The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading OAL & "Off-the Lands"Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| OAL & "Off-the Lands" | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Is a consistent OAL a myth? I've read many times how important it is to set a bullet ".0015" off the lands" - or whatever distance is it. That .001" can make all the difference in the world with accuracy. A thousandth of an inch...changing the accuracy dramatically. OAL is typically measured from the tip of the bullet to the base of the case. And, this measurement for OAL works as long as the bullet hasn't deformed in any way. Surely the plastic tipped bullets are more consistent in this measurement. But isn't the real needed measurement from the shoulder of the bullet measured exactly where the shoulder would first contact the rifling? How, exactly, would you measure that? I recently tried to experiment with OAL and discovered, much to my chagrin, that it was IMPOSSIBLE to accurately measure the distance to the lands because I didn't have a consistent means of measuring the OAL. Bullet tip deformation on Nosler Partitions was worth nominally .05" - .1" of variation. It dawns on me that I would need to use either different bullets (ballistic tips) or a different means of measuring the OAL (something from the bullet shoulder) than I currently do. Of course, this all could be meaningless synthetic frippery. I'm not a benchrest shooter. Or, more accurately, I don't own any benchrest rifles that would be worthy of such an endeavor. I have hunting rifles. And that, in and unto itself, begs the question of "why bother" - a .30" group isn't going to kill dear any deader than the consistent sub 1" group I currently use. So, what ARE the tricks to OAL and seating bullets "x-distance" off the lands? (and here's the back story of all this) I've been working up loads for my Ruger No. 1 in 7x57. I've found at least one "go-to" load with the Speer 145 HC and 50.0 gr. of H4350. It shoot's very consistently .75 moa at 100 yards and pushes 2,835 fps chrono average. (first 2-shot group, .70. second 2-shot group, .60. Finally, a Five shot group opened up to .90 with three shots cloverleafed). The pursuit of more accuracy seems pointless...but... Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | ||
|
One of Us |
Hey Robert First of all the measurement off the lands should be .010", not .001" or .0015". Bullets are not that consistant even if you are measuring off the ogive curve and not the tip. Seating depth is extremely difficult to keep within a variance of less than .002" even with the best case prep and the best competition seaters. Barnes recommends .050" off the lands not .005" and that should tell you something. If you try to seat .001" off the lands you will have some that will be just off at .002" and some that will be in contact with the lands. Not good for accuracy because that is where the most change in pressure and velocity happen, right at contact with the lands. Much better to back off .020" or .030" and work up a good hunting load and vary seating depth by .010" further away from the lands to tweak for accuracy. Most rifles nowadays have to be seated much much farther from the lands, some as much as .275" like the Weatherby's and RUM's and WSM's and you will find some who get excellent accuracy with that big jump. Don't cause yourself a problem by trying to seat too close to the lands! As far as measuring to the ogvie curve, just get yourself a set of Hornady Comparators or the Sinclair nut. The Hornady will clamp directly to your calipers  I'm sure HC will be along directly to tell you that you don't need any "thingy's" and tell you how to make one out of bubble gum and tomato stakes!   ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
Wood's advice sage. If you're dealing with other than a hunting rifle then you belong in another, more demanding and exacting rifle Forum such as "Benchrest". All sorta advice give about AOL - AND it CAN make a huge/marginal/small difference in rifle/load; specifically in your particular hunting rifle & ammunition. Primarily in depth of bullet seating and resulting pressure depending on powder used, load density, etc. Don't get too wrapped around the axle here. IMO .030" (similar to Woods; say, Off-the-Lands) is about a trim as I care to cut the mustard for a hunting rifle with vanilla-flavored hunting bullets; yes, AOL can make/create a difference in RELIABLE/ACCURATE hunting rifle ammunition but don't tweak it too fine. Don't chase the number of Fairies that dance on the head of a pin here; strive to make accurate, reliable hunting amunition that in the most extreme potential isn't going to get a bullet stuck in the lands of your rifle or create too much pressure from lack of freebore or otherwise ruin a good hunt. Like Woods states above there will be plenty of Soothsayers who would suggest otherwise such as "Closer", "Kissing-the-Lands" or "Shoved-into-the-Lands" or a coupla thousands +/- makes a Hill-of-Beans. That's not what hunting ammunition is all about; especailly when you're real far from a bench, cleaning rod and facilties for poking a bullet outa the chamber of your rifle. Cheers, Number 10 | |||
|
| One of Us |
This a case of someone taking a single facet from among all of the exacting things that the bench rest crowd do and trying to turn it into the holy grail. Everyone wants their rifles to be all that they can be but that can usually be acchieved without the exotic approaches to reloading. Or without delving into things that have a potential for harm. The simple proceedure of blacking a bullet and seating it out until you have marks from the lands and backing it off (or working in the other direction) has served a lot of shooters very well over the years. If you follow the FAQ threads, there are numerous post on how different shooters find the lands without the "thingies".  Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
As wasbeeman says--things you sorta kinda half understand about BR techniques do not necessarily work out well for loading rounds for a factory rifle. In this particular instance--bullets that are hand swaged and inspected individually certainly can and do have a constant base to ogive measurement--within lots. This is why we buy from custom makers like Bart's or BIB or Precision Ballistics--and as much as we can of a lot that the current barrel likes. On the other hand, there is no sense in paying $.45 per bullet and $1.25 per case to load my Winchester model 94, even though it will shoot bullets similar to my 30 BR. The rifle is just not built to tolerances that will show the efficacy of the more expensive and uniform components. The press and die makers and the gun writers who live off the revenues provided by their advertising will certainly argue this point, but it is still true that unless you are shooting a BR built custom rifle there is no advantage in trying to load like like you are. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
|
| One of Us |
No so. In fact, most sporter rifles won't know the difference in a seating spread of ten times that no matter how it's measured. If accuracy was all that twitchy no one could get good groups. | |||
|
One of Us |
I agree with just about everything said here, so here's my 2 cents worth. I,m a tactical competitor so I do have to rely on accuracy and especially consistency when developing my loads. The second part of the aforesaid is key "consistency"! Every gun is different just as every bullet is different so to say " stay off the lands xx much" is ridicules at best speaking in general of course. The BR crowd is fanatic about accuracy and for good reason, that's what they do. But to me, BR is like watching rigamortis set in on fresh road kill. Here's what I've learned from these manic hole in hole seekers. Start with your bullet tight against the lands and back out 1000Th. at a time. I guess just like working up on powder? Good luck. BTW, I subscribe to the ink, paint or whatever works for measuring your bullet to lands! | |||
|
| one of us |
The best way I've found to do this is to convert OCL(or OAL) to ODL. There is no coherent reason to drive yourself bonkers by totally wasting money on a "Thingy". On the other hand, if you enjoy tossing money away, having totally non-repeatable measurements, getting Red Faced with anger, and enjoy drinking to excess, then a "Thingy" is the an excellent thing to have.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
See, told you so!  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
one of us |
I purchased the comparitor that Woods described and it is a very nice tool to have, IMO. I measure all cartridges from the ogive. Just rememeber to check that the rounds will feed accurately in your magazine outside of the Ruger No. 1. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
|
Moderator |
i like -0.025 to -0.035 ... i don't shoot benchrest, i hunt, and i don't want a grain of sand or temp to make a change where presure can spike. i do NOT load anything but target rifles "right on the lands" opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| Moderator |
i guess hotsore has been drinking to excess, getting red faced, and playing with his thingy again.. over a pile of MANY THOUSANDS of deer he's shot opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
One of Us |
I'll keep using my Stoney Point "Thingy" in preference to messing around with a cleaning rod & sticky tape. The latter method is hardly what one might call "precision" & has questionable repeatability. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I took Hot Core's advice on how to convert OCL to ODL and it works like a charm. IMHO best method out there for keeping it accurate AND EASY! Seems alittle confusing at first but you'll quickly get the hang of it. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey Woods, Any chance you missed that????? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, right. But not exactly the Holy Grail. Just one more thing that can drive a reloader nuts. I am getting sub MOA groups now...it's a question of asking if I can get an even better group by just modifying one variable - - a variable which I've never paid much attention to in the past. I've always just loaded to magazine box length, minus enough for reliable feeding. The Ruger #1 is a different game though. I'm not limited there - just a question of "what makes sense". Perhaps I can get down to a 1/2" group - it's just a game. Sub MOA is plenty good for my needs. Now I'm just being a bit of an anal retentive...mostly because I enjoy it. Good stuff in this thread! Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
|
One of Us |
Excellent posts by Woods and jeffeosso. Nominated for the POTD. Woods.... why would you think that Hotsh#t would come up with anything other than crap?? Imagine being wrong 8,195 times would drive anyone back to the basement and to open another bottle. But we have to be patient with Hotsh#t he is trying to become more sociable just like Tiger Woods is trying not to swear on the golf course. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I wish I had! 
Quite frankly, this is the most complicated and inaccurate method I could think of.  As someone with a proper comparator can attest to, you can have the seating stem set at the same place and get different seating depths. That can be because of a different bullet grip, different amount of powder compression, difference in compression of linkage on the press, etc. This can all be quite easily monitored and adjusted individually with a comparator but not with your absolute one time measurement. Then you get to the lock ring and seating stem. Do you really think you can lock a die down to the exact same place to the 1/1000ths of an inch or measure to the top of a seating stem with a slotted screw driver head? I'd say you are probably "in the......chicken coop" (closer than a ballpark and probably much easier for you to find), maybe within .010" variance from one load to the other. Then, as anyone with a comparator can tell you, seating stems compress and the seating depth measurements can start to get longer as you go through a bunch of cases and need to be adjusted. You wouldn't know! But since you are my friend, I won't go into the other 10 reasons why "thingy's" do a better job.  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
I think Craig mentioned that too. I can see where screwing a Die out of a Press, measuring the ODL, recording that value, adjusting the ODL to any Seating Depth you desire, and screwing the Die back into the Press is quite complex.  You all feel FREE(no Thingy needed) to improve on it anywhere you think it needs improving.  Completely AGREE that the "Thingys" are inaccurate pieces of trash for taking repeatable measurements and a total waste of money. No need to do steps that are not needed. The Proof is in the actual Shooting. Why anyone would want to take 100 readings with a Thingy, average them to get a relative idea of the measurement, make an adjustment to a single Cartridge, take another 100 readings, average again, etc., must think like a "Thingy" Salesman. The measurement uses the same exact tool - a 0.001" capable Caliper - as you tie the totally worthless Thingy to. The HUGE difference is there is much less Tolerance Stacking, Thingy shifting, misreading and aggravation. Just the facts. I've not used any of the Lee Resizing Tools(except for the Primer Seaters and Case Length Trimmers) for many years, so I am totally unaware of these "compressable Seating Stems" you mention. The ones in the RCBS and Redding Dies I use are actually made of Steel. To think the Steel Seating Stem will "compress" due to Case Neck Tension or whatever, is obviously some Word-Spun way of justifying the total measurement inaccuracy created by the Thingy.  I certainly appreciate you not embarrassing yourself any farther.   ----- By the way, everything is back to normal with the correct "Peaches".  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Okay "thingie" worshipers, You charge a cartridge and seat a bullet. You whip out your thingie and meassure the cartridge from the ogive of the bullet (now these are common garden variety bullets that we can all buy, not one offs made by elves under a hollow log and it is .004" longer that the two before it. You recycle it thru your seater and it's still long compared to the other two? What do you do? Do you re-adjust your die? Lets say you don't and the next round is .002 short. What do you do now? Having bought your thingie(s) so's you can take exact measurements, other than frustrate the hell out of you, what do they do for you? Other than tell you that there are short and long bullets in a box? As posted, there is also a certain amount of "tolerances" in the best of presses so chasing an exact dimensioned cartridge can be a very frustrating job. (read expensive) Of course, once you find out that your ammo is not exact, you also learn that there are other new and improved "thingies" (at a new and improved price) that are much more precise and will take you to the promise land of ultra accuracy. So they say. Then, of course, when you shell out those kind of bucks, you might as well go whole hog and start buying one-off match bullets for your hunting rife. Then you get to come back in here with a post of: "I get 1/8" smaller groups with XXX match bullets. Is it okay to hunt with them?" It may mean I'm a bad person, but if there is a slight variance amongs the length of my cartridges, I don't want to know about it. I just want to shoot. And from the results I've had in factory matches and friendly competition, I'll say I can hold my own against the angsters. Seriously, if you're going to this much trouble and expense, why not just buy a bench rifle, and start following the Bench Rest game. Don't drink coffee or smoke before a match; learn how to time your trigger pull between heart beats; spend several hours a week in dry firing practice, etc. Even in a room with dedicated shooters and reloader like this, there are few people that can really reap any benifit from some of the extremes that are suggested. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
After I find the most accurate depth, I have been using base to ogive measurements for OAL. Measure with a bullet comparator "thingy" from Sinclair....cheap. Once you set up your seater to give you this base to ogive length, leave it set there since the seater seats from contact somwhere on the ogive. I agree that trying to chase the OAL from tip to base with every seated bullet is not prudent. | |||
|
| One of Us |
R, do I understand you to say that your press is so closely toleranced, your dies are so exact, and the bullets you seat are so perfect that there is not a difference amongst the completed cartridges even when measured from the ogive to the base?  Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
Using a "thingy" helps because measuring to a point on the ogive of a bullet is using a part of the bullet less likely to vary. If the slop betwixt ram & die are sufficient to cause a significant variance in seating depths, then fix the press or buy a new one. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Seating bullets is a dynamic process, just like throwing powder. How many times have I heard posters talk about checking every 5 or 10 throws to see if they are still throwing the right weight? What changed? The equipment stayed at the same adjustment. The powder hasn't changed. The seating stem is threaded and minute changes happen all the time to tightened screws, bolts, thingy's etc. However, most of the time the seating depth will change because of variance in powder compression, varying ID finish on the neck, varying bullet grips or varying work hardening of the brass necks. Like R, I don't constantly change the seating stem and chase a perfect set of seating depths. But I do often measure bearing surfaces on the bullets and have run into many culls, especially on Accubonds     Now do that without a "thingy" HC! Now the comparator hole is .011" less than groove diameter  which puts it within .003" of land diameter (correct me if I'm wrong but land diameter is .008" less than caliber, right?) With a good set of bullets, a good competion seater like a Redding or Forster and good prep on the ID of the neck (consistant bullet grip, finish and work hardening) then I have seated a whole set of bullets with a variance of less than .002". And my standard deviations have been reduced to single digits and groups have gotten smaller at long distance. If you don't check seating depths as you go, chances are you would be surprised by the results of using a comparator to check them. But what's that they say HC "Ignorance is bliss!"  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
If ignorance is bliss, I am the happiest person in AR!!! Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
I understand seeking the most accurate group possible. As Col. Whelen said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting." On the other hand, you have a Ruger No1 that shoots five shots under 1 inch. Cant ask a lot more than that! Curtis | |||
|
| one of us |
It depends on who made the barrel and the caliber. But, I feel sure that was simply a Test to see if I knew.
REALLY????? Well no foolin'!!! I did have this visual image of a person(guess who ) totally wearing out the Bullet Jacket, Case Neck and a Bullet Puller trying to get consistent Ogive-to-CaseHead dimensions with a never repeatable reading Thingy.Same with good old RCBS and Redding Standard Die Sets and no need at all to measure the Ogive/CaseHead to the point of nausea - just lots of Trigger Time. I'd say you are waaaaaaaaaay behind(in light years) jeffee, teenScum, gibson, seafire and tomek when it comes to ignorance being bliss. | |||
|
| One of Us |
My point, Oddbod, or perhaps question is once you have used your thingy to learn that there is varience amongst your finished cartridges, what do you do about it?? Not shoot the ammo? FYI, the operative word in your post is "significant". Which is a relative word as used. My question is still at what point does a variance cease to be significant? With Wood, it appears to be .002 or he hasn't found a thingie yet that will take him beyond that. .002, that's smaller than the diameter of a human hair isn't it? (I have none to measure) At what point does reloading the perfect cartridge become an obsession in and of itself rather than the means to an end? Do you reload to shoot or do you shoot to reload? Or is it merely a dick measureing contest where you can say you spend more money than someone else? Compare, if you will, the total outlay of say Wood to the cost of a Lee Loader. Lotsa meat put on the table every year with ammo crafted with Lee Loaders. In the not too distant past, Bench shooters used rigs that were no more than Lee Loaders. Still few of them weigh their charges. And none of them go to the firing line knowing what the variances are amongst their cartridges. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
I really think it depends on the bullet/brand you are loading. I loaded some 139 grain Lapua Scenars last night for the Creedmoor. I went back and forth between measuring OAL from the bullet tip then from the ogive. I realize the problem with measuring from the tip is that the bullet lengths can vary, but then so can the ogive. I then measured 10 bullets for length out of the bulk 1000 ct. box of Scenars I have. Most were exactly the same; none varied by more than .002" in length. If you're shooting bullets this good, OAL from base to tip will work just fine as far as I can guess. Wrong? Like Woods says, OAL varies even with the best seating dies. I anneal and it keeps neck tensions as close to identical as possible between cases. With the prep he does and mica lube, I'm sure it's better but how far do you want to take this? | |||
|
| One of Us |
"...how far do you want to take it?..." Bingo! Everyone has a comfort zone. I think every newbie should neck turn, neck size, anneal, etc. All of those neat things. Sad to say, he should also buy those thingies. And learn to use them. Until he has a whole shelf full of them. Only then can he decide where his comfort zone is. Are some of the anal things he is told MUST be done to acchieve even the shabbiest standards needed? Will some of the thingies really take him to the promise land of ultra accuracy? As he learns about reloading, he adds to his collection of thingies gathering dust on the shelf. Since he is shooting more, he learns that in the real world of shooting, .002" in cartridge length is INsignifant unless he has embraced reloading as a hobby rather than shooting. Do you reload to shoot or do you shoot to reload? There's room for all of us but if I don't have a shelf full of thingies, it doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. (or does it?)  Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
Absolutely not, it just means you are like HC!  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
Mr. Woods, You sure have paid Beeman a HIGH compliment!!!   I have no problem at all with people having the various measurement Thingys. It can be a bit misleading to the Rookies and Beginners "thinking" they actually need to (totally waste money) buy one before they can shoot groups in the 1/2" area. I'm in the 6s when things are going good and my Focus is on shooting with my old Hunting rifles. So, some of these youngsters with heart beats below the 50s(where mine is when calm) should be able to run them into tiny groups all day - and no Thingys needed. | |||
|
| Moderator |
my, you have a high opinion of yourself opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hey HC, I actually agree with you!  New reloaders are not best served with a shelf full of thingy's, and I don't think I have ever said so. Thingy's are best procured one at a time when you have a question that can not be pursued to an absolute answer without lots of facts and data. You know, analytical minds need facts and data...............well, maybe you don't know, but they do! Thingy's are best used by us reloaders with inquiring minds and an insatiable thirst for furthering our already considerable knowledge. Not for reloaders with a thirst for another canning jar full of cider! All kidding aside (and I'm sure you do shoot good sometimes, you know, blind hog and all that), the OP seems to be wanting to learn and good equipment will take him further in the long run than duct tape and baling wire. And I understand beeman about
Fact is, I'm not sure, they are intricately tied together along with hunting. The thing is, I really don't learn much around here about shooting or hunting but there is a lot to learn about reloading. You know, the name of the forum and all. If I can learn one itty bitty piece of minutiae that stirs my imagination and makes me think, that's what I'm here for. And duct tape and baling wire isn't going to do that for me. I feel like deleting all this crap before posting it (I know HC, the first intelligent thing I have said) but anyway, if anyone knows of any new thingy's, let me know. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
NOOOOOOO!!!!! Do not delete your words of "Thingy" wisdom. They are always good for a few .Lets see now, new Thingys. I do think of "invaluable" new eloading Tools all the time, but there just isn't enough alleged Scam Artist in my DNA to offer them to the public. How `bout them there "Lock-N-Load" Thingys for the Dies. They save approximately 1.2-1.6 seconds over screwing a Die into the Press, they add an additional level of Tolerance Stacking and once you begin using them, you need to buy them for EVERY Die Set you have. How can you possibly live without them????? ----- Hey rnovi, If you want to measure from the Case head to the Ogive, you can use a Socket out of your Tool Box. Use the Largest Socket you have which will not go completely past the Ogive. Then measure from the top of the Socket to the Case Head with your 0.001" capable Calipers and you are good to go - no " Thingys " needed. Works the same to sort Bullets from the Base to the Ogive if a person wants to do that(probably Mr. Woods ). | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thingies, not Thingys. So there. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Actually Wood has hit on an excellant point. The newbies that want to get ahead of the learning curve. And often the folks posting help encourage that very thing. A fellow comes in here and ask: "how do I put the bullet in the case?" And before the thread is over, you have folks telling him he needs to buy custom dies and telling him how many microns the bullet must be from the lands. Or worse yet, telling him he must load into the lands or he won't have any luck with accuracy, etc. I don't know the answer but it would be nice if we could tailor our answers to the level of expertice of the poster. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| one of us |
I've often had sleepless nights fretting over the correct spellin! | |||
|
| One of Us |
And that'll work. Thanks. Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Damn HC, that's 3 wins for the duct tape and baling wire side craigcampbell beeman rnovi and zero for the thingy side! I'm losing the thingy war!  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia