN!!!

I will bet that if the person who owns the range where this gentlemen shoots sees this thread he will be asked not to shoot those types of loads any longer! Care to place a friendly little wager on that one?? I am not arrogant or a hater just someone who does not like shooting with idiots who will put my life in danger by doing something just to be different!! Think about it smart guy-----how would you like a piece of action sticking out of your jugular!! So many IDIOTS so little time!

I assure you that you do not want to get into it with me. The truth has been spoken DEAL with it or I will be forced to get you some "cheese" to go with your "whine"..

Thank you Boss, I load that way too.
If that rifle was a Weatherby Vanguard, it is a super accurate and extremely strong action. You would think it would teach a few the error of their ways! But alas, it is not to be so. No rifle in the world would hold together with that pressure. Yet now we have guys saying the rifle was not strong enough and others would not blow up.
I have to look in the drawer to see if I have any Blue Dot for sale! No, wait a minute, I load for my shotguns too!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Wichita 7R at 200 yd's with SR 4759.
However every expert here will dispute me every tick of the clock. Yet I never see proof or pictures. I have a million and am not afraid to show results.
I dare not tell you about shooting an almost perfect score on the KD 500 yd range with the M1 and winning the company trophy along with expert badges with every weapon. Or winning Ohio State IHMSA with 79 out of 80 using my SBH. Or shooting 1/4" groups with a model 70, 220 Swift at 350 yd's or 1/2" groups at 250 yd's with a Remy .222. Or head shooting chucks to over 600 yd's. Or my .300 Weatherby Mark V that would hold 1/2" at 100 all day and blow up gallon cans to 600 yd's.
Then the hundreds of IHMSA, muzzle loader and archery trophies over the years.
The "SPERTS" here make me laugh every day! Too bad my age has effected my eyes and ability to hold steady but after over 53 years of loading, I still know what I am doing. All I hear is big talk, no proof, just a megaphone stuck in the butt.

I compete and do very well but not at the ranges you shoot at I prefer more of a challenge since the distances I have been shooting vermin (yotes to feral hogs and dogs at the ranch) for the last 30 years requires longer range. Have won "few" matches, state championship set a range record and as well and have a few HOF IBS Points.

Your Point Is??? Better take the megaphone out of my butt and give it a blow and while you are at it tell me what I had for lunch! LOL

Boss Hoss words of wisdom: "I will bet that if the person who owns the range where this gentlemen shoots sees this thread he will be asked not to shoot those types of loads any longer! "

Self-evident isn't it? I mean everyone should be discouraged from shooting overloads...just look at the results.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
It looks to me like a Pushfeed Winchester M70 and it further looks like the rim of the bolt face has been blown off, so I'd say, "yeah" the bolt IS "dammaged".

This isn't a M-70 of any kind....if it was it might have survived the incident.

Objection! Argumentative and unresponsive.

I only said it LOOKS like a Win M70PF, I will comment that a 70PF would have an extractor in the bolt, but it IS a flat bottomed receiver
witrh an integral locking lug and that sure looks like a winchester bolt handle to me,
but again I'll agree that the bolt face looks "wrong", so please do tell, WHAT WAS IT?


As the primary point of my reply was that the bolt face IS dammaged, the rest isn't that important.

But I am curious what it was?

Mainly so we all know to NOT buy one

NOT a danger to me as I only want ONE bolt rifle that isn't a Remington (I want a Stainless CRF M70 in 338Win) in addition to the ONE bolt rifle I already have that isn't a Remington (an M38 Husqvarna in 6.5x55).

and I don't do "Reduced loads" in CF rifles either, if I wanted a 22Hornet I'd buy one, so my 223is safe, if I wanted a 300savage I'd buy one so my various 30-06's are safe, ect and so on....

Other than curiosity I don't really care all that much.

AD

BFR---you are correct but because this is the internet, many folks are experts and have much more "gun rag reading" experience that what is accumulated in the field! When some IDIOT gets someone killed or maimed at a public range or a private one for that matter because he is a fool then it hurts the collective and our sport not to mention passion.

Someone who is shooting next to me were to have that happen and a piece of shrapnel were to hit me I would own his last clean pair of underwear---count on it!! If you want to play then you have got to pay..... Something to think about!

quote:

Originally posted by unique:
Boss Hoss words of wisdom: "I will bet that if the person who owns the range where this gentlemen shoots sees this thread he will be asked not to shoot those types of loads any longer! "

Self-evident isn't it? I mean everyone should be discouraged from shooting overloads...just look at the results.

Pretty hard to double charge a RL 22 (RIFLE POWDER) load isn't it???? Words of Wisdom There! HEEERRRRREEEESSSSS Your Sign.. lol

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by unique:
Boss Hoss words of wisdom: "I will bet that if the person who owns the range where this gentlemen shoots sees this thread he will be asked not to shoot those types of loads any longer! "

Self-evident isn't it? I mean everyone should be discouraged from shooting overloads...just look at the results.

Pretty hard to double charge a RL 22 (RIFLE POWDER) load isn't it???? Words of Wisdom There! HEEERRRRREEEESSSSS Your Sign.. lol

Are you, sir, suggesting everyone need only reload with RL22 to prevent catastrophic failure? I will try that in my 223 and then my 45-70 to see how well that works. Thanks for the tip.

-Unique

Allen, there are NO unsafe rifles made today but ALL are unsafe with poor loading practice.
However, as Boss pointed out, just reading about something someone tested does not mean it is safe. It is up to every one of us to evaluate those things and to use our own heads.
The same with handguns where ONLY the highest velocity is sought without regard to safety and accuracy.
All of you see the groups I get and not a single load is near max. Neither were any of my rifle loads. I just wish I would have kept all of the targets.
Not once in my loading career have I ever thought to use the wrong powders. I do not even like fast powders in my revolvers.
Don't bother looking for a rifle to take your goof ups, none are made! With modern guns made to run at up to 60,000 psi, just what are you looking for?
Do you believe everything? I made my first excursion into loading the .454 for a friend to find that the stupid SR primer is dangerous with slow powders like H110 and 296 which are the best for the caliber. Faster powder is needed to be safe. What a piece of crap design. After sticking some bullets into the bore with unburned powder using over a starting load from the books, I refuse to believe anything in print. Then I was told that a Remy 7-1/2 primer must be used---WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ALL ABOUT? That means if someone uses a WW SR primer they can blow up their gun if they stick a bullet and shoot another behind it. I tried SR mag primers with stuck bullets.
Will I ever buy a .454? Not on your life.

quote:

Originally posted by unique:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by unique:
Boss Hoss words of wisdom: "I will bet that if the person who owns the range where this gentlemen shoots sees this thread he will be asked not to shoot those types of loads any longer! "

Self-evident isn't it? I mean everyone should be discouraged from shooting overloads...just look at the results.

Pretty hard to double charge a RL 22 (RIFLE POWDER) load isn't it???? Words of Wisdom There! HEEERRRRREEEESSSSS Your Sign.. lol

Are you, sir, suggesting everyone need only reload with RL22 to prevent catastrophic failure? I will try that in my 223 and then my 45-70 to see how well that works. Thanks for the tip.

-Unique

I am sorry but I think your depends are full sir and you have not taken your donepezil today! That example was to show that it is imposable to load a powder charge of a type that is typically used (the time and pressure curve are very important here) to achieve OPTIMAL results in a large capacity case such as the one in question. You know that or at least you should unless you have forgotten – do you really want to keep pulling my chain on a subject that is about safety and getting someone killed???

The attempt at sarcasm fell about 2 feet short of the target. That means a DQ lol……

Boss Hoss, here are your own words...

"The Gene Pool was almost strengthened lol! "

AND then you say...

"do you really want to keep pulling my chain on a subject that is about safety and getting someone killed???"

So how could I possibly take you serious and not want to pull your chain especially since I took extreme offense to your view that you think it was funny if someone dies because of a mistake. Maybe you really don't know what your saying when you say stuff like that?

Anyway, I think you owe Red C. an apologie.

Here, I'll show you how it is done..."Boss Man, I am sorry I pulled your chain."

Now you go...

-Unique

quote:

To accuse me of over pressuring a gun by using a heavy boolit only shows you either have an agenda against me or have zero knowledge about reloading.

I did not accuse you of anything. I simply asked how you knew that your loads were not over maximum, and as is your norm, you took it personally without substantiating your statement with numbers. Your bluster fails to impress, or deter me from the facts I present.

I will offer you this: even the strongest revolvers will fail, and they will take overpressure loads for a long time before that one final noise that signals energetic disassembly. Ever hear of heat treatment for revolver frames? Wonder how those heat numbers were generated?

I will say this: UNLESS YOU HAVE LOAD DATA FROM A POWDER MANUFACTURER TO GIVE YOU A STARTING POINT AND AN ENDPOINT, YOU DO NOTHING DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE GENTLEMAN USING THE BLUE DOT DID. YOU ARE VENTURING OFF THE BEATEN PATH.

To load a 250-grain bullet at 1400 fps in any of my 45 Colt revolvers would be irresponsible. Again, you miss the point, and choose to insult. As for shooting a 220 in an '06, check your load books. The data exists. Now direct me to a loadbook that lists your sacred 347-grain loads for the 45 Colt chambering.

Get my point?

Please call Lyman and tell them they are full of beans. At least they have numbers to back up their claims.

Boss, sarcasm just sucks! I agree 100%. But I bet we have never damaged any of our guns. Maybe a few learning experiences over the years but never an accident from doing stupid things. Most scary things were from reading what the "SPERTS" came up with, not from what we learned from experience. Experience can make for a few touchy moments that we back away from quickly, never to repeat.
Accuracy is my middle name and is the end game with any gun. To make noise and smoke is for the average Joe. They are tough to teach!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Boss, sarcasm just sucks! I agree 100%. But I bet we have never damaged any of our guns. Maybe a few learning experiences over the years but never an accident from doing stupid things. Most scary things were from reading what the "SPERTS" came up with, not from what we learned from experience. Experience can make for a few touchy moments that we back away from quickly, never to repeat.
Accuracy is my middle name and is the end game with any gun. To make noise and smoke is for the average Joe. They are tough to teach!

Funny you should mention damage to a firearm because of loading malpractice if you will!!! NEVER have I ever had an issue with my rifles because of my loading practices---have had a sticky bolt in the past because of pressure issues driven by temperature (my fault) but other than that nothing—not even a pierced primer.

Unique I will apologize to Red C for being sarcastic and caustic with my comment, which was admittedly misplaced due to the nature of the egregious error that was committed and to you as well for the unflattering comments.

The part I will not apologize for and it is very serious to me is that people like him kill and maim others by acts of stupidity plain and simple. No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig it still wallows in the mud and craps everywhere—eg it STINKS. Not to belabor the point however, Red C would be persona non grata at any range that I had a financial interest or membership in. What is really fortunate in this situation is that no innocent bystanders were injured because if they had Red C would be selling all of his firearms as well as everything else to satisfy the Civil Courts judgment against him----not to mention the possibility of being a convicted felon and having this weigh on his mind every single day for the rest of his life. Prison is not out of the question here either.

Herein concludes the Safety Lesson of the day.

So sorry to hear about your accident and I hope that all goes well with your recovery.

Doubless, I worked my load to 24 gr's without pressure signs. Accuracy went down so I backed off to the accuracy point. (I will NOT tell you what this boolit was actually worked to by a friend.) What you don't understand is that the boolit has two crimp grooves and I seat at the lower one giving me more case capacity and lower pressure.
Working with the LBT 335 gr boolit with Cast precision, I was told just what to do. I followed instructions and have shot my loads for years and years without a flat primer or sticky cases and get better accuracy then you do with most rifles. My brass has just exceeded 50 reloads without a single loss.
After thousands and thousands of heavy boolit loads my revolver is as tight as the day I bought it without any wear.
I think I know what I am doing. I do NOT use 4 gr of Bullseye, I use slow powder that is much safer at the high end.
You are sticking your nose in books looking for a load and boolit that is not there.
No, my load is not safe in a Colt or a cheap clone.
However it has much less pressure then a .44 mag.
If you want to spend the money, I will send you a bunch of loads to get tested.
Funny that my .44 SBH is now over 59,000 heavy loads up to 330 gr boolits and might exceed way over 100,000 shots counting plinking loads without any wear except some roughness to the edges of the forcing cone, that you tell me I shoot bad loads.
What does this have to do with a pinch of shotgun powder in a large rifle case other then to try and flame me?

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

To accuse me of over pressuring a gun by using a heavy boolit only shows you either have an agenda against me or have zero knowledge about reloading.

I did not accuse you of anything. I simply asked how you knew that your loads were not over maximum, and as is your norm, you took it personally without substantiating your statement with numbers. Your bluster fails to impress, or deter me from the facts I present.

I will offer you this: even the strongest revolvers will fail, and they will take overpressure loads for a long time before that one final noise that signals energetic disassembly. Ever hear of heat treatment for revolver frames? Wonder how those heat numbers were generated?

I will say this: UNLESS YOU HAVE LOAD DATA FROM A POWDER MANUFACTURER TO GIVE YOU A STARTING POINT AND AN ENDPOINT, YOU DO NOTHING DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE GENTLEMAN USING THE BLUE DOT DID. YOU ARE VENTURING OFF THE BEATEN PATH.



To load a 250-grain bullet at 1400 fps in any of my 45 Colt revolvers would be irresponsible. Again, you miss the point, and choose to insult. As for shooting a 220 in an '06, check your load books. The data exists. Now direct me to a loadbook that lists your sacred 347-grain loads for the 45 Colt chambering.

Get my point?

Please call Lyman and tell them they are full of beans. At least they have numbers to back up their claims.

This statement unequivocally illustrates that you are one of the people here who read the rags and never delve into the plethora of technical data, which makes this sport so intriguing and dangerous. For you not to be able to discern the difference in the relationship of a fast burning pistol powder in one of the “classic” overbore high pressure cartridges that exists from a low pressure revolver is just plain laughable that you do not understand the dichotomy involved here. Now before you post and make your person look even more foolish do some due diligence!

Research the steels used in the rifle that incurred the catastrophic failure.

Research the phenomena associated with detonation of small quantities of fast burning powders in large overbore magnum cases. Just to let you know a little of what you will find is the volume of the case and the pressure curve given uninhibited and complete instant energy release of the propellant will surprise you.

Now go to work and stop making a ninny of yourself.

Oh you boys....behave.

boss -

you and i ahve been around the rose bush a time or two and i know that you are a fellow who knows his stuff and is to be taken seriously.

having said that, i might venture forth the opinion that the delivery of your wisdom and experience could use a little improvement.

this incident is one that has many obvious lessons and it looks like the original poster not only lived to tell the tale, but learned the lessons from this experience. a little good-natured ribbing is ok, but this seems to have blown a bit out of proportion.

might i suggest (and this is just a suggestion) that you take discussions like this as an opportunity to educate people and give them a hand with your knowledge and experience. sometimes, this may require a bit of patience on your part with those of us who do not have the time and expense invested the way you do; to be honest, i've read the manuals (hornady, lyman and lee) and have a decent book-knowledge of what those books are saying, but as we all know, book knowledge is only as good as the real-life experience that goes with it. the combination of the two is called wisdom!

anyway, just putting it out there for you to consider - i can almost guarantee that a more positive and pro-avctive attitude will go a long way and you will gain many freinds rather than adversaries -

not that anyone comes here to make friends, but still.....

You know I got in this a little late, but who in the hell can call this guy stupid? Maybe what should be discussed here, if one is going to use reduced loads with jacketed bullets, should be "Loading Tecnique", and how to prevent this from happening to ANY OF US in the future. If any of you do not wish to shoot reduced loads with jacketed bullets, more power to you, as I also DO NOT use JACKETED bullets with reduced loads, but I do use lead.

One should always err on the side of caution, and one who admits he made a mistake, certainly is not "stupid".

Regards

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I only said it LOOKS like a Win M70PF, . . . so please do tell, WHAT WAS IT?

My assumption is that it is a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa) action. The Howa actions have been used and sold by Smith & Wesson, as Howa, as Weatherby, and perhaps as others. They are well-made actions constructed of appropriate steels.

I doubt that there was a defect in either the materials or workmanship. It can be argued that a similarly well-made action which handles the gas from a catastrophic case failure in a different way might not come apart quite so throroghly. I doubt that any action would not be damaged by the kinds of pressures obviously generated in this instance. However, the barrel being apparently intact does indicate that the issue was not pressure alone, but rather how the pressure vessel reacted to escaping gas.

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
boss -

you and i ahve been around the rose bush a time or two and i know that you are a fellow who knows his stuff and is to be taken seriously.

having said that, i might venture forth the opinion that the delivery of your wisdom and experience could use a little improvement.

this incident is one that has many obvious lessons and it looks like the original poster not only lived to tell the tale, but learned the lessons from this experience. a little good-natured ribbing is ok, but this seems to have blown a bit out of proportion.

might i suggest (and this is just a suggestion) that you take discussions like this as an opportunity to educate people and give them a hand with your knowledge and experience. sometimes, this may require a bit of patience on your part with those of us who do not have the time and expense invested the way you do; to be honest, i've read the manuals (hornady, lyman and lee) and have a decent book-knowledge of what those books are saying, but as we all know, book knowledge is only as good as the real-life experience that goes with it. the combination of the two is called wisdom!

anyway, just putting it out there for you to consider - i can almost guarantee that a more positive and pro-avctive attitude will go a long way and you will gain many freinds rather than adversaries -

not that anyone comes here to make friends, but still.....

You are correct and that is why I do not mention who some of my friends are in the industry (a few in the bullet making industry who help do the ballistic development and write the manuals have always been nameless)because sometimes I am a little too frank shall we say but am a great guy really ----this subject just galls me to the core! Normally people who do stupid things do not bother me but I have been almost killed by someone who did not clean out the powder dispenser very well! My best friend’s father who is getting up in years loves to load and shoot and gets forgetful---long story short because of my shooting experience he will often ask that I shoot his loads to chrono and see how they shoot on my rest and bags. I was not able to get out to shoot the rifle and he grew impatient and went out to shoot the loads himself.

Bottom line is rifle looked pretty much like the one in this thread except it was a Ruger—gas burned his face and he was cut up a little—broke the glasses and really hammered his left hand which was in close proximity to the bottom of the action where the floor plate blew up because of the gas that went down.

We sent the rifle to Tim North and he scoped it as well as Speedy before we sent it back to Ruger for a replacement (another buddy fixed that for me). This stuff scares me and I take it seriously! One reason I will not go to public or private ranges to shoot except for competition—--incidents like this one.

I have not gotten into it with anyone in a while but this got to me. Everything I said is true about this situation but it was a little too straightforward maybe even caustic and did beg for a response I will admit…. There is no excuse for safety!

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I only said it LOOKS like a Win M70PF, . . . so please do tell, WHAT WAS IT?

My assumption is that it is a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa) action.

Stonecreek nailed it....it's a Howa AKA weatherby Vanguard.

quote:

I am a little too frank shall we say but am a great guy really

i am sure you are!

and i agree that the frustration over an incident like this can really get to a person. every time i see or worse yet find out later about something one of my kids has done that could potentially end their lives, it sends me through the roof!

things like this and the expereince of your friend are good reminders that safety must always come first!

RedC,
I'm just glad you are OK! Thanks for posting your experience!

Shit happens and most people drop their heads with shame and tell no one.

Thanks Red for sharing....I once fired my 7 Rem Mag with a round I didn't drop powder into. What resulted was a bullet stuck in the bore about 2" up from the chamber.

There thats off my chest I told the world....and yes it was a stupid thing of me to do. I always "shine a light" to look at the powder. I guess I don't always now do I.

Good to see this string calming down but I do have to ask some of the anti's here what do you think about cast bullets in rifle? Aren't we talking about the same thing meaning most cast loads use small amount of fast powder or must they always be loaded with slower powder?

I mean we are talking about a complete industry here with many years of experience. I just don't get it?