Golllleeeee HC ! This thread got a little exuberant even though you exibited exemplory restraint. roger

originally posted by 303 guy-That refers to single base powders, particularly, slow large rifle powders. Double base powders - Unique is a double base powder - do not have detonation issues. Nor do faster single base powders (large pistol powders like H4227). Double base powders are flake powders. The biggest danger of under loading with double base powders is that there is insufficient powder to drive the bullet out the barrel resulting in a bullet lodged in the bore!
originally posted by 303 guy-Well now, is it actually possible to have a 'detonation' with the combo used?

Detonation occurs with high explosives not smokeless propellants. Blue Dot is a double based flake propellant you can't have it both ways.
Red C; glad you escaped serious injury and am sorry for the lost rifle. As they say live and learn. Scot

I used to load handgun cartridges using Bullseye and always had nagging doubts. I finally quit and went to slower powders to reduce chances of double charges.

quote:

Good to see this string calming down

Yup! Thing is, how was Red C supposed to know of the dangers? I know of the dangers now, thanks to Red C!

Something that makes me wonder - how does a double charge actually happen? It's easy to skip the powder filling stage and seat the bullet on an empty case but to repeat the powder filling stage is a little more unlikely (still very possible). Powder 'bridging' maybe? Maybe it was a SEE and not a double charge. But surely there has got be enough available energy for a SEE to do any damage! But considering how powder burns - uncontained they burn rather slowly. So, in a large case, what stops the fast pistol powder from 'burning uncontained' until the pressure builds up enough for normal combustion - by which time it is too late and a SEE takes place? If it was bridging, there should be an unfired load with less than 'normal' powder in it. Unless that one was fired earlier, in which case it may have been vagely noticed? Are the fired cases from this batch all the same ie primer flattening? What was the actual load being used?

quote:

Detonation occurs with high explosives not smokeless propellants.

That's understood. I used the term 'detonation' for want of a better expression and because it's the term sometimes used in error. (That's why I put it in ' ' things. )

quote:

Golllleeeee HC ! This thread got a little exuberant even though you exibited exemplory restraint.

That was mischievous!

quote:

What resulted was a bullet stuck in the bore about 2" up from the chamber.

There was discussion on this so I went and tested it and found that a primer alone didn't even dislodge the bullet! This was a case lead bullet in a 303 Brit. Is there any possibility that there was a tiny amount of powder in the case? (I don't feel like trying to remove a jacketed bullet from my bore so I won't be testing it).

About the cast bullets in a rifle question - I have learned from these hallowed threads that minimum slow (normal) powder charges are a better option. I have started testing and so far, have confirmed this.

The biggest manufacturer here for lead bullets for both handguns and rifles is H&H.

The offer load data for reduced rifle loads with handgun powders both on their homepage as well as in a manual they publish.

Most loads are with Vihta N110 which is also recommended by the manufacturer for that purpose.

Other loads like for the 8x57 IS use Unique or Trail Boss. However, N110 is what they say is best for that purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Something that makes me wonder - how does a double charge actually happen?

If you've never throwen a double charge and over flowed a case my hat is off to you. You must be doing close to right every time. I've got a vacuum cleaner ful over overflow*******NOT*I'm lieing. roger

The problem with a double charge of a super fast powder is that even when a loading block is used and you inspect each case with a flashlight, you can miss the small difference in the height.
A distraction can cost you big time.
I prefer a powder that will overflow the case if I screw up and I have never done that in 53 years. I also use a block and look into every case before a boolit gets near the bench.
ANY powder that does not flow through a measure gets weighed on a scale.
A progressive press will never grace my loading bench.

Thanks for sharing your misfortune and analysis. I am very glad you were not seriously injured.

I hope I continue to learn from others.

Much cheaper and safer that way.

Thanks to all for your thoughts of concern!

Many have asked what the load was supposed to be, but I'm in the process of moving and all my reloading stuff is packed and I don't know where my data is. As best I can remember, and it's been about three months since the incident, I think it was 24 grains of Blue Dot. This would have given a double charged weight of 48 grains of Blue Dot. (However, I just can't remember for sure--for some reason the number 31 comes to mind too, but I think it was 24 grains of Blue Dot.) It would be interesting to know what the actual pressure was. I was using standard large rifle primers and 117 grain bullets. I'm pretty sure the COL was 3.220"

NOTE: I've since been told that I should have been using pistol primers.

Also, when I was reloading this group, I checked my block of charged cases with a flashlight, but the batteries were low (light dim) and I didn't take time to change them. Another thing I did wrong. I might have noticed the extra charge with a brighter flash light.

For me, even though it may be safe to use Blue Dot or other fast pistol powders in rifle cartridges, I'm never going to do it again. Just shooting regular ammo after the accident was tough.

I am pulling all the reduced loads I have and am reloading all of them.

quote:

Thanks to all for your thoughts of concern!

Many have asked what the load was supposed to be, but I'm in the process of moving and all my reloading stuff is packed and I don't know where my data is. As best I can remember, and it's been about three months since the incident, I think it was 24 grains of Blue Dot. This would have given a double charged weight of 48 grains of Blue Dot. (However, I just can't remember for sure--for some reason the number 31 comes to mind too, but I think it was 24 grains of Blue Dot.) It would be interesting to know what the actual pressure was. I was using standard large rifle primers and 117 grain bullets. I'm pretty sure the COL was 3.220"

NOTE: I've since been told that I should have been using pistol primers.

Also, when I was reloading this group, I checked my block of charged cases with a flashlight, but the batteries were low (light dim) and I didn't take time to change them. Another thing I did wrong. I might have noticed the extra charge with a brighter flash light.

For me, even though it may be safe to use Blue Dot or other fast pistol powders in rifle cartridges, I'm never going to do it again. Just shooting regular ammo after the accident was tough.

I am pulling all the reduced loads I have and am reloading all of them.


Red C.

I imagine a super bad flinch will have to be taken care of! All of us appreciate your telling and showing this and we are all very happy that you were not injured. It has caused a lot of discussion that can warn others. Even though we will never actually know of you did double charge or it is something that can happen with a book listed charge, you are wise to play it smart. There are just too many great powders out there that fill the bill for anything you want to do.
More then once, book charges have scared the hell out of me with either stuck bullets or something else that should not occur. Those that write loads or put stuff in gun rags are just human too and many are not as smart as some guys right here at AR or many other sites.
Take care and get over the flinch!

quote:

NOTE: I've since been told that I should have been using pistol primers.

I can't imagine why. Your primer pockets on rifle cases are too deep for the shallower pistol primers (Note: SR and SP primers are the same height; not so with LR and LP primers.) The "advice" you've been given is all too typical of armchair experts who read something about using pistol primers in something like Hornet loads, then misinterpret it to apply to "pistol" powders in all rifles. I'm not sure how these things get started, but when the Governor of Louisiana can spin a fictional yarn on television with fifty million people watching about an imaginary railroad through the desert, I guess some folks will believe anything.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Good to see this string calming down

Yup! Thing is, how was Red C supposed to know of the dangers? I know of the dangers now, thanks to Red C!

Something that makes me wonder - how does a double charge actually happen? It's easy to skip the powder filling stage and seat the bullet on an empty case but to repeat the powder filling stage is a little more unlikely (still very possible). Powder 'bridging' maybe? Maybe it was a SEE and not a double charge. But surely there has got be enough available energy for a SEE to do any damage! But considering how powder burns - uncontained they burn rather slowly. So, in a large case, what stops the fast pistol powder from 'burning uncontained' until the pressure builds up enough for normal combustion - by which time it is too late and a SEE takes place? If it was bridging, there should be an unfired load with less than 'normal' powder in it. Unless that one was fired earlier, in which case it may have been vagely noticed? Are the fired cases from this batch all the same ie primer flattening? What was the actual load being used?

quote:

Detonation occurs with high explosives not smokeless propellants.

That's understood. I used the term 'detonation' for want of a better expression and because it's the term sometimes used in error. (That's why I put it in ' ' things. )

quote:

Golllleeeee HC ! This thread got a little exuberant even though you exibited exemplory restraint.

That was mischievous!

quote:

What resulted was a bullet stuck in the bore about 2" up from the chamber.

There was discussion on this so I went and tested it and found that a primer alone didn't even dislodge the bullet! This was a case lead bullet in a 303 Brit. Is there any possibility that there was a tiny amount of powder in the case? (I don't feel like trying to remove a jacketed bullet from my bore so I won't be testing it).

I was useing a Lee Collet die. These have only .001/.002 press. Please dont try this as the bullet was very hard to get out and nobody needs to be beating a bullet out with a rod from the muzzle like I did.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Something that makes me wonder - how does a double charge actually happen?

If you've never throwen a double charge and over flowed a case my hat is off to you. You must be doing close to right every time. I've got a vacuum cleaner ful over overflow*******NOT*I'm lieing. roger

Right! .... Now that you mention it .... Aah Hah! You're not supposed to be using a vacuum cleaner for sucking up powder spills! Hee Hee! (I do it all the time).
OK so the thing is it not only can happen but does happen! Murphey's first law - if anything can go wrong, it will!

quote:

I can't imagine why. Your primer pockets on rifle cases are too deep for the shallower pistol primers (Note: SR and SP primers are the same height; not so with LR and LP primers.)

Hey, you know, I've heard that too. I used to load LR in 44 mag, LP in rifle and so on and on and .... well I have never had any problems. Admittedly, I did not load full-house rifle loads with pistol primers. I still use LR primers for light load testing in my 303 Brit although I shall be reviewing that practice!

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

NOTE: I've since been told that I should have been using pistol primers.

I can't imagine why. Your primer pockets on rifle cases are too deep for the shallower pistol primers (Note: SR and SP primers are the same height; not so with LR and LP primers.) The "advice" you've been given is all too typical of armchair experts who read something about using pistol primers in something like Hornet loads, then misinterpret it to apply to "pistol" powders in all rifles. I'm not sure how these things get started, but when the Governor of Louisiana can spin a fictional yarn on television with fifty million people watching about an imaginary railroad through the desert, I guess some folks will believe anything.

Large pistol primer pockets and large rifle primer pocket tolerances overlap, with roughly a .008" difference in center of the specifications.
Large pistol primers and large rifle primer tolerance to not overlap, with roughly .008" difference in the center of the specifications.

The relationship between primer pocket specifications and primer specifications is that we expect the same number of protruding primers as sunken primers.

According to MacFarland in his gunsmithing book, a rifle firing pins should protrude .055" - .060"
Dunlap's book says .062" - .066".

What does it all mean?
1) There are no rifles out there that are with in spec that will not reach a large pistol primer in a large rifle primer pocket.
2) The two main reasons for not using large pistol primers in large rifle pockets are:
..a) The cup is thinner and may pierce
..b) There is less explosive and may not ignite the larger volume of powder in the larger case.

What does THAT mean?
Stonecreek's post contains "advise .. armchair experts.. can spin a fictional yarn ... I guess some folks will believe anything."

quote:

1) There are no rifles out there that are with in spec that will not reach a large pistol primer in a large rifle primer pocket.

That answers my question - thanks! I think you have also answered my question on another thread as to why some primers seat with more difficulty than some others.

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
Is Blue Dot to be blamed if it was a double charge? Sounds to me like it was attention to detail during loading. No flames intended but identify root cause which seems if double charged, any powder would have done the same. Sorry to hear of your event and really glad you were not seriously hurt.

I concur. I have been using blue dot and unique since the 80's. From the 22 hornet to the 459 Lott!

Glad you're alright Red, thank you for posting this.

For a newbie like me, that photograph is worth a thousand words.

Ask the moderators to change your name to "lucky" or, as we would call it "jammy git"

ATB,

GH

I'd get a locking door if I were you. That's why my reloading area is out off the garage, and has a locking steel door. My wife knows to just call me on my cell phone if its important. If you aren't going to use realistic loads, buy yourself a Ruger 10-22.

Rich
Buff Killer

For those of us who are old enough to remember, the late Bob Hutton who was the technical editor of Guns & Ammo Magazine in the mid 60's, stated loads that approach 100% loading density are not only desirable, but should be considered correct loads. In over 35 years of handloading I've never found the need or desire to deviate from that statement because this can be, and often IS the result. Bill T.

quote:

loads that approach 100% loading density are not only desirable, but should be considered correct loads.

I have always held that view. It just makes sense to me! (But I cannot prove anything).

quote:

Originally posted by billt:
For those of us who are old enough to remember, the late Bob Hutton who was the technical editor of Guns & Ammo Magazine in the mid 60's, stated loads that approach 100% loading density are not only desirable, but should be considered correct loads. .

Mr. Hutton was a little bit of a contankerous old fart, but he was THE reason I bought and read G$A at the time. I haven't seen anyone any better come down the road since He. roger

Hutton was full of BS on several points.
Other than the writings of PO Ackley there was not much in in G&A that I cared for and certainly not Hutton.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Learn to charge cases by the batch.
Then examine all the charge levels with a flashlight for a uniform fill level.
Only then do you seat the bullets.

+1

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR4759:
Hutton was full of BS QUOTE]

Perhaps I'm just weird. As far as PO, although I respect the man for most things, even he screwed up at times. One of my rifles he did for me will atest to that.

Hutton wasn't right all the time either but for me he was entertaining. roger

I would start out with a skeptical view of anything in a load book.

I wrote Sierra about their load book for pistols that says CZ52s are stronger than Tokarevs. I said that is wrong, both analytically and empirically. Where did you get that? They said they were just printing what THEY read. And so errors in the gun culture are memes that replicate. There is no other source for the all the wrong information in Speer 12, 13, and 14. It got made up all at once at Speer. Fake start velocities, different pressures, but velocities of loads listed in a hierarchy, and weak 30-30 brass.


-------------------
As far as Red C. blowing up his .257 Wby Mag and posting pics and details.
That took allot of courage to post.

I have blown up lots of guns just to see what happens, and it takes allot of time and money.

Red posting that saves me the effort of doing it.

On most forums, not this one, anything out of the ordinary draws the response, "I wouldn't do that." from the 90% that never do anything experimental.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR4759:
Hutton was full of BS QUOTE]

Perhaps I'm just weird. As far as PO, although I respect the man for most things, even he screwed up at times. One of my rifles he did for me will atest to that.

Hutton wasn't right all the time either but for me he was entertaining. roger

It always bugged me that Hutton claimed that .270 brass was stronger than .30/06 brass.
His reasoning was based on the fact that .270 ammo is loaded to a higher pressure level.
I will not even bother to comment on why that statement is wrong. I think most of us know better.

Well, I had a 'potentially blown up Lee Enfield' yesterday. The classic powderless case. Only thing is, it left the bullet in the throat! On opening the bolt (after a few seconds wait) I found a spent case and thought I had failed to reload after the last shot, so I chambered another round ..... !!! Well, it wouldn't chamber so I took it out to see what was wrong and the bullet was sitting kinda deep in the neck where it had come to rest on the powder. Had there been enough room in the case for the bullet to slip all the way back .....

The offending case must have been somehow picked up and bulleted as it was one I had rejected for having too short a neck and would therefore not have been neck sized but was tight enough to hold the bullet in place. That may be how the bullet got to stick in the leade - it had moved forward in the magazine. (I have never had a bullet being dislodged from the case by a primer alone - mostly with testing).

quote:

us

Posted 08 March 2009 00:19 Hide Post
Eeker
Well, I had a 'potentially blown up Lee Enfield' yesterday. The classic powderless case. Only thing is, it left the bullet in the throat! On opening the bolt (after a few seconds wait) I found a spent case and thought I had failed to reload after the last shot, so I chambered another round ..... !!! Well, it wouldn't chamber so I took it out to see what was wrong and the bullet was sitting kinda deep in the neck where it had come to rest on the powder. Had there been enough room in the case for the bullet to slip all the way back ..... BOOM

The offending case must have been somehow picked up and bulleted as it was one I had rejected for having too short a neck and would therefore not have been neck sized but was tight enough to hold the bullet in place. That may be how the bullet got to stick in the leade - it had moved forward in the magazine. (I have never had a bullet being dislodged from the case by a primer alone - mostly with testing).


Regards

You had better believe it! A primer can surely push a bullet out into the barrel. Think of the results if the bullet would have been farther down the bore allowing you to chamber the next round.
So here is another thing to consider. The blown rifle could have been caused by a shot with NO powder for the one before, a double charge, or a bullet down the bore before the powder lit off.
Why anyone fools with the wrong components for large cases is beyond comprehension. Is it because someone says it works for them? Personally, I don't listen to stuff that is out of the safe limits for any cartridge even if listed in manuals. Brass was made to hold powder, not air and a pinch of powder.
A .50 BMG takes around 220 gr of powder, next someone will say 2 gr of Bullseye works great!

quote:

Think of the results if the bullet would have been farther down the bore allowing you to chamber the next round.

Exactly!

I had that hollow feeling of "Oh hell! It nearly happened to me!"

quote:

The blown rifle could have been caused by a shot with NO powder for the one before, a double charge, or a bullet down the bore before the powder lit off.

Exactly again!

Scary thing is that I was using the 'block method' and still had an empty case! (Not an overloaded case or unevenly loaded case - just an empty case!) Of course, I will be reviewing my reloading practices and set up to determe how I made the stuff-up in the first place and to make sure I will not do anything like it again! Murphy's Law states that if anything can go wrong, it will! Now, I was warned by Red C's incident and yet I still botched up dangerously! I have no excuse! (Do I have to piss on the electric fence myself?!!!)

If I may ask - the primer force alone pushing the bullet into the rifling? I have tested it and the bullet did not even dislodge from the neck. Why would my results be different from conventional wisdom? Is it the different power primers or is it that sometime a tiny amount of powder gets into the case (i.e. the empty case was not actualy empty but did not get enough powder due to bridge-ing, meaning that a 'block' inspection would have prevented it)?

I can tell you I will very actively keep away from loads that will allow the bullet to be forced back into the case too far and will actively make sure I check the bore before shooting after a 'misfire' of any kind!)

Exactly why I adopted the charge a case and then seat a bullet style of reloading...

Using the block method I have ended up with empty cases that go back to being distracted by the wife or a phone call...

I started doing the one at a time method, to eliminate doing a double charge... but it has proven the safest method for me...

It can vary for someone else... but for me that has proven the most consistent and also the safest...

All of us hope not to experience what Red had to go thru...

Thank God for 303 Guy that the bullet hadn't gone far enough to allow the following round to chamber and go off with an obstructed barrel...

I don't know about everyone else, but this stuff has had me checking, double checking and triple checking my ammo lately....

It takes but a moment of distraction to make a mistake.
When I'm useing fast powders for reduced loads I weigh the loaded rounds & any that vary from the norm get disassembled to see why. I consider it time well spent.

Looking back through the thread, I believe it was bfrshooter who mentioned that "it may not have been a Double Charge at all". Maybe it was a Double Charge, but as Dr. Oehler recently showed, Pressure can easily increase by 50% due to the Position of small amounts of Fast Burning Powder. I will agree with bfrshooter.

Plus we have 338vt's near Ka-Boom using Blue Dot in non-factory Tested Loads.

To top it off, a buddy who frequents 24hour sent me a link to a thread where seafire apparently just "dreamed-up" the 257WbyMag Load and gave it to Red C. If memory serves me correctly, seafire also did the same thing with one of the 17cals, which resulted in the thread where 338vt mentioned his rifle had to go to a Gun Smith to Hammer it apart.

I can see where slow slim would think that is just the kind of Load info he wants.

For the Beginners, the use of non-factory Tested Loads is a HUGE mistake. Nothing wrong with factory Tested Down-Loads, because they have folks doing the Testing who both understand Pressure and NEVER simply "dream-up" a Load and pass it on.

Best of luck to you Red C. Sure glad seafire did not Kill you.

I'm just having a difficult time trying to understand this load combination in the first place. Blue Dot has no place in a cartridge the likes of a Weatherby Magnum. What is to be gained? While there are all sorts of whacked out load combinations possible, I don't see any benifit to it. I looked in one of my Lyman manuals, and it lists a load of 20.0 grains of Unique under a 552 grain cast bullet for the .460 Weatherby Magnum. I laughed. Why??? A bit like a Corvette that runs on 4 cylinders on the highway to save gas. If that's of concern buy a Yaris. Bill T.

I dont use blue dot, but i still use loading blocks, Not one but two, I start with one loading block full of the unloaded primed cases, and the other block empty, I simply pick up the charge the case and move it the the other block. works for me.

A few questions for Red C:

1. What happened to the brass case as it's not in any of your pics?

2. Were you wearing safety glasses or some other form of eye protection when this accident happened?

3. Did Weatherby keep all the pieces you sent them for inspection or return them to you?

4. Did the riflescope get repaired or scrapped?

5. Has your wife asked you to never again reload ammo?

No matter how many others berate you for what happened, or why it happened, I thank you for posting your sorrowful story. It should serve as a reality check on just how dangerous our hobby can be when due diligence isn't heeded. You are one lucky dude to have not been more seriously injured. I hope that any mental scars heal as quickly as your physical ones.

quote:

Well, I had a 'potentially blown up Lee Enfield' yesterday. The classic powderless case.

After much pondering I have figured out what happened! I had been using the 'block'. I had rejected one case because of its neck being a little short. After loading the batch, I decided to load up the short necked case anyway. So, being careful with just that one case, I sized, primed then powdered the case, place it into the seater, placed the bullet and seated it! I didn't shake it - why should I? I knew I had done everything correctly! Except for one small detail - I did not look into the case. Why should I? I knew I had put powder into it! Except that the powder measure was empty!!!!

Now just for fun I'll tell you folks about my last loading session. I loaded up 20 rounds. In the block. I did every thing the way I should and guess what - I found four faulty loads! Bridging! Had I been loading each case to completion instead of batch loading, those faulty loads would have gone through to the firing range! Two overloads and two underloads! I'm not sure which would have been worse - probably the overloads!

There has been some suggestion that Trail Boss would be a safer powder for reduced loads. Well, I have just discovered it is made by ADI of Australia and they say it is usable in rifle cartridges!

quote:

Typical Load:


Rifle

45-70 Government

Bullet Type: 385 grain cast lead projectile
Charge Weight: 16.0 grains
Velocity: 1140 ft/sec
Pressure: 23,200 cup

First of all thanks to the Original Poster for having the character to show his mistake to everyone. I'm glad he wasn't seriously injured.

I realize I'm in a distinct minority here but I think Blue-Dot reduced loads are a bad idea. ONE blown up rifle and injured member here is TOO MANY. Is continued encouragement of such loads worth someone else blowing up a rifle and GETTING HURT worth it?

What is the real point of them anyway? If you only can afford one rifle and need practice loads I can see a use for them but which of you posters here doesn't own multiple guns? Why not just use a milder caliber for practice? I've read Whelen using reduced loads for foraging while on long hunts but who can do that nowadays, the seasons don't overlap or hunting regulations forbid pot shooting. I just don't see a truly practical reason for them other than a dangerous loading exercise.

Maybe someone can explain a truly useful practical reason for them. I'm not trying to just be a flamer, I really don't see a practical use in the context of what most shooters I know own and use.............................DJ

Now that you mention it, to make a reduced load case for a rifle is real easy. Reduce the volume with epoxy resin!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Now that you mention it, to make a reduced load case for a rifle is real easy. Reduce the volume with epoxy resin!

Two wrongs don't make a right!