Yeah odd, I know.
My father just passed onto me an old Rolling Block, not really suited for anything but really light loads, and about the only thing even approaching a reasonable powder is BlueDot. I'm thinking about 14g behind a 348g RN would keep me well under 1300 fps. Anyone have any data on something like this?
I'll be getting a can of Unique eventually and working up a rainbow load, but wanting something for now just to get it out and lob some lead with it.

Do you perhaps know what the original black powder pressure for the 45-70 was?
Do have any pictures of this gun you could post?

Any particular reason for wanting to use Blue Dot? Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook has low velocity/pressure load data for the Trapdoor Springfield in 45-70 that should work just fine in your roller. Loads using SR4759, IMR4198, IMR3031 are there, no Blue Dot loads listed for any application in 45-70.

Right, I can answer my own question. The original pressure was <18000psi.

I found this on the 'net.

quote:

This intuitive, simple and easy-to-use action was incredibly strong and incredibly popular. The rolling block rifles produced during the 1800's used metal that cannot stand up to today's high-powered ammunition. Thankfully, Knight Rifles has been able to update the rolling block action for today's hunters. We employed the same simple, durable, easy-to-use design that made the rolling block rifles so popular, but updated with modern-day technology.

The Hodgdon site does not list any Blue Dot loads but they do give a nice selection for the Trapdoor rifles.

quote:

385 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon Varget .458" 2.505" 42.5 1537 15,400 CUP 52.5 1805 21,800 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP IMR IMR 4064 .458" 2.505" 47.0 1545 18,800 CUP 50.0 1661 24,000 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP IMR IMR 4895 .458" 2.505" 44.2 1412 16,200 CUP 47.0 1486 18,100 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon H4895 .458" 2.505" 35.0 1280 11,900 CUP 42.0 1526 23,100 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP IMR IMR 3031 .458" 2.505" 49.0 1684 22,300 CUP 52.0 1819 25,900 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon Benchmark .458" 2.505" 50.0 1621 16,300 CUP 53.0 1779 21,300 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP IMR IMR 4198 .458" 2.505" 31.0 1405 15,000 CUP 33.0 1491 17,400 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon H4198 .458" 2.505" 28.0 1302 13,300 CUP 32.0 1483 14,700 CUP
385 GR. CAST LFP IMR Trail Boss .458" 2.505" 14.0 1075 19,400 CUP 16.0 1142 23,200 CUP

Bwana

I shoot 350 grain Hornadys in my Trapdoor with 40 grains of 3031 and it's a good, accurate, safe load. Velocity is right at 1300 fps. The Rolling Block is at least as strong as the Trapdoor. I wouldn't mess with any powder faster than 4198 and even that is too fast IMHO.

Ray

Hey Bwana-be, Since the thought of using Blue Dot crossed your mind, this probably will not make sense to you. A small amount of Powder which is waaaaaaay to fast for the application is not necessarily "Low Pressure".

As have all the other posters, I'd encourage you to simply use Published Loads. Have a Gun Smith check the rifle if you are concerned about it Ka-Booming with the proven Low Pressure Loads from the Powder Manufacturers.

Blue Dot has it's place, but Reduced Loads is not it.

Hey,

to me, the 45/70 just looks as a biiiig .45 LC, doesnt it? Same form of cylindrical case.

There are lots of BD recipees for the .45 LC, also very little powder in a huge case, burnt several pounds of BD that way. I would not hesitate to try any of them in the .45/70.

quote:

I'd encourage you to simply use Published Loads.

Blue Dot has it's place, but Reduced Loads is not it.

Sounds like good advice to me.

quote:

Originally posted by DUK: . . .to me, the 45/70 just looks as a biiiig .45 LC, doesnt it? Same form of cylindrical case.

There are lots of BD recipees for the .45 LC, also very little powder in a huge case, burnt several pounds of BD that way. I would not hesitate to try any of them in the .45/70.

DUK

That's a dangerous way of thinking, in my opinion. The 458 Winchester Magnum is another straight case, nearly identical to a 45-70, but I don't think you'd suggest that Blue Dot is an appropriate powder for it, would you?

Powders are made in different shapes and burning rates for different applications. It's best not to try and stretch their usefullness and make them into something they are not.

JMHO

Ray

Ray,

yes, I would do that with a .458 WM, too. I don't own one but have done that quite successfully with the .338 WM and that powder and am still alive.

I am not aware of any reason why fast powders at low loading densities should be dangerous in rifle but not in handgun rounds.

Look for example at the .38 SP with 2.7 grain of Red Dot. Now, that's low loading density but not considered dangerous.

DUK

I never said that fast powders at low loading densities was dangerous. I said that your way of thinking was dangerous. If you want to load the 458 Win Mag or the 338 Win Mag, or any other Magnum, with Blue Dot, or Red Dot, or Bullseye for God's sake, you go right ahead. But I think you are being dangerous in encouraging others to do it.

JMHO

Ray

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1491085901/p/1

On this thread about the 221 Fireball, I posted a Hercules load chart that includes Unique and Blue Dot data for several rifle cartridges, including the 45-70.
I have a cleaner copy for emailing, if needed.
Very true about reduced loads/fast powders; the cast boolit arena would be littered with dead bodies, if all the blowup theorists were correct. Attention to detail is the gist of the keeping it safe.

Greg

Ray, I honestly would like to learn about the reasons of your recommendation not to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
On this thread about the 221 Fireball, I posted a Hercules load chart that includes Unique and Blue Dot data for several rifle cartridges, including the 45-70.

In this manual, Alliant 2400 is recommended for the 458 WM, an even slower powder than Blue Dot but quite similar to Vihta N110 which is recommended by the manufacturer for reduced rifle loads.

I guess I'm not saying it right, so I'll try one last time.

I never said that light charges of fast burning powders in any case was dangerous. And I surely did not use the words 'blow-up' or "dead bodies" at any time.

What I did say is that looking at the big cases as nothing more than an overgrown pistol cartridge is a dangerous way of thinking. Implying such a thing is a disservice to beginning handloaders because it very well could lead to a dangerous practice.

Ray

I wouldn't use a bluedot load in that action

OK, sorry guys, I seem to have dropped a few words from my original post. Try again:
Bluedot is the only powder "I have on hand" that resembles a reasonable powder.
I would not choose Bluedot of course, but if there's some data out there I woud take it out this w/e and lob a few pills just for fun till I can get a decent powder.
GMDR lists 14g giving ~1000 fps, seems about all I can find.
Again, I'm not interested in working up loads for this rifle; just loading something up for temporary fun.

quote:

Bluedot is the only powder "I have on hand" that resembles a reasonable powder.

I did wonder about that. Perhaps a visit over on Cast Boolits would yield some useful results for you. Those folks do that sort of thing all the time.

What I would suggest from a purely safety aspect is that with reduced loads of that nature is to use a load that will not break something if it is accidently double charged. (It has been stated that 38spl can use a very small charge of very fast powder but there are also instances of blown revolvers from accidental double charges!)

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
...I am not aware of any reason why fast powders at low loading densities should be dangerous in rifle but not in handgun rounds. ...

Hey DUK, You must have missed the excellent observation by the esteemed Dr. Oehler where he noted a 50% Pressure Increase due to the Powder position in a relatively small 38Spl Case.

Does the difference between a "Progressive Controlled Burn" where the Powder is nearly filling a Case and a "Flash Over" when Powder is loose inside the Case help explain why Blue Dot is a bad idea?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
OK, sorry guys, I seem to have dropped a few words from my original post. Try again:
Bluedot is the only powder "I have on hand" that resembles a reasonable powder.
I would not choose Bluedot of course, but if there's some data out there I woud take it out this w/e and lob a few pills just for fun till I can get a decent powder.
GMDR lists 14g giving ~1000 fps, seems about all I can find.
Again, I'm not interested in working up loads for this rifle; just loading something up for temporary fun.

You have a couple of problems here.

1) You have an old 45/70 rolling block.

2) You have Blue Dot.

This is a great combination for winning a “Darwin Award”. Wait until you can spring the money for a can of Pyrodex.

I have loaded for the 45-70 for many years. You may be able to find a load for bluedot but it is not one of my favorite powders. I had a friend who worked up some loads in the 45 long colt. Blue dot worked ok till the loads got near max. He was increasing the loads by 1 grain and the pressure curve seamed like a vertical line. With only 2 grains increase the load became to hot. The mussel flash went from smokey orange to blue white. Primers were flat ect. This on a load that was still below the “book” max.
The main problem with light loads in the big cases like the 45-70 is powder position. You need to hold the powder over the primer to get reliable ignition. The 2ed problem is you need to hold the powder in place with some thing that doesn’t become a second projectile and act like a barrel obstruction. I have in the past used a ¼ sheet of 2 ply toilet paper over the powder pressed in place with a dowel or pencil. I think the load was 10 gr unique and a 340 gr cast bullet. This made a interesting confetti load. Now I use a powder like Trail boss that is bulky.
Bill

The presumption that this rolling block action is "safe for smokeless" is pushing the envelope in my book. I see several red flags on this thread in general:

Lots of "rolling blocks" out there. So far I haven't seen any discussion of what brand, age of this rifle. I'd want to know more about the gun before working up a load.

"What I have on hand" -- That's like putting truck wheels on a Volkswagen, because "it's what I have on hand." If you're going to load for a specific firearm, you need to get specific about your powder choices.

So far what I'm seeing is some speculation about "what might work" which is pretty much devoid of any discussion about working pressures and burn rates, and the ballistics/physics involved.

45/70 is NOT a handgun caliber. It's NOTHING like 45 Colt. Blue Dot is not a rifle powder.

I'd be hesitant about even a published load without first finding out more about the rifle in question.

yeah, but it ain't a handgun powder either!
:P
The rifle is from Remington, and has shot many loads with Unique, don't recall the load. Of course shooting any old firearm is a bit risky, which is why I'm looking to keep it well under 1300, more like 1000 fps. I've got lots of dacron (and toilet paper for that matter) so keeping the powder "put" in a single shot shouldn't be an issue.
BTW, it does look like Trail Boss is what I'm after doesn't it? Lots of trapdoor cowboy loads for that one.

quote:

385 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon Varget .458" 2.505" 42.5 1537 15,400 CUP

Well, for a low pressure load, way below the black powder pressure of the day, you can use a Hodgdon approved load like the one above. That is a trapdoor starting load.
There are lower pressure loads like this one.

quote:

385 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon H4895 .458" 2.505" 35.0 1280 11,900 CUP

That is a starting load too and way lower in pressure than the starting load for Trail Boss.

quote:

385 GR. CAST LFP IMR Trail Boss .458" 2.505" 14.0 1075 19,400 CUP