During the last primer shortage loaders without were calling loaders with, HOARDERS.
When components can be had at a good price it is prudent to buy in quantity if you can afford it. It is as much of an investment as if you were buying oil stock, tax free bonds or gold bullion.
It is a real hedge against inflation as metal baring material will never come down if purchased at the right time and price. components such as cases and bullets contain a lot of copper. With the need for copper in Iraq and Afganistan and the large export to China to me it is unlikely we'll ever see the cost of bullets ever come down. A large portion in price will always be determined by availability.
Again when the price is right, invest if you can. Here are some not too long ago opportunities in which I made investments.
Primers:
Wolf small rifle $15.00/k.
CCI #34 $17.00/k
Cases
Armscor .223 primed $17.00/c
22 Rem. Jet $19.00 /c
Bullets
.22, 34 grain HP Mid South less than
$5.00/c(bought many thousand)
52, 55, and 60 grain Bergers from $7.50 to
$49.00 /c (again bought several thousand)
Powder
There came a time when surplus powders were being sold at great prices. It was also forewarned that the end of surplus powder was at hand. I invested in many of these

DP 74
DP 85 (similar to the 4350s)
DP 86 (similar to 3031)
There were good investments on commercial powders also.

Thunderbird T1680
Thunderbird 8208
:better than any other stocks or bonds I have money in and they have allowed me to help fellow shooters in need; some of them on this forum.
We also heard the accusation that this HOARDING had driven up the cost of primers. Lack of availability caused by our Governmental action in the mid East was the real culprit.
FWIW I hope this enlightens some of you to what to this point may have been an un-thought-of investment philosophy. roger

just my opinion:

maintaining a year's supply, or stocking up when things are on sale is wise.

stocking up with the notion of profiteering off of your fellow shooters in a time of shortages is the sign of a real asshole.

the word "investment" is a dead giveaway.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
just my opinion:

maintaining a year's supply, or stocking up when things are on sale is wise.

stocking up with the notion of profiteering off of your fellow shooters in a time of shortages is the sign of a real asshole.

the word "investment" is a dead giveaway.

Rich

So Rich, are you inferring Roger is an asshole?

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
During the last primer shortage loaders without were calling loaders with, HOARDERS.
When components can be had at a good price it is prudent to buy in quantity if you can afford it. It is as much of an investment as if you were buying oil stock, tax free bonds or gold bullion.
It is a real hedge against inflation as metal baring material will never come down if purchased at the right time and price. components such as cases and bullets contain a lot of copper. With the need for copper in Iraq and Afganistan and the large export to China to me it is unlikely we'll ever see the cost of bullets ever come down. A large portion in price will always be determined by availability.
:All these component investments have paid off better than any other stocks or bonds I have money in and they have allowed me to help fellow shooters in need; some of them on this forum.
We also heard the accusation that this HOARDING had driven up the cost of primers. Lack of availability caused by our Governmental action in the mid East was the real culprit.
FWIW I hope this enlightens some of you to what to this point may have been an un-thought-of investment philosophy. roger

Might be careful of what you post esp being in Cali. You might get a visit you don't want because storing the amount of product you are speaking of in ones home is a violation of most cities fire codes..... Might want to check into this...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
just my opinion:

maintaining a year's supply, or stocking up when things are on sale is wise.

stocking up with the notion of profiteering off of your fellow shooters in a time of shortages is the sign of a real asshole.

the word "investment" is a dead giveaway.

Rich

First of all I have never acquired any fire arms related hardware with the idea of reselling it for a profit nor have I done so. Anyone whom I've dealt with on AR can verify that. What you infer, define and conclude I find insulting. You have no idea what I am! But by your own rhetoric you certainly seem to indicate what a lowly astute,and unpleasant individual you really are.
May your life become less miserable. roger

Some food for thought.
Last time we had a primer "shortage" someone on one of the forums I visit(don't remember which one) spoke of having in storage some 360,000 primers.
Hoarding
yes in my book.
If you loaded on a progressive at the rate of 500 rounds per hour it would take 720 hours to use that many primers. That is 720 hours loading. if you loaded 8 hours a day with two fifteen minute breaks and a half hour lunch 7 hours actual loading that would be 103 days.
Then shooting at the rate of 3 per minute, same 8hr. day, would take 285 days.
Now include cleaning at the rate of once every 100 rounds, 30 minutes per session, same 8 hr day is 257 days cleaning.
And I don't know too many people who actually load 500 rounds an hour average. Also many would decry some one shooting at the rate of 3 shots per minute as overheating the barrel. Also the cleaning frequency may be way too often for some , but not often enough for others.
Point is ( yea I finally got to it) It will take a long time to use up that many components. I don't think I have enough time left to do it. Unless I don't do much of anything else.
Off my soap box.

muck

I'm very much into thrift.....and when prices are depressed I have no trouble "investing" in bullets and primers......and as a matter of fact sold at my cost a quite a few bullets and primers to others just to help out last couple years as I'm not shooting as much as I used to.....

Actually I have enough for a small war if need be and use the stach to help others....I never considered it hoarding as it was all purchased when there was no shortages....the winners will be the ones that go to the auction after my demise!!!.....LOL

quote:

Originally posted by muck:
Some food for thought.
Last time we had a primer "shortage" someone on one of the forums I visit(don't remember which one) spoke of having in storage some 360,000 primers.
Hoarding
yes in my book.

In my book also.I wasn't investing more than a normal 5 to 7 year supply on primers. In fact I let buddies have primers when they could not get them with the understanding that they would replace them when they could. Some took over three years and during that time I never mentioned them. roger

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I'm very much into thrift.....and when prices are depressed I have no trouble "investing" in bullets and primers......and as a matter of fact sold at my cost a quite a few bullets and primers to others just to help out last couple years as I'm not shooting as much as I used to.....

Actually I have enough for a small war if need be and use the stach to help others....I never considered it hoarding as it was all purchased when there was no shortages....the winners will be the ones that go to the auction after my demise!!!.....LOL

Very well said, Vapo. Roger also spoke true in my opinion. When one spends most of their life experimenting with guns and ammunition, buying powder 32 pounds or so at a time when it is abundant and cheap is not at all unreasonable in my view.... Same way with buying cartridge cases 300-500 at a time and bullets 2,500 at a time.

I know Roger. He has helped me out once or twice in the past, and he couldn't have made even one cent on what he sent me. And I believe Roger has done more experimenting than a whole lot of people who might see fit to criticize him unjustly.

Over the years, one can't help but build up a pretty sizeable stash if they stock up as prices make it prudent, that's true. BUT, when one goes to load the newest whiz-bang goat-killer, or test loads for a new magic match gun shambering, it is really pleasant not to have to spend $30/lb for powder, or $40 or more per hundred for good bullets, just to find out what works well and what doesn't. Then how about cartridge cases the experimenter can make which are based on brass no longer manufactured regularly, if at all? Hoarding? Or smart? I think it is just plain wise.


It's actually a form of one of today's "in" concepts, the "pay forward" approach to life, espcially when one does what Roger does, and helps others with his foresight.

What goes around comes around. When I moved here two years ago, I had 400+ pounds of powder and 100,000+ primers I didn't want to move from my very rural, very safe, storage area into this gated community in a city of several million people.


So, I gave it away, to a well known rifleman/gunsmith who in turn doled it out to folks who had lost their jobs and had no money for reloading. And even better, at my request he supplied free powder for kids in a community program to learn how to handload, how to shoot, how to hunt, and generally improve and mature their rural lives. Hopefully with their votes someday they will help protect our right to own and shoot guns.

The Red Gods have paid me back for that donation by fixing it so I have met with a bunch of really generous folks here in my new home area. My new favourite gunshop has yet to charge me even one cent for the guns it has both run through its books for me and shipped for me. Better yet, my new gunmsmith has yet to charge me either, though I know that day has to be coming. (And I will be relieved when it does. He is a good man and he and his family need to eat and keep their air conditioner running.)

Rich, you sure could take example from Lloyd on how to be a gentleman. roger

I don't think the "profiteering" side is so bad.
I sold off some bullets once to buy me another rifle. The guy got 6 boxes of the original old style Hornady 500 grn steel jacketed FMJ .458 bullets. No one will ever shoot that many elephants or Cape buffalos. I am sure after he has used his life time share of them the remainder will be passed on to another hunter.

BTW have any of you ever had dealings with guys that hate people profiting off of an odd item now and then. Those same guys are usually impossible to do any sort of deal with. His stuff is always worth a double premium and my stuff is barely worth the cost to ship it.

I subscribe to the teaching of Rudyard Kipling.

“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”
― Rudyard Kipling

Not all that long ago 7.62x39 ammo could be had for $75.00 a case.

Sure wish I had "invested" in more of it then.

For those who did not buy brass, bullets, and primers when they were reasonable, sorry. Don’t blame others for buying at the middle of a bubble.
I thought Gold was overpriced at $400.00 an ounce. I believe it will bust $2,000 when the Euro collapses. Wish I had bought at $400.00.

quote:

There came a time when surplus powders were being sold at great prices. It was also forewarned that the end of surplus powder was at hand. I invested in many of these

Shoot the stuff up. Shoot it up quick. Surplus gunpowders will turn out to be a bad investment if you sit on them.

The reason the military demilled that ammunition was because the gunpowder had reached the end of its shelf life and they were worried about spontaneous combustion.

The shooting community does not understand this, but gunpowder has a shelf life. A rule of thumb is 20 years for double based and 45 years for single based. When the stabilizer content in gunpowder reaches 20% or less, the powder is scrapped.

quote:

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf

Heat, as you can see in the report, will age gunpowder

quote:

The reason the military demilled that ammunition was because the gunpowder had reached the end of its shelf life and they were worried about spontaneous combustion.

Can you show me a single documented incident of this ever happening?

And who stores their gunpowder at 140 degrees?

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:


The reason the military demilled that ammunition was because the gunpowder had reached the end of its shelf life and they were worried about spontaneous combustion.

The shooting community does not understand this, but gunpowder has a shelf life. A rule of thumb is 20 years for double based and 45 years for single based.

Not saying you're wrong but I have a tub of H4831 ( about 13# left )that was first purchased in the late 50s early 60s. There is no acrid odor and when used it performs as good as 40 years ago. I'll bet who ever gets it when I die will have a whole lot of shooting with it.
much of the 8mm ammo ,loaded in the 30s and 40s, I have and have shot, seldom misfires. Those that have seem to be primer duds and they really are few.
I too would like to see some failure reports. roger

In the early '90s I bought from River Valley Ordinance a bunch of what they called M-2 ball powder. According to RVO it had been stored "under closely controlled conditions since 1973." So in '93 that would make it 20 yrs old. Today it's almost 40 yrs old. I'd hazard a guess that it was made prior to '73, so it's probably well past 40 yrs old. It works just as well today as it did when I bought it in '93. I have no idea whether it's single or double powder.

I like to keep a good stock of components on hand.

I guessed what was going to happen in November of 2008 so I made sure I was fully stocked and so I didn't have to buy anything during the panic.

I burn about 18 - 20 lbs of rifle powder per year and I'm just about to make my first primer order since 2008.

I'll order it now before the November electio.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Rich, you sure could take example from Lloyd on how to be a gentleman. roger

AMEN to that!
Him and a few others on the forum like "some" of the benchrest dix and shills here.
On topic;
The last time I checked we still had FREE ENTERPRISE here in the USA, although it HAS been looking very bad and iffy in the past 3 years.


Roger, I honestly think we could include most any manufactured product in "your/our" line of thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
just my opinion:

maintaining a year's supply, or stocking up when things are on sale is wise.

stocking up with the notion of profiteering off of your fellow shooters in a time of shortages is the sign of a real asshole.

the word "investment" is a dead giveaway.

Rich

there are certain signs of a said behavior .. and buying primers when there are some isn't one... and offering to sell them less than the market is charging also isn't one..

but b!tching about someone planning ahead kinda is...

here's your sign

I used to think stock piling of powder and primers was pretty wise after rationing through a few of the "shortages". But more recently I'm starting to wonder what the limit is (at least for my personal situation).

At one point I had what I thought was a nice supply of rifle powder, but I noticed certain kegs had rotten velocity and worse accuracy. With some I noticed the tell-tale smell. They had started to degrade. By the labels I figure they were made in the '70's, some newer, some older. Still in original containers (sealed in most cases) and stored in mild climates.

Never-the-less I'm thinking I should have used a lot of this stuff for fertilizer rather than rifle powder considering the poor accuracy and struggles of trying to get it to shoot.

Also after the primer shortage about 15 years ago - I planned ahead and put up some primers. Then they got flooded in a rather unusual situation. You'd think that couldn't happen with a concrete garage on a hill... but the primers ended up submerged for a period of time.

Oh and I can't forget to mention that I had what I thought was a life-time supply of lead core hunting bullets stocking the shelves. Many of them were the "premium" stuff (Partitions, A-Frames, Trophy Bonded, etc.) and then lead core bullets were made illegal in my area. So rather than being tempted to use them in the areas where I guide... I sold them for pennies-on-the-dollar on ARbay to reinvest with Barnes.

The stock-piling didn't work out to be a real smart move in my case, but to each their own.

When the OPEC countries hoard the oil, the price of gas goes up. Any differences? Oh crap..thats right...free enterprise at work! That's good, right? Guess I better not hear any more bitching about gasoline prices fluctuating for no apparent reason.

Primers, bullets and gun powder went up upon the hoarding/shortage but never came back to their pre-shortage pricing when the shortage subsided.....sound familiar?

Copper/brass shortages..where? The CEO at Rio-Tinto mining would never agree to that concept. There ain't enough armies in the world that could shoot this mining giant out of these minerals.

I've never thought of it as hoarding nor hedging. If I find a component I like, that works well for me, I tend to lay in a good supply. Just to be sure I have some when I need it as I've never lived near a large reloading store. I either had to order the stuff or make a trek to get it.
If I had an abundance of say primers and my friend had none, I would share with him (along with a large ration of shit) but I would never think to sell some to a stranger.

BTW, once a company finds out just how much a customer will pay for an item, they will never go back to the good old days. They charge $4.00/gal for gas, and then drop the price to $3.90/gal and everyone hollers "Wow, cheap gas" and start planning road trips.

Here we never had any shortages powder and primers are on the shelf only Norma and VV usually.

Metal prices are high and we have several new mines opening.

Random thoughts...

Many people I know that have been shooters for a long time, have 2 different sets of ammo "stuff". By ammo stuff I mean a combination of loaded factory ammo and/or reloading componets.

First they have enough "stuff" on hand to last them the rest of their life, if TODAY, all sources of ammo, and componets were cut off.

Many people call this their "Bad Days Ammo".

Then they have from 3 to 10 years of "ammo stuff" on hand to do all the shooting/hunting they do on a normal basis.

This can vary a lot, from a normal deer hunter, that shoots less than 50 rounds a year, to a person that hunts 200 days a year, or a Competitive Shooter that shoots and practices several thousand rounds a month...

The idea here being you have enough "stuff" on hand to ride out any shortages that occur, for what ever reason except a total "ban".

Your "Bad Days Stash" is put back incase of a total ban...

It is kinda like the fuel tank on your vehicle.

The first time you fuel up, fill up the tank...

Then NEVER let it get below half a tank.

It is only and Investment if you sell it and make money. Buy low and selling high is the best way.

Making money is a good thing. It is the american way.

If you have no plans on selling and no plans for using it up then it is hoarding.

For an active shooter thousands of rounds a year or 10000s of thousands of rounds a year.

Is very doable. I wish I would have brought more when the prices were low. A 8lb keg of powder really doesn't last that long.

Dam where are the days of 8 dollar bags of shot a couple of tons of the stuff would have been great.

At one and eight oz loads that only 28000 rounds my late brother in law a high end trap shooter shot that up in a year.

Thats more like 10 years for me then what at 35 dollars a bag now. I should have brought another couple of tons.

Or 8 dollar a brick 22 ect ect.

Figure out how much you shoot how much you need buy as low as you can.

Remember every time you pull the trigger a primer,powder and projectile is gone.

If you pull triggers a lot, one needs a lot to replace them.

quote:

stocking up with the notion of profiteering off of your fellow shooters in a time of shortages is the sign of a real asshole.

the word "investment" is a dead giveaway.

One could say the same about buying any shooting item for a good price and making money on it.

Making money is the American way money comes in money goes out keeps the world turning.

Where in his post does Bartsche make refrence to selling supplies for a profit, much less taking advantage of someone?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Where in his post does Bartsche make refrence to selling supplies for a profit, much less taking advantage of someone?

He didn't....this is not the character of Roger.....he'd help out his fellow man without a dime in his pocket.....this is from ISS .....just plain bullspit!

quote:

someone on one of the forums I visit(don't remember which one) spoke of having in storage some 360,000 primers

This was Saeed....

quote:

someone on one of the forums I visit(don't remember which one) spoke of having in storage some 360,000 primers

This was Saeed....

Huh, Saeed only buys enough for a week at a time!

quote:

Not saying you're wrong but I have a tub of H4831 ( about 13# left )that was first purchased in the late 50s early 60s. There is no acrid odor and when used it performs as good as 40 years ago. I'll bet who ever gets it when I die will have a whole lot of shooting with it.
much of the 8mm ammo ,loaded in the 30s and 40s, I have and have shot, seldom misfires. Those that have seem to be primer duds and they really are few.
I too would like to see some failure reports.

What is the shelf life of gunpowder?

What makes it good bad?

Why did the military scrap that powder to begin with?

It it was good to go for decades hence, why did they get rid of it?

Search the topic of "Insensitive Munitions", gunpowder gets old. It is a high energy compound that breaks down to a low energy compound.

As it does, the burn rate changes, which will lead to pressure spikes.

That old ammunition, you are playing Russian roulette with that stuff.

Primers are different, they just dud. Gunpowder, that is the dangerous stuff.

I found articles of blown guns in my review of American Rifleman magazines from the 60's. Old clumped powder found in the surviving rounds.

Anyone who has worked around rocket motors has "stories". Blown motors. Most solid rocket motor propellants are nitrocelluose based, may have different binders, and aluminum, but the stuff gets old, breaks down, ka boom!

I talked to a guy who had inspected rocket motors that were old, from the 40's. These things were going in periodic inspections and rebuilds. I suspect these motors had gone through several. He saw nitroglycerine blisters on top of the solid propellant. Apparently that stuff was scrapped off. Nitroglycerine migrates in double based propellants, and that includes gunpowder. It gets to the surface and spikes pressure because the surface is rich in NG. I was freaked when I heard of workers scrapping off NG as that stuff is unstable, and I told the guy, keep away from that place.

There are deaths you never heard about. One facility, a Pershing motor was in a test stand and the side broke. Big chunks of propellant fell out. Two workers were sent in with a wire bow saw to cut the propellant into smaller chunks and carry the stuff out. Since the workers were incinerated in the fire, along with everything around, they really don’t know what happened.
You won’t find this if you google it.



Pershing II Missile, all 16,500 pounds of it.

Old powder has its issues.

They Navy was using WW2 propellant in that Battleship turret explosion that killed 60 sailors.

You won’t find any of the propellant explosions that have occurred in the US, except maybe the one in the 20’s at Picatinny arsenal.

You can google Ammo Dump explosions and find that world wide, about one per month is going up. Old propellant, gunpowder, rocket motor, etc, catching fire.

Just picked up 40 lbs of WC844 and I whant 40 more

Rocket Motors? I'm not loading rocket motors.

Can you give me a specific example where one of these ammo dump explosions was attributed to the spontanious combustion of aged small arms powder?

In the Picitinany explosion of 1926, lightning struck 600 tons of TnT....

The Iowa explosion was the result of an Over Ram.

I don't see where either one of these incidents supports your thesis.

quote:

You won’t find any of the propellant explosions that have occurred in the US, except maybe the one in the 20’s at Picatinny arsenal.

Acutally the USS Mississippi had 2 turret explosions years apart. One of my uncles was a turret crew man and had the duty of removing the charcoaled bodies after the Makin Island explosion.

BTW the Mississippi fired the last salvo of a battleship at another ship.

Interesting thread. I vowed to never get in a pinch for primers again, after the last shortage. I have about 8-10 years worth on the shelf and every time I use a 1000, I buy another 1000. Powder and brass some story. I am a little light on bullets and shot, maybe 4-5 years on the shelf, but I am working that up also.

I do this soley to be sure I will be able to shoot when ever I want for as long as I want.

quote:

Rocket Motors? I'm not loading rocket motors.

Smokeless propellants are smokeless propellants, the percentage of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine are different and aluminum is added to increase the power output. Same chemistry

quote:

Can you give me a specific example where one of these ammo dump explosions was attributed to the spontanious combustion of aged small arms powder?

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/...pellant_stab_eq.html

The U.S. military has stockpiles of ammunition, new and old, that can present safety hazards. The primary ingredient of the propellant used in these rounds, nitrocellulose, can deteriorate with age and become prone to autoignition. To avoid the destruction that could occur from the self-ignition of this propellant, the Department of Defense (DOD) has established a program for testing ammunition stocks to determine the thermal stability of the nitrocellulose propellants they contain…..

Unfortunately, as robust as it is, our propellant surveillance system has not put an end to autoignition accidents. Seven propellant autoignition incidents, some involving 100,000 pounds or more of powder, occurred at Army installations in the 1980s and 1990s. Although it has been 10 years since the last accident, constant vigilance is required.

You would have to be an insider to find more specifics on the auto ignition events. But the fact of the matter is, seven occurred and you will not find anything more specific in the public literature because the powers that be don’t care to make that information public.

quote:

The Iowa explosion was the result of an Over Ram.

Why would powder ignite on an over ram? I compress relatively new powder all the time, called compressed charges. So why would 50 year old Navy powders ignite if over rammed?

I may be the victim of rusty memory but didn't the large guns on war ships use black powder even as late as the 1990s? If so some one is confusing oranges with soda pop. roger

Slamfire that was a good read. Here's a few things I found interesting:

When a tested propellant lot’s “days to fume” reach a defined minimum level, all quantities of that lot, wherever stored, are ordered destroyed.
Not sold into surplus, destroyed.

"This is not the case with propellants in fixed or semi-fixed cartridges. The Army considers such propellants so unlikely to autoignite in an uploaded-round configuration that the propellants are not included in the stockpile test program, and the propellants are not closely tracked. "

OK, we don't have to worry about loaded ammo.

And the rest of the pull down powder is tested for stability. If it fails, it's destroyed. If it passed, it can be sold to guy like me that prefer the discounted price.

Reloading a brass cartridge is different then loading a Mark 7 16inch/50 gun.

Heres a quick read that supports your theory that there were problems with the powder on the Iowa:


By canceling the overhaul on all guns, Moosally got his ship out of the yard a week early. The Iowa left the shipyard in August 1988.

Master Chief James Hickman had been warned by Hill, the ship's gunner, not to take back on board the gunpowder for the 16-inchers that had been stored by the Navy on barges. The powder was antiquated. The Navy hadn't manufactured any of it since 1952, and some of the propellant dated back to the 1930s. A large percentage of it had been faultily rebagged and was potentially lethal.

Components of the powder could become unstable if stored under hot and humid conditions. But the Navy failed to monitor the temperatures or humidity on the barges where the powder was stored from April to August 1988.

According to Navy Manual OP5, the official guide on the storage of munitions, improperly stored powder begins to decompose at temperatures above 70 degrees. At 100 degrees, the decomposition is relatively high and at 110 degrees, it is dangerous. The IOWA's powder was subjected to temperatures of up to 125 degrees on the unventilated, aluminum-covered barges on the York River.

Yet Hickman disregarded Hill's admonition and much of this "smokeless" powder arrived back on the ship coated with mold. Some 2,100 bags smelled strongly of ether. The Navy doesn't like to intermix powder lots, because they burn at different rates, causing the initial velocity of the shell to vary radically and make accurate fire control virtually impossible. But despite this well-stated policy, Hickman allowed powder lots to be intermingled when they came aboard ship.

Here's some other interesting excerpts:
Some 75 deficiencies were documented in the magazines alone.

The Navy would later state that only 13 of the sailors in the turret were qualified for the positions they were filling.

though he had very little experience at sea, he was promoted to master chief, and he returned to active duty at that level. Skelley wanted to complete an unauthorized gunnery experiment that he first began in November 1987 and that Cmdr. Kocmich, the weapons officer, had expressly forbidden him ever to undertake again. He was going to use D-846 powder charges to propel 2,700-pound projectiles.

He intended to do this despite a prominent notice stenciled on every D-846 canister, saying, "WARNING: Do Not Use with 2,700 lb. Projectile."...D-846 was considered fine when shooting 1,900-pound shells, but the Navy feared that this faster-burning powder could build up too much pressure behind 2,700-pound shells and cause the barrel to burst.

Another interesting note is the specific mention of hydraulic discrepancies that had not been fixed in the turrets....



None of my suprlus powder is moldy, I don't store it on an unventilated, aluminum-covered barge at 125 degree, and it's tested by the U.S. military before it's offered for sale to the public.

Also I load with one of these:


and not one of these:

And the powder is loaded with a hydraulic ram:

I did find this from the Propellant Management Guide:

PROPELLANT MANAGEMENT GUIDE DECEMBER 2003


1-4. BACKGROUND
a. Propellants and propelling charges that we store, transport and maintain warrant our special attention. Among commonly stored energetic materials, only nitrate ester-based propellants (principally nitrocellulose-based ones) have the propensity to spontaneously combust (self-ignite, autoignite) without warning while sitting in storage; catastrophic losses can result. Artillery and Small Arms propellants are perhaps the most dangerous materials that Army installations routinely handle and store. Propellant can be unpredictable, decomposing into an unstable condition within four or five years of manufacture. Inadequate propellant safety programs have contributed to several self-ignition incidents at military and commercial installations in the United States and abroad.

b. When grains, flakes, sticks or sheets of propellant inside a container ignite, sufficient heat and flame is produced to ignite the remaining propellant material in that container. If unstable propellant is present in even minimal quantities (e.g., a single container), it might combust and could lead to ignition of the entire contents of the storage structure. Propellant burns at a very rapid rate in a process that is known as deflagration. Deflagration differs significantly from detonation in that deflagration involves very rapid combustion that takes place on the surface of the propellant. Detonation, on the other hand, occurs due to a different process that involves a shock wave moving at supersonic speeds through the explosive material, thereby causing its nearly immediate decomposition. Simply put, deflagration operates on the basis of heat transfer, while detonation operates on the basis of a shock wave.

c. During the period 1984 through 1997, seven propellant autoignition events occurred at U.S. Army Materiel Command (AMC) installations.
1. 1984: Lake City AAP
IMR powder that was only 5 years old autoignited and the above ground magazine & its contents were destroyed. More than 100,000 lbs of powder deflagrated.
2. 1984: Lake City AAP
The same lot of IMR powder, a fragment quantity isolated and saved for critical production testing, autoignited two months after the previous fire. Only a small quantity of powder was lost, but another magazine was destroyed.
3. 1985: Blue Grass Army Depot
The local-stocks storage magazine use for demilitarization activities contained high explosives material as well as unmonitored M10 propellant powder. Autoignition of the powder and its resulting deflagration gradually ignited the other energetic materials present. The earth covered magazine and its contents were destroyed.
4. 1987: Lone Star AAP
Benite was stored in a heated magazine so that it could be temperature conditioned prior to loading into production items. The building became overheated which accelerated the rate of decomposition of the benite to a point that autoignition occurred. The structure and contents were lost.
5. 1989: Hawthorne Army Depot
8-inch, 55-caliber propelling charges loaded with single-base propellant autoignited in an earth-covered magazine more than one year after the Navy ordered the lot destroyed due to low stability. The magazine contents of 30,715 lbs of various propellants were destroyed, and the magazine was heavily damaged.
2 PROPELLANT MANAGEMENT GUIDE DECEMBER 2003
6. 1996: Red River Army Depot
Expulsion charge assemblies for large caliber artillery rounds, each charge filled with only one ounce of M10 propellant and stored 250 to a box, autoignited. The earth-covered magazine and its contents were totally destroyed.
7. 1997: Hawthorne Army Depot
M9 flake propellant bags that had been removed from 81MM mortar rounds were bulk-packed and placed into long-term storage. A container of unstable propellant autoignited, and all 20,000 lbs of propellant inside the earth-covered magazine were destroyed. The magazine was severely damaged. Value of contents lost was more than $3,000,000, while the cost to repair the magazine was $164,000.

d. Accidental autoignition of propellant occurs at other than Army facilities, too. During the same time period as the incidents above, propellant self-ignition accidents have occurred at Navy facilities and at privately owned industrial storage sites. If you consider the number of accidents versus the limited number of locations that store artillery and small arms propellants, you begin to realize that the chances of having an accident happen at your installation are not as unlikely as you may have imagined.