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Been kicking around the idea of getting a rifle in this caliber as I already have a .223 and have no use for a .22 cal larger. For you .221 Fireball owners, did you ever regret the purchase and wished you would of picked a different chambering? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | ||
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YES ; I REGRETTED IT !. Seeing as I already had a .17 several .22 rimfires as well as .222 .223 .22-250 and I had a .22 Hornet biggest piece of crap I've ever had the displeasure of owning !. A friend said I needed a .221 to complete the .22's , it was OK but hard on cases seemed like I was annealing those buggers all the time and still had many necks split !. Not for me if the 22-250 or .223 doesn't work I will jump up to 6.5 as I don't currently own any 6mm and see NO REAL reason to own one of those either .  | |||
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I have one, a custom on a Sako A1 action. Have shot a few coyotes with it and a few PDs, but it's a light barrel, so really don't use it much in the PD fields. And I have a 221FB TC contender handgun that I use a lot on PDs. I like the cartridge, it but it's not that special. Contrary to the gent abocve, I have three Hornets, two Anchutz and a Kimber. I like them a lot. They are a great 150-200 yard PD gun in my view, id the wind is mild. NRA Patron member | |||
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Must have been a Ruger 77/22 Hornet.  | |||
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Ah well, I was visiting a local shop in town and they had the new Rem SPS lefty varmit rifle on sale for $558. It was in .223 so I picked it up. Maybe a Fireball next time  My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Snowwolfe, I have a left handed cooper in 221. It is by far the best shooting gun I own with factory ammo. | |||
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I had one for a while a few years back, and I had no regrets. Unlike the report above, I never had a split neck or any other problem with it. And I used both commercial brass and cases I formed from .223s -- and I never bothered with annealling, either. With the old-style Speer 52 grain HP, it printed remarkably-small groups on a consistent basis and was quite efficient considering the amount of powder burned for the velocity it achieved. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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doc224/375 wrote: "YES ; I REGRETTED IT !. Seeing as I already had a .17 several .22 rimfires as well as .222 .223 .22-250 and I had a .22 Hornet biggest piece of crap I've ever had the displeasure of owning !. A friend said I needed a .221 to complete the .22's , it was OK but hard on cases seemed like I was annealing those buggers all the time and still had many necks split !." --- doc-as to your comments regarding the Hornet: If you are going to make such a strong statement, at least take the time to elaborate. What was wrong with it (in your opinion)? Was it the gun, the cartridge, the ammo, etc.? And as to splitting Fireball cases, I know many shooters who used/still use one and have never run into anyone with such problems. It sounds like you either may have some technical reloading issues or a chamber problem rather than a cartridge problem. Again, if you could please elaborate... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Agree. I currently have three rifles in 22 Hornet, a Win 54, a Ruger 77/Hornet and a Browning Huntsman Hornet. Haven't shot the 54 yet as I bought it mid-winter. But, the Ruger and the Huntsman are very accurate, with each one dropping 3 shots into 1/2" at 100 yards, far better than Hornets of yesteryear that I did have. So, no flies on currently made Hornets at all. I'm sure I could live very well with the Anschutz and Kimber Hornets too. Don | |||
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Lots of thought going into Hornets here right now , due to the price of .17HMR going cosmic!  | |||
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I don't have a 221FB and haven't studied the cartridge or ballistics much. My question is, If it's a 200 yd gun, will it do anything a .222 won't do and do very well? | |||
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i rechambered a browning lowal 22 hornet to 221. no regrets at all. while i love hornets, especially K hornets, the 221 does what the hornet does, only with a bit heavier bullet. makes much more spectacular hits on PD's and the like. low noise, low recoil etc. yes i like the 222 alot too, but for me the 221 just sort of filled a niche in that little lowall | |||
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I have one built on a Sako action and love it. I'm sure I am one of the only owners in Southern Africa with a 221, but if anyone else has one, let me know to compare loads. | |||
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I have two .221 Fireballs. Both are mine are CZ 527 Americans. I have also have two Remington 700s in .223 Rem. I shoot my Fireballs way more than I shoot the .223 Remingtons to the point they have pretty much replaced my .223s. My .223s are going to become something else in the .223 AI / .204 Ruger class. My Fireballs to me is a 250 yard varmint cartridge and the .223 is a 300 yard cartridge. Both of those calibers can be stretched beyond those marks a bit but that but that is where I shoot them to. I switch to something better in the wind any further than that out. What I like about them is they burn 70% of the powder of the .223 and they seem to stay cooler because of it while I am shooting lots of rounds. I also like the reduced recoil that keeps me from losing the target picture in recoil. I am pretty sure the barrels will last longer as well as they burn less powder per shot. That all being said a .223 Remington is pretty much a no-brainer unless you are looking to really specialize. As you already have a .223 I would look at a 17 Fireball rather than a .221 Fireball. They can serve slightly different purposes. You have a good bit of overlap with a .223 and a .221 and this is why I am bumping my .223s up to something with more range. If your .223 has a 1/9 twist or tighter than there is more you can do with it as you can send high BC bullets that do better in the wind. Have a look at the Varmint forum as there have been several posts on the 17 Fireball recently. To answer your question, I have never regretted my two Fireballs. I wish I had a few more. | |||
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I have the 221, 222, 223, and 22-250. The 221 is my favorite. No regrets, except for selling previously owned fireballs.  | |||
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Bobby Tomek ; In my "opinion " it was the cartridge it's self . I have stated this MANY times in the past . My shooting buddy's plus myself #3 total , could never get a single Rifle out of the #3 to group under MOA in .22 Hornet . TC Winchester 54 and a Ruger 77/22 Hornet . I owned the Winchester . We tried for better than 6 months every powder bullet weight primer combination any of us could come up with . I even posted too the forum for help on loads showed targets , NO CONSISTENCY with any of those Rifles . I've never been one to put a piece of crap label on ANY FIREARM OR CARTRIDGE !. I figure it could always have been just ME or my Gun but when #3 experienced shooters fail in different guns to group , then something is rotten somewhere ( didn't want to offend the Danish , I like them ). I had a Remington 700 in .221 Fireball IT SHOT GREAT !. I simply lost cases at a far greater rate than any thing Else I own . I never bought factory cases or ammo , I die formed annealed ,loaded then shot . I would get some that would go 5-7 times split some only 4 times then split . In all fairness too the .221 It could have been some bad Winchester cases I bought new in .223 ?. I've never had issues per say with case life ( Still using some 40 year old plus 7mm RM .375 H&H cases !. ) or reloading any of my 27 calibers I load for . Now here is the Gospel truth : I shoot 8-10K rounds a year have for nearly 15 years now, before that maybe 3-5K . I have seen strange things happen !! ,busted 3 firing pins a couple of springs throated a barrel or 10 even had a stock snap in two pieces . I have had Exactly 5 Primer malfunctions 3 with CCI 2 with Winchester in over 40 years of reloading . Spilled powder didn't seat primer have put shotshells together without powder ( More Than I care to admit to ! ) crushed cases with bullet misalignment . I still have all of my head and face hair , 8 fingers 2 opposeable thumbs, both eyes ears nose and all of my teeth .On top of all that I Served 2 tours in Nam as a Ranger hunted on several continents for most things that walked this earth . My Grouping is as follows # 16 shots 1 fouler # 15 for count regulated 1-2 minutes between shots . If the weapon won't stay under MOA , it's somebody Else's or if I really like it I rework or have it reworked until it meets my criteria . I'm a one shot guy when hunting and don't make excuses . A DI once told me opinions are like assholes everybody is entitled too 1 Excuses are a failure to comprehend ones responsibility to a given situation ! In My Personal Opinion and it's ONLY MY OPINION .22Hornet SUCKS BIG TIME !. | |||
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I can't agree with that Hornet sucking comment. I had thought so after my first couple reloading attempts with regular RCBS dies until I learned the accuracy secret to the Hornet: Start with a CZ 527 in 22 Hornet Buy a Lee Collet die for 22 Hornet Buy a Forster Ultra seater or a Forster Benchrest seater for 22 Hornet Buy some Lil'Gun powder, a box of CCI BR4 or CCI Small Pistol (yes, I mean Small Pistol not Small Rifle) primers , a box of Hornady .224" 35 grain Vmax, and a bag of Winchester 22 Hornet brass Prime the case with a CCI BR4 or a CCI Small Pistol Load 13.0 or 13.1 grains of Lil'Gun in a Collet sized case (13.1 is slightly compressed) Seat a 35 grain Hornady Vmax to magazine length Go shoot the gun and enjoy yourself...if it does not shoot consistent 3/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards you need to check your scope. That load has shoot 3/4" groups in 4 separate CZ 527 22 Hornets I have shot. I owned two of them, and put thousands and thousands of rounds through them based on my reloading logs. I can safely say that the Hornet does indeed shoot, and does a pretty good job of killing varmints as long as the wind is not blowing hard. I now prefer my .221s more though as I can load up or down as needed and the .221 shoot tighter groups (1/2" instead of 3/4"). My .221 also takes to higher BC bullets better than the Hornet. That 527 Hornet magazine is pretty short and limits what you can load. Special notes: 1) You should check that the throat is long enough for the magazine length. All 4 of the CZ 527s I refer to had lands seating with COL past magazine length. 2) Only use the small pistol primers with the Lil'Gun. It has very low pressures in a 22 Hornet case. If you run H110 the pressures run a bunch hotter and can be peaky. The BR4 are a nice touch but unneeded if you stick to Lil'Gun. 3) Don't bother full sizing or trimming the cases. The brass is thin and it does just fine only being fireformed. Once you start seeing significant expansion about the web or they get hard to chamber chuck them. With the 22 Hornet and Lil'Gun you should be able to get plenty of loads per case. If you really want to full size them get the Redding Body die for 22 Hornet. I had one but never had to use it. 4) The Lee Collet and Forster Ultra dies make all the difference. The Lee also doesn't stretch the case necks at all. The Forster spring loaded seater insert makes sure the bullets go in very straight and that you won't dink up those thin necks. I would be very, very surprised if you follow those recommendations, and the results were not exactly as I described. | |||
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I'm very happy with my .221 Fireball rifle. It is a custom-built rifle (not by me) on a Zastava Mini Mark X action with a 22-inch lightweight barrel. I replaced the factory trigger with a Sako trigger which breaks like a tiny icicle at about 2 lbs. It is delightfully accurate with 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips running around 3200 fps as I recall. It is not as quiet as my Hornets, but then it uses more powder at higher pressures, so it is not supposed to be as quiet. If you wanted to download it to Hornet velocities and pressure, you would have the cartridge that the Hornet should have been -- rimless, sufficiently thick brass to load to 50K working pressures, and a shoulder on which it can reliably headspace. Brass seems to last as well as any (I modified a Lee Collet die to do my resizing). Bottom line: My .221 is a keeper about which I have no regrets. | |||
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Hey Bobby, I had a few 22Hornet M43 Winchesters(all previously owned) and one 22Hornet T/C Contender Carbine. Had the Cartridge in one rifle or another for 35 years. All this was prior to Lil' Gun Powder and Bullets under 45gr. All the M43's were 0.223" and the T/C was 0.224". The M43's had to be fed from the magazine, you could not drop one in the Chamber and close the Bolt on it. Not a big deal afield, but a real pain in the clinton at the Range. The biggest problem I encountered was "constantly varying accuracy" from week to week. I could get a Load developed right at 1" and the next time I shot it, it might be 1.25"<->1.5" from the same 50 count box of Handloads. Primer roulette would make me think I had it solved and then the groups would go all to obummer. Lots of Powders in use back then were IMR-4198, H4198, "2400", WW-680, IMR-4227, H4227, H110, WW-296 and others. Mostly focused on Pistol Primers which was(and still is) Safe at the Pressures a 22Hornet is Designed for. Tried all the 45-50gr Bullets(Hornet and regular) and one did as well as another. Short case life(Head Separations, Body Splits, Neck Splits) was normal regardless of the resizing operation. This was possibly due to the Set of Dies and ALL those Chambers just not having a good dimensional match. And I'm not talking about Magnumizing the 22Hornet, just routine normal Loads found in the Manuals of the last century. Finally Remington made a 20" 223Rem S&S M7 and I swapped my "LAST"(never again) 22Hornet in on it. Now I can have groups in the 6s at normal 223Rem levels, or I can download it to 22Hornet levels and still get groups in the 6s. The HUGE difference is the groups DO NOT change to 1.25"<->1.5" from the same 50 count box of Handloads. Same with 221Fireball level Loads if that is what someone desires. And the 223Rem is accurate w-a-y beyond the distance I currently take shots with it. Bought 1000 once-fired Fed 223Rem Cases from (maybe) BrassManBrass for $15(which included the Shipping) 15-18 years ago. Did a Full Case Prep, Weight Sorted them and I've yet to loose a Case due to Neck or Body Splits. The difference between carrying a pocket of 22Hornets and a pocket of 223Rems might be noticable to some folks, but to me there is no real difference. If I'd had access to Lil' Gun or the real light weight Bullets, perhaps my old 22Hornets would have shot better. But, I'll never try one again to find out. I'll leave my share of the current crop of 22Hornets for all you folks who enjoy them. Best of luck to all of you who have, or want to have, 22Hornets, or 221 FireBalls. | |||
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all you guys that have had such bad luck with hornets, really need to try a k hornet. it gets rid of all those problems - really it does, now what do think of getting a K hornet tattoo on my ass?? | |||
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If you put it where there is a "split in the Body", then it would be appropriate.  | |||
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It's going too sting and stink when you wipe it , butchloc !!!!!!!.    | |||
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22 Hornets in general are not "K-Hornets" when it ccomes to accurracy. The 221 Fireball is NOT THE EQUIVALENT of the old time, tried and true 222REMINGTON. I have a HORNET that is an eye opener........it's even made by RUGER!! Target Gray model.......traded for it at the store and first load tried, 9.5 grains of VV110 and 30 grain VMax's(some of you are questioning the reloading with 30 VMax's..........they were offered in an email from a distributor back in January 09..........same bullet as in the Hornady 22 Magnum factory loading but no mention of them as a component in any literature I've seen)2871fps and "cover the group with a quarter" results. Only Hornet load I've ever tried that would make me want to reload for the little beast! The 17HMR can do a great job out to 150-180 yards without having to worry about picking up brass and spending time at the bench. As far as the Fireballs go, either 17 or 221............the 222 or 223 can pretty much eat them for lunch as far as USABLE EFFICIENCY and accurracy goes and take it a step further and the 20's ............204 Ruger and 20 Tactical have them for dinner...........at an expensive restaurant!! Hornet accuracy is something quite frequently looked for but not quite often acheived. Fireball eficciency and accuracy can be had from case designs that are 50+ years old. The modern 20's are the cat's meow for varminting at MOST PEOPLES maximum varminting ranges. GHD Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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GD: I don't think anyone was trying to indicate that the much smaller .221 is in some way equal to the larger .223. When I go prairie dog hunting, I zero my .221 (40 grain bullets at 3200 fps) for 175 yards and use it for (the rare) target that presents itself closer and for those out to 200 or so. I zero my .223 (52 gr HP at 3300 fps) for 250 yards and use it for those in the 200 to 300 yard zone. Different rifles, different loads, different ranges. (Oh yes, I also carry either a Sako .22 Hornet or a custom Ruger .22 K-Hornet for walking around among the mounds and popping those which jump up in the 50-100 yard range. You don't want to hear about my 300-700 yard guns.) | |||
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Stonecreek, Sorry if I said something out of the way. Never my intention on the forum! My experience with the 221 has really only been with the XP's. I can see where it would be a great little walk around varminter! The 223 can be a great little walk around vverminter too, as well as the 222 or Hornet. If I'd had a Hornet as a kid or even a 22 Magnum with the ammo available today or GOD forbid for the varmant's sake a 17HMR, groundhogs would be extinct in this part of the country.............they're getting that way now!! As far as hearing about your 300-700 yard guns, I'm all ears! For me anymore (except for the exercise of walking and shooting the short stuff) groundhog hunting starts at 400 yards. The .204 handles that duty and up to 500 yards quite well and even has some confirmed kills in the 600 and 700 yard ranges........ethically....it's a 500 yard cartridge. After that the 6mm, 25-06 and .260 get the nod. And to 1000 yards and more the 6mm and 260 using Amaxs will take over............but I am not walking and carrying them around!! Again, sorry if I offended. Never my intentions. I just like shooting vermin.....whether it's 100 yards or 1000 yards. By the way, my walk around gun for this year will be a 6x47 Rem built on a Model 7 action shooting the 70 grain Sierra BK's. Lilja barrel, light contour, action worked and trued and will shoot 1/2" at 100 yards anyday.It was bought right here in the classifieds. Charlie Milliron (GHD) Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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Received some good tips on the Fireball and for that I thank all of you. Was planning to bid on a left hander Cooper but now the gentleman will not ship to Alaska so will not be adding a Fireball in the near future. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I own two .221 Fireballs, one has been through Speedy Gonzales' shop, has a Hart barrel and the 1st group went .187 for 5 shots,(seldom ever happens that way). The load is from Hodgedon's data, 14.5gr. Lil'Gun, 40gr. Sierrra Blitz, and a Remington 7 1/2 primer The other one is a Reminton LS 700 that has hardly been shot but still shoots well under 1/2". I've not had any case issues Stepchild 0) 14.5gr. of Hodgedon Lil'Gun, 40gr. Sierra Blitz, Remington 71/2. NRA Life Member | |||
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what the hell is the problem with shipping to alaska?? you guys still subject to indian attack or something | |||
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Charlie, It wasn't intended to replace the .222, which I have 2 of and love them both, 1st and foremost is my Sako L461BR, Douglas premium barrel in a custom stock. It shoots a 5 shot group that you can cover with a thumb tack. The other one is a 722 that I doubt will be much behind. Back to the .221 Fireball, 482 loads out of a # of powder ain't nothing to sneeze at and would serve the average varmint hunter very well. Let's face it, shots(hits) beyond 500 yds. are pretty rare due to wind, mostly. I,see the Fireball as a legitimate as a 250-300 yd varmint gun. I've never owned a Hornet/ K Hornet and don't intend to. Charlie, none of this was meant as scarcasim Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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For those who have personal experience, I'd value your input. I have a 223, but it's a bit noisy on some of the smaller properties I hunt on (500-600 acres) - some of the neighbours get a bit twitchy when they hear 'artillery' going off. I've tired the Hornet, did the job noisewise, but it never really lit my fire, tried the Bee, and it was pretty much perfect (noise wise), but the top eject on the 92 made putting a scope on it a problem. I know I could use reduced loads in the 223, but that means I have to muck around with sight settings... I'm a 'one gun one load' type of person, and I'm not about to change.. So I've been looking at building a rifle on a smaller cartridge than the 223. Is the Fireball much quieter than the 223? If it is, I can pick up a 788 or Brno in 222/223 have the barrel set back, and not go through the hassles of building a Bee. Thoughts? ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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Rugeruser: in 1991, I really wanted a rifle in 221 Fireball, and Kimber's were just too pricy. So I took a perfectly good Rem 788 in 222...and set the barrel back, just like you mentioned. Since I still have basically a 24" barrel, it certainly helps on sound levels. How much compared to a 223 is hard to say (rather subjective), but certainly easier on the ears. I do know it has been a great rifle/cartridge combo, taking everything from crows, coyotes, and feral hogs. Currently use AA1680 under 40gr Vmax's, for outstanding velocity and accuracy. And a fellow shooter recently took a look at the barrel with his borescope...it looked horrible! But yet still does under .75" or better groups. I also have a Rem 700 LVSF in Fireball, but the 788 is still my favorite. Greg | |||
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Thanks Greg, that's the sort of feedback I was looking for. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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Rugeruser: As I said, I'm feather-tickled happy with my .221 FB, but now that I understand your goals I have another suggestion for you: Buy a .222 and keep it the way it is. Load it with around 12 to 13 grains of Alliant Blue Dot (assuming it is available to you), which will give you velocities similar to a .221 with similar report. My Blue Dot loads for my .223 (50 grain bullet at 2850 fps) are almost as accurate as full power loads (actually, they are as accurate but wind blow them around a little more) and the report is much quieter. | |||
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Thanks Stonecreek... gee just when I thought I had it all worked out, someone comes up with another sensible suggestion.. Not sure about availability of Blue Dot out here at the moment, I'll have to check. It used to be plentiful, but I haven't bought any for years. Must confess, 13g of Blue Dot sounds like it would fill about half a 222 case, and I'm not real keen on loads of that density, but I take your point. One of the things that runs through the back of my mind when I'm thinking about this is that much of the time, our smaller calibres are used for shooting at night using a spotlight.. pest eradication and culling certain other animals (with permit). Inevitably, ammo gets dropped on the tray, or in the heat of the moment, rifles get swapped from shooter to shooter to take advantage of the situation. One thing I did like about the rimmed case was that it was very easy to feel which ammo belonged to which rifle.. and even if we got it wrong, neither would chamber in the other (which usually ended up with a whole series of allegations as to parentage and so on.. ) So...what I'm thinking is that it would be easier to 'feel' the difference between a Furball and a 223 than a 222 and a 223? Then again, 222 ammo and cases are far easier to obtain here than Furball. Aarrgh... back to the drawing board. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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I own 13, yes 13, Rifles in 221 FB. Never ever had the issues you experienced, I don't hot load or use extra long C.O.A.L. Very happy with it, a wonderful caliber for areas where low noise is a must, I use 7 gr of Blue Dot, 30 gr Barnes bullets, 205 Primers.
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Speaking of the 221 Fireball AND Blue Dot..the barrel length isn't listed, but this could be some relatively quiet and efficient loads.  | |||
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I, also, prefer powders that pretty well fill the case. However, my experience with Blue Dot has made me a believer in its qualities as a reduced load powder. Half-case quantities of most other powders would typically exhibit velocities all over the place when chronographed. Blue Dot runs standard deviations about like "standard" powders in my .223. Also, loading half a charge of powder has some economic advantage in these days of high component prices ! | |||
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Thanks mate ! More food for thought. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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And you may become the "next" Blue Dot Ka-Boom. Already had two Ka-Booms and at least 5 people mention how erratic the Powder becomes when used incorrectly as described. Best of luck to you folks. | |||
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