quote:

OK, we don't have to worry about loaded ammo.

Actually, don't count on that. I learned about gunpowder aging from a Navy Insensitive Munitions expert and he does not believe in the "five inch rule". He investigated incidents, wrote the action reports, and when we googled them, they don't show up in the public literature.

His position on the five inch rule is that it was invented by folks who got promotions and cash awards by claiming that the case heat sink prevents the gunpowder inside the case from auto igniting.

If you can extend the shelf life of a billion dollars of ammunition by five, ten years, by “handwaving”, well, you have “saved” the military a billion dollars, and you get richly rewarded. The originators of the pseudo science collect their rewards until it becomes very obvious that they are wrong. But they get to keep their money.

Since everything goes poof in a ammo dump explosion, it is hard to prove that the hole in the ground was started by one tiny cartridge case.

Still, whether you believe in the five inch rule, fixed ammunition ages, the gunpowder in the case ages, and that is where surplus pulldown IMR4895 and WC powders came from. Old cartridges junked because the military did not want them anymore.

quote:

and it's tested by the U.S. military before it's offered for sale to the public.

If they suspect the gunpowder in the case is bad, there are plenty of chemical tests to determine how much stabilizer is in the powder.

Gunpowder is scrapped when the stabilizer content is less than 20%.

Did your surplus powder come with a shelf life warranty?

quote:

None of my suprlus powder is moldy, I don't store it on an unventilated, aluminum-covered barge at 125 degree,

Where was it stored before you got it? What was the temperature storage conditions for the 20-40 some odd years before you put it in your nice airconditioned house?

If it came out of Sweden, or the Canadian Tundra, that powder will hardly aged at all.

If it came out of bunkers in the Southwest, it got cooked.

Remember all the problems with Indian and Paki ammunition? I heard about heat waves in India, they have days which the low is 120 F.

Another comment:

Rule #2 of Government is to minimize scandal.

So you see how the blame shifting occurred with the turret explosions?

Instead of fussing up and admitting that the gunpowder was old, that it had been stored in hot environments where the powder would decompose faster, and the surface was thus sensitized, the Navy put the blame on “over ramming”. The guy was off by ¼” of an inch.

Look that the equipment, I think ¼” is pretty good.

I am of the opinion that the Iowa explosion was caused by sensitized gunpowder. And that the Navy men who died in that explosion were vilified by the Navy to protect the Navy from scandal.

quote:

1. 1984: Lake City AAP
IMR powder that was only 5 years old autoignited and the above ground magazine & its contents were destroyed. More than 100,000 lbs of powder deflagrated.
2. 1984: Lake City AAP
The same lot of IMR powder, a fragment quantity isolated and saved for critical production testing, autoignited two months after the previous fire. Only a small quantity of powder was lost, but another magazine was destroyed.

Ok, I'd say those two qualify for what I was asking. All IMR powders are made for small arms, and are of a type reloaders would use.

I find it interesting that in both of these cases the powder was only 5 years old, and from the same lot. I wonder if something was wrong with this powder?

Thanks for the information. It should serve as a good reminder to all of us to keep an eye on our powder. 5 years isn't very long to a reloader. I seem to remember someone on one of the forums, maybe this one, that had some cannister IMR powder that started to smell bad in a very short time (few years).

"5. 1989: Hawthorne Army Depot
8-inch, 55-caliber propelling charges loaded with single-base propellant autoignited in an earth-covered magazine more than one year after the Navy ordered the lot destroyed due to low stability. The magazine contents of 30,715 lbs of various propellants were destroyed, and the magazine was heavily damaged."

Hmm Like to to hear more about this story. the 8/55 rifles were used from 1925 to 1975. I'd be curious how old it was when it was determined unstable.

"d. Accidental autoignition of propellant occurs at other than Army facilities, too. During the same time period as the incidents above, propellant self-ignition accidents have occurred at Navy facilities and at privately owned industrial storage sites. If you consider the number of accidents versus the limited number of locations that store artillery and small arms propellants, you begin to realize that the chances of having an accident happen at your installation are not as unlikely as you may have imagined."

Ok, that's good advice, and I'll take it under advisement.
I'll continue to use surplus powder, but I will keep a closer eye on it.

I kind of remember something now, about some guys doing some tests with the powder from the Iowa. They were dropping it from a height, (off a crain if I remember correctly), and were able to get the powder bags to go off, just by dropping them. At the time I had always looked upon this as evidence for the overram. But it's reasonable to ask, how much more dangerous would the entire ramming process be with improperly stored, sensatised powder?

I'd always blamed the Iowa incidnet on:
Poor leadership
Poor training
Poor maintence
Hubris
and an overram.

But now I'm inclined to agree the powder was also a likley factor.

quote:

I'll continue to use surplus powder, but I will keep a closer eye on it.

That is all I was trying to do.

Based on what you read in Gun Magazines I was lead to believe that gunpowder has an infinite shelf life, and as it ages, it becomes benign.

That was false.

Now that I am older and much more skeptical, I realize that Gunwriters are shills for the industry, sock puppets really, and if they happen to have degree in French or Journalism, they are over educated for their jobs.

Their job is product promotion. Have no doubt that sales are tracked after each printed infomercial and only those which consistently push sales numbers get those all expense paid writer’s symposiums, plant tours, hunting trips, free equipment and future commissions.

As the industry is only about profit, no one has the slightest incentive to point out to the public that old ammunition has risks and that gunpowder has a shelf life. If the general shooting public knew, they might get picky about buying old stuff, and that would cost profits.

Just recently I was reading in Rifle Magazine, (Must have been the March as I have tossed it already) and there was shill Dave Scovill addressing in print the question of the lifetime of gunpowder. He went into detail on some can of powder he had lugged around the country, the can must have been from the 50’s, it was still good, therefore gunpowder must last forever. I don’t know if he exactly said forever, but the impression was there. Considering these guys only have to tweak the industry arm stuck up their large colon (the hand of which powers the movement of their jaws) to get expert technical information, I just don’t understand how they can be so clueless. Either Dave Scovill is misinformed, stupid, incompetent, or evil.

Surplus military gunpowder and surplus military ammunition is at the end of its shelf life and people should look at their usage, the risk of it all going bad within a short time, and pay accordingly, or not at all.

But don’t think it has the shelf life of new gunpowder. It does not.

I buy primers everytime I can

I have a life time supply of brass but the three consumables is up to my shooting ups and downs

I only see a possible significance between what we use to reload and the two incidence with IMR powder. Even here ,what IMR powder was involved?
Surplus 4895 was known to deteriorate but only because processing was shortcuted ! One or two final rinses were neglected. I had 8# of this stuff that I used for fertilizer and when mixed with water turned into nitrous or nitric acid. It took two years for my lawn to come back.

Is there really some connection between the auto ignitions and what we use , how we store it and some time interval? Does anyone know of any reloader that has had a similar auto ignition?

These are all great take notice stories but are they relevant to reloaders storing the type powders we use to any meaningful degree?
Many of us ,I'm sure have cartridges that are loaded dating back before the turn of the century. I have never heard of any of these sitting somewhere and going bang!

Can anyone provide documentation of any reloader , distributor or vendor ever having an auto ignition problem with any aged surplus or commercial powder for that matter?
Military , cover my ass , reports
often are not factual and more than not are a cover up for some SNAFU.Besides the examples given may not have much meaning in the rifle man's world. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:


Primers, bullets and gun powder went up upon the hoarding/shortage but never came back to their pre-shortage pricing when the shortage subsided.....sound familiar?

Copper/brass shortages..where? The CEO at Rio-Tinto mining would never agree to that concept. There ain't enough armies in the world that could shoot this mining giant out of these minerals.

Woodrow, don't slam me for posting this but the dollar has been declining in value ever since the last shortage. It takes more dollars to buy damn near anything. I can't think of anything that is cheaper now than then can you?

quote:

Can anyone provide documentation of any reloader , distributor or vendor ever having an auto ignition problem with any aged surplus or commercial powder for that matter?
Military , cover my ass , reports
often are not factual and more than not are a cover up for some SNAFU.Besides the examples given may not have much meaning in the rifle man's world. roger

Bartsche: I don’t think you are evil, but I run into this all the time. Its called denial. Good people buying what they think is a lifetime supply of powder, at a very reasonable price, only to find that it is not what they thought it would be.

Lets see, anger, denial, and

I am not going to make this my mission in life, to spend the time and effort in making you more miserable.

But if you want to research this yourself, a good place to start is www.dtic.mil where you will find things like this document, which starts out with the pre amble:

quote:

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf

This was a good one, used to be on DTIC but it moved:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/66...-Explosives-Urbanski


Let me add this, if the concern is about powder catching on fire.

If your powder can ever looks like this, you see reddish fumes, the powder smells bitter, in my opinion, the powder is unsafe to keep around.

Dump it.







changed the www.dtic.mil link, somehow a comma got on the end and the link would not open. Maybe it will work now?

Back to hoarding again,
I bought lots of primers as it was in the news that the government wanted to change the way primers were made as to have a shelf life, so I bought.......popular powders and cartridge brass supplies dried up........so I bought. Rimfire 22 ammunition hard to find........so I bought.
As maybe there might not be anymore, certainly not for resale.

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe I once read that the principle supplier of IMR powder DURING and after WWII was E I DuPont was it not? (IMR 4895)

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
[

Bartsche: I don’t think you are evil, but I run into this all the time. Its called denial. Good people buying what they think is a lifetime supply of powder, at a very reasonable price, only to find that it is not what they thought it would be.

Lets see, anger, denial, and

I am not going to make this my mission in life, to spend the time and effort in making you more miserable.

Not evil, angry , in denial, or miserable.I shall try not to waste your time any more. I must say, you certainly have a way with words. The web site you suggested I go to would not open roger

DuPont, the first maker of black powder in the New World, owned IMR for a long time.

I'm not sure if that is still the case or not.

to Mr investment hoarder bartsche,

a friggin' kalifornian using the word "Investment" talking about anything is funny.

One does not make investments to lose money, or hope to break even down the road.

Any of you posters plan to sell any of the commodities you bought as "Investments" over the past decades plan to sell them for what you paid for them?

If so, I am entertain swapping federal reserve note of equal face value for what you paid for most of your investment portfolio.

bartsche, you live in kal, there is nothing I can post that will add to that constant misery.

regards,

Rich
living the dream in Idaho!

Enjoy your life,Rich! roger

Rich, some of us use the term investment in a figurative manner.

I'm very happy that I "invested" in sks ammo at $75.00 a case several years ago. I gave up the opportunity cost of an alternative use of that $75.00, and gave up it's time value, anticipating a possible price increase. The Market was awash with excess ammo, and I help it clear, at the prevailing price. When I shoot this ammo, I"ll get an extra level of enjoyment, knowing I bought it at 1/4 the current market price.

Rich, please, do me a favor, take a deep breath, sip some burbon, smoke a good cigar, and relax a little bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Rich, some of us use the term investment in a figurative manner.

I'm very happy that I "invested" in sks ammo at $75.00 a case several years ago. I gave up the opportunity cost of an alternative use of that $75.00, and gave up it's time value, anticipating a possible price increase. The Market was awash with excess ammo, and I help it clear, at the prevailing price. When I shoot this ammo, I"ll get an extra level of enjoyment, knowing I bought it at 1/4 the current market price.

Rich, please, do me a favor, take a deep breath, sip some burbon, smoke a good cigar, and relax a little bit.

Yeah, and maybe now and then you ought to think about engaging your brain before putting your mouth in gear. Sweet dreams.

quote:

Any of you posters plan to sell any of the commodities you bought as "Investments" over the past decades plan to sell them for what you paid for them?

If so, I am entertain swapping federal reserve note of equal face value for what you paid for most of your investment portfolio.

I am sure you would.
Would you care to buy it for what it will bring today?

Whats wrong with making money.

If one is smart enough to do so more power to them.

I have brought,sold and traded items for years making money on them is even better.

So, if I "invest in the future" when would I sell to make a profit. It would be hard to sell in the past, cause, thats already gone. If I invest in the future and sell in the future, why didnt I just buy in the future to begin with ... it's all so confusing.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Whats wrong with making money.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with this.....what's wrong is the creation of an artificial market (hoarding)

quote:

...what's wrong is the creation of an artificial market (hoarding)

I'm still not sure why this would be an artificial market vapo. The companies are going to produce when and what sells. It keeps the workers in jobs, and in the long run does all us shooters good as they turn a profit and stay in buisness. If you run out of something, you didnt have enough on hand. A dry spell only lasts so long before the companies catch up again. I really dont see a big issue if the "hoarder" throws them out or uses them, he paid his/her money to do with what they will.
I have primers given to me that the little old lady kept in the unheated garage for 20-40 yrs going by the labels. I only use them for fireforming cases, but have yet to not have one go off. I have some original H4831 packed in paper bags inside a drum that still works like a charm. If someone bought a lifetime supply today, and used it or not, who is it really affecting other then the person who buys 100 primers at a time when he runs out. What am I missing here??

quote:

What am I missing here??

None of us alone can create an artificial market...it takes thousands of folks hoarding.

At the peak of primer shortages the backorders for primers was in the many billions.....not a few thousand!

What happens is that some (usually) government issue comes up and folks smell a shortage of primers.....and thousands go out to stock up and some stock up times a hundred......thus creating an artificial market.....the primers are out there but removed from the normal buying channels and the manufacturers can't keep up because the shortage creates a buying frenzy and everything they make is gobbled up.....very few of these primers are actually going to be used for the normal purpose....they are simply insurance stocks.....I still have ten thousand primers from the shortages of the time when a rumor was going around that primers would have to be made of a decaying material such that they had a shelf life of only three years.....remember those days?....but I waited until the shortage was over and then bought several thousands of primers to avoid being short the next time.....and they was never for sale and I haven't purchased a primer for many years.

Long term the hoarder loses....short term the normal shooter loses as he can't find primers to buy.

The companies making primers lose as they must pay overtime to catch up to demand and then when the shortage is over they lay off workers as no one is buying them.....it's just a bad situation.....and it's all caused by the "me" attitude

Remember the Nixon years of shortages?....wage and price controls?....even a threat of a shortage of toilet paper was enough to clear the shelves of toilet paper.....now that was a $hitty deal and there never was a real shortage until it was rumored.....imagine the effects of millions of folks deciding to keep a 300 gallon barrel of gasoline at their homes.....

VD, I disagree with you position about an "artificial" market.

One component of the demand for any product is the future expecations of price and avaliability. In the case of the degrading primers, the threat was real. Real legislation was proposed to eliminate the long term storage of primers. If the intentions of the gun grabbing democrates were not real, the expectations of shooters would not have changed, and prices would have stayed the same.

Fortunatly for us, the Primer manufacters convinced the politicians their plan would not work at the current technology level, and at least for now, it's been shelved.

Now that everyone is stocked up, we SHOULD be seeing the other side of the bubble. The problem is an oligopolic market. Although prices have dropped from the top, they remain double what there were 2000. Unless one of the big primer makers is dumb enough to start a price war, which I do not for see, prices will remain high. Our one hope of relive in this area comes from the Russians. Wolf and Tula are selling primers close to 2000 levels, actually about 10% above them, which is reasonable considering inflation. If either of these are able to ramp up, and start importing in sufficent quanaties, and we start switching in sufficent quanitites, then prices from the domestics will also fall.

As for as your Gas example goes, well, it's already being done, but it's done with futures. Where I do agree with you, is that the low margin requirements of oil and gas futures distort the price mechanism, and leads bubbles. If we were to increase the futures requirements on oil to a level more consistant with those on stocks, over a peiored of time of course, it would remove much of the speculation, and probably lead to a more even price level.

In any event, I sure like shooting my primers I bought at half the current market price. I just wish I had a wider variety.

PS, here's my prediction on componet prices.

If Romney wins, we will see significant reductions in prices in 2-3 years.

If Oobie wins, we are all screwed on this front. The fear will continue, he may work to ban the importation of components, and prices will remain high. So long as the Republicans hold the house however, prices will not become obsurd. This will prevent them from trying to use things like microstamping to outlaw home casting, and reloading ect, and eliviate those fears.

quote:

PS, here's my prediction on componet prices.

If Romney wins, we will see significant reductions in prices in 2-3 years.

I'll take odds on this bet.....it ain't going to happen!

quote:

I'll take odds on this bet.....it ain't going to happen!

If that's what you believe, you better be buying all the components you will need for another 4-12 years. In a second term, we would get to see Oobie "evolve" on the second amendment....and he wouldn't be "evolving" in our direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
just my opinion:

maintaining a year's supply, or stocking up when things are on sale is wise.

stocking up with the notion of profiteering off of your fellow shooters in a time of shortages is the sign of a real asshole.

the word "investment" is a dead giveaway.

Rich

Without companies and people profiting on our shooting hobby it would be dead. I hope they continue to take risks and be profitable in providing us all with what we love. This anti-capitalist movement is mind blowing to me.

quote:

This anti-capitalist movement is mind blowing to me.

This has nothing to do with capitalism.....when a company starts a business to make (for example) bullets such as Sierra, they take a serious risk that the customer will disintegrate.....go elsewhere as there's competition in capitalism. They make a product and conquer the tasks of distribution, legalities in states and other places, labor stoppages, raw material availability and a long host of potential business risks.....They put their reputation at stake every time they sell a product (quality) and price their product to compete and create enough inventory to insure adequate delivery times.....this is no easy task and many fail at it and are no longer in business.....this isn't at all what's being discussed here.

Hoarding creates black markets and this isn't capitalism at all!

quote:

Hoarding creates black markets and this isn't capitalism at all!

How many "hoarders" are out there hawking their supply for big $.? I know folks with large supplies, and will sell a few to friends like the original poster has done. But NONE have them to try to make big bucks from the have-nots. I think the ones that may be out there doing so are very,very few. I have no proof of that, but if you have proof they are, steer me to the article please.

I think the other part of this is..... primers are not food or fuel oil etc. Does someone who runs out of large pistol primers doomed if they cant find some cheap? I doubt it. Like I said, wait a little and they will come back around, or pay a little extra from one of these black market hawkes and go easy on useing them until they are back available. Unless the military or cops are going without, it's an inconveniance at most.

Blackmarkets are usually created because of attempts to thwart or place inhibitively heavy taxes on free enterprise.

theback40,

you need to get out more.

Reloading component shortages the past five or six years is a contrived marketing program to boost manufacturers ROI.

Do you, and the rest of you find it odd that we only seem to have shortages while a dimocrat is president?

I saw shops, less than a year ago, selling Federal 215 primers for $60 per thousand, and nearly every shop was placing limits on how many you could buy. I went in to one last week, same place had Federal 215's for $35 per thousand. I asked the owner how that could be, and he would never quite get backed into the corner solidly enough to admit it was all capitalist greed on his part.

It is a very close race to decide who wants to screw you the worst, the component manufacturers or liberal dimocrats.

Arms manufacturers can't do that, you already have all the fireams (most of us) that you want, and you buy/sell/trade too much for them to rake you over the coals.

quote:

you need to get out more.

Cant be.
Componants have gone up,and down, but there was never a time when I couldnt get them here. I also always have plenty on hand so when it's a false market I dont need to buy them.

quote:

eloading component shortages the past five or six years is a contrived marketing program to boost manufacturers ROI.

This is going to out pace the HotCore thread!!

I try not to hoard too many high explosives. Just my policy.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
theback40,

you need to get out more.

Reloading component shortages the past five or six years is a contrived marketing program to boost manufacturers ROI.

Do you, and the rest of you find it odd that we only seem to have shortages while a dimocrat is president?

I saw shops, less than a year ago, selling Federal 215 primers for $60 per thousand, and nearly every shop was placing limits on how many you could buy. I went in to one last week, same place had Federal 215's for $35 per thousand. I asked the owner how that could be, and he would never quite get backed into the corner solidly enough to admit it was all capitalist greed on his part.

It is a very close race to decide who wants to screw you the worst, the component manufacturers or liberal dimocrats.

Arms manufacturers can't do that, you already have all the fireams (most of us) that you want, and you buy/sell/trade too much for them to rake you over the coals.

ISS,
There is nothing contrived about the market that I participate in. I buy low priced components to shoot and have been for more than 30 years. At one time it looked like the nation quit bothering with reloading because components were sold at give away prices. My only problem is I sometimes found them in calibers I didn't shoot or I just did not shoot them up fast enough. I bought them anyway.

quote:

Do you, and the rest of you find it odd that we only seem to have shortages while a dimocrat is president?

Because the dim propose laws such as microstamping, weapons bans, and primers with a shelf life. It was Nancy Pelosi, the Democrate Speaker of the House who said, "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in.." and Diane Feinstin who when asked about a new assult weapons ban said "I'll pick the time and place, no question about it"

In addition, we are only one justice away from loosing our 5-4 majority on Heller, and McDonald.

When the Democrates are in power, it effects both the supply and demand. Demand goes up because of future expectation regarding price and scarcity, long term supply falls because less firms are willing to take the risk investing in assets that may become worthless with the stroke of a democrate pen.

It's all pure, simple economics Rich. It just doesn't get much simpler or fundamental then that.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
[QUOTE]
Dump it.

Ahhh....did you store that is a cool dry place??

What I buy, when I buy it, how much I buy, and what I want to do with it is my business. As long as I don't endanger myself or someone else, it is called "private property." If you Bloomberg nannys want to impose "Big GulP" restrictions on me you can shove it.

I don't buy excessively, but I buy and store enough to support my reloading addiction for at least 3 years. I have been through too many feast and famine episodes to act otherwise.

Barstooler