Piece is a .357 S&W 640 Centenial with a 2-1/8 barrel. Load is 7.4 grs. Unique behind a 125 jacketed HP. The manual lists this as the starting (minimum?) charge. The primers are flattened pretty bad and the cases won't fall out of the cylinder after pushing on the extracter rod. The cases slide out easy enough, however, I have to manually pluck them with my hand as they hang-up at the neck (?) a little bit. I tried a heavier charge (7.9) as I thought I might be having a detonation issue. Heavier was worse! Do I dare go lower? (as I think I should) The manual warns that it is dangerous to go lower than published loads. Really need advice. I don't have enough know-how on this one.

Double check 4 things; that the setting on the scale was really for 7.4 gr. That the powder thrower was really throwing 7.4 gr. That the powder really was Unique. And last, that the bullets really were 125 gr bullets.

Any one of those things could cause the problem.

Larry Gibson

quote:

The manual warns that it is dangerous to go lower than published loads

That refers to single base powders, particularly, slow large rifle powders. Double base powders - Unique is a double base powder - do not have detonation issues. Nor do faster single base powders (large pistol powders like H4227). Double base powders are flake powders. The biggest danger of under loading with double base powders is that there is insufficient powder to drive the bullet out the barrel resulting in a bullet lodged in the bore!

But please hang on until more folks offer answers. Good luck!

Edited: Larry got there first. Good points!

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
Piece is a .357 S&W 640 Centenial ...the cases won't fall out of the cylinder after pushing on the extracter rod. The cases ... hang-up at the neck (?) a little bit. ....

The old S&Ws(made when clinton mob was in office and before) were known to be a bit more stretchable in the cylinders than about any reliable revolver being sold. They were still fine revolvers, but just couldn't handle the Pressure that other manufacturers designed for.

However, I doubt that has a thing to do with your problem. It sounds like you or someone shot 38Spls in the revolver at some point and did not get all the Residue out of the cylinder. It builds up at the end of the 38Spl Case Mouth and can "appear" to be removed, but it is still there and burnished over.

There are a good number of things you can try to remove the old Carbon Ring. There is a special cloth that has Lead/Carbon removing chemicals on it which will absolutely cut through the residue. Can't remember the name of it, but good Gun Shops stock it and the color of the cloth is a light orange before use. Solid Black after use and it will cut the Residue in the Cylinder as well as on the end of the Cylinder.

Easier to find is the Hoppe's Tornado Brush. It is a "Coiled Wire" Stainless Steel Brush which will also remove the Carbon Ring. Since the wire is Coiled, it will not harm the Cylinder as a Stainless "Bristle Style" Brush would do. Just use any of the good Bore Cleaners with it like Sweet's 7.62, the Barnes stuff, JB Compound, or Hoppe's BenchRest.

I do not use the Tornado Brush in the Bore, because it can not get into the junction of the Lands and Grooves well enough to clean that area properly. You still need a Brass Bristle Brush in the Bore.

As usual, Flat Primers can be an indication of High Pressure, or it may be normal for that particular brand. The only way to know if your Pressure is Safe is to use PRE.

You all can avoid using PRE all you want, but until you use it, you are only guessing at what is Safe and what isn't.
-----

I'm not addressing the actual Load being used, because I don't believe I've used Unique in a 357Mag.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

The manual warns that it is dangerous to go lower than published loads

That refers to single base powders, particularly, slow large rifle powders. Double base powders - Unique is a double base powder - do not have detonation issues. Nor do faster single base powders (large pistol powders like H4227). Double base powders are flake powders. The biggest danger of under loading with double base powders is that there is insufficient powder to drive the bullet out the barrel resulting in a bullet lodged in the bore!

But please hang on until more folks offer answers. Good luck!

Edited: Larry got there first. Good points!

I don't agree with several points in this post. H870 is a double base spherical rifle poiwder that I would not severely underload in a rifle, same with BLC2, then there is H110/W296 and the old W785, which are all double based. I don't think that true detonation has ever been proven in smokeless powders, but possibly suspected in one single base/some lots anyways- and that would be H322/IMR 8208. I suspect what is being called detonation is actually an SEE, secondary explosion effect. .02

You could have a couple of problems. Please ceck the things Larry Gibson suggested. Also, if you'r primer pockets are a little loose, the primers will back out and flatten out. If someone had also been shooting 38s in the gun, the brass may be hanging on the residue. These things suggesting a higher pressure sharge than you actually have, but you have to find out what is going on.

Change brand of primers and try the same load to see what changes. Primer flatness is not a good safe for sure sign to determine if your load is hot, but does go along with other high pressure signs which I won't get into. I find CCI primer cups on the hard side for example. Good idea as mentioned to make sure your cylinders are clean and also the bore. See if the bore has any jacket fouling and clean if it does. Gibson gave you some good pointers also.

quote:

I don't agree with several points in this post. H870 is a double base spherical rifle poiwder

I stand corrected! What should have said was that flake powders are double base. Pistol and shotgun. But now I am wondering whether that is correct. Are all flake powder double base? My point 'though was that pistol powders don't detonate at lower charges (Maybe at higher charges!)

I thought that SEE was the cause of 'detonation'?


I do agree with what Larry Gibson said. Hot Core has a point too. Did all the fired cases behave the same and look the same? One great danger of using Unique in a 357 Mag is the very small amount of powder. A double charge is hard to detect and easy to do!

quote:

The cases slide out easy enough, however, I have to manually pluck them with my hand as they hang-up at the neck (?) a little bit.

The 'carbon ring' can't be causing the hanging up - the cases slide out easily enough untill they hang up on the necks. This sounds odd - no? I would expect the ejector rod to dislodge the cases after which they should just drop out. Any chance there may be reamer marks in the chambers allowing the necks to expand too much?

The gun is brand new.Never fired .38s through it.Only .357s.I use win. small pistol primers.Larry,I am very careful at the loading bench. Only components at hand are the ones I need for the caliber I am currently loading.Yes,the charge and powder are correct,as well as said bullet.ALL other components are kept in the cabinet so as to not mix them.I treat all the hand loading processes as if my life depended on them.Though I have been reloading for 20+ years,I feel like a novice as there are many things about reloading I truly do not understand.Also,a double drop is not probable, as I use a single stage press.Drop the powder charge and seat the bullet immediatly.No exceptions!Ever.
One thing that I failed to mention was the first time I shot this piece,I grabbed loads that were made for a 4" S@W 686.9.0 grs. unique,125 gr.HP.-BIG MISTAKE!!!-I had to rubber mallot the extactor a little.Man,was I pissed.I knew better and shot them anyway.
Could firing those over-max loads have caused a problem?I am going to clean her real good as she has 100 rds through her now.I am still looking for a flat primer solution though.Please keep the suggestions coming.

I used to load this way. I do not any more. The reason is simple - I make mistakes. So does my powder measure.
First the powder measure. Sometimes static causes the powder to bunch up in the dropping spout. Some powder goes into the case. Some stays in the spout. The next case get that amount plus the normal charge.
Then come my mistakes. All goes well, I get the rythm, then without noticing, one case goes empty and gets its bullet seated. On the range that empty one gets fired last and when nothing happens, one just thinks the last shot had already been fired. The next cylinder full blows a bulge in the barrel! Auto's do this very easily. My solution is to work all the cases as a batch. Fired cases neck down. Primed cases neck down. Charged case neck up. Inspect each case for powder level as a batch. Any irregularities become apparent. Especially if one is empty. Then and only then do I seat the bullets. I have stopped myself from loading empty, half charged, over-charged and primerless cases far too many times to give up this routine! That's just me. I learned it from the reloading manuals but only understood it when I had to dislodge a bullet up the bore which ruined my days shoot and then had to unload the whole batch which involved sizing loaded rounds to squash the bullets to get them out.

I use a very similar load in 38 Special case to demonstrate the effects of powder position in a half-filled case. It shows 18K psi with powder forward and 27K psi with powder back.

Ken O

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

I don't agree with several points in this post. H870 is a double base spherical rifle poiwder

I stand corrected! What should have said was that flake powders are double base. Pistol and shotgun. But now I am wondering whether that is correct. Are all flake powder double base? My point 'though was that pistol powders don't detonate at lower charges (Maybe at higher charges!)

I thought that SEE was the cause of 'detonation'?


I do agree with what Larry Gibson said. Hot Core has a point too. Did all the fired cases behave the same and look the same? One great danger of using Unique in a 357 Mag is the very small amount of powder. A double charge is hard to detect and easy to do!

quote:

The cases slide out easy enough, however, I have to manually pluck them with my hand as they hang-up at the neck (?) a little bit.

The 'carbon ring' can't be causing the hanging up - the cases slide out easily enough untill they hang up on the necks. This sounds odd - no? I would expect the ejector rod to dislodge the cases after which they should just drop out. Any chance there may be reamer marks in the chambers allowing the necks to expand too much?

No, all flake powders are not double base, SR4756 and SR 7625 come to mind.
My point is that no smokeless powder has ever been proven to detonate, it burns even when confined. In this respect, smokeless powder differs from high explosives such as dynamite. Dynamite is made to detonate, that is to change from solid state to gaseous state with intense heat at such rapid rate that shock waves are sent through any medium in contact, shattering it, the reaction is too fast for gases to be vented away. An SEE is nothing more than a bore obstruction caused by the projectile moving to engage the rifling, then powder slows/pressure drops and bullet lodges in the throat, pressure builds and powder begins burning at accelerated rate- bomb, not detonation, just pressure. .02

quote:

bomb, not detonation, just pressure. .02

But isn't that what is being labelled as 'detonation'? (Detonation is when the explosive 'burns' at the speed of sound in that medium ie the speed of the shock wave passing throught the detonating medium). 'Detonation' also occures in internal combustion engines. That is when spontaineous ignition occurs at a different point from the spark and as a result of heat and pressure from the original ignition. That is not actually detonation either.

I have seen this "powder slows/pressure drops - pressure builds and powder begins burning at accelerated rate" effect in a Martini-Henry loaded with a powder in the IMR3031 class. It would do a 'fizz-bang' thing! Take that a few steps further and we could have an incorrectly labelled 'detonation'. (I cannot help wondering how many so called 'detonations' from low charges of slow rifle powders were actually caused by a bullet lodging in the bore due to insufficient powder, followed by another 'light' load).

The term "detonation" is wrong. Yes SEE is a pressure spike but it is a spike in the wrong direction. Once the bullet moves out, with out a powder burn sufficient to keep the bullet moving and the bullet wants to stop, the powder pressure will reverse to the rear and blow the back of the case. Good neck tension, large sharp shoulders and a bullet close to the rifling can help prevent it but when a very slow powder is reduced it will still have too much airspace, the charge moves forward and once lit pressure will try to move to the rear because that is where the least resistance is and where the airspace now is.
Several things make it worse. One is a long throat like the Swede or Weatherby chambers with a long freebore. Too easy to pop a bullet loose too early. Then using a primer with a lot of pressure but low heat can push a bullet quite a ways up the bore. A light bullet for the caliber doesn't help much either.
Anything you do to increase airspace with a slow to ignite and burn powder can cause you trouble.
My friend and I both had an SEE event with our Swede's using the standard load of 46 gr of 4831. Primers were more or less gone and the pockets were huge. It took a mallet to open the bolts. No damage to the guns however. We both had shot that super accurate load for years. I changed to a good load of Varget.
No one knows how common SEE would be in a revolver with slow powders, smaller cases like the .44 mag used with magnum primers, combined with poor neck tension and lighter bullets. Hardly anyone realizes how many bullets are moved out of the case into the forcing cone or barrel before the powder gets going. The cylinder gap is the only life saver here and the effect goes unnoticed except for very poor accuracy. If you notice the warnings about downloading the slow powders, you will understand. Very fast pistol or shotgun powders make whatever you do safe but when a guy has very poor results with the slow powders in his revolver, there will be 1,000,000 answers posted by those that do not understand the revolver. You can not do the same with slow powders that you do with fast powders. You can not soften the boolit, you can not reduce neck tension, you can not use a primer with more pressure because you are creating the SEE event with every shot and the gap stops damage!
Once you get it right, maybe you will shoot the revolver groups we get! Some hit it by accident and post good groups but I can count them with half my fingers on one hand. No one else on any sight will post revolver groups and as soon as I post pictures, the thread will die.
I try to help but until everyone understands that the boolit is moving when it should not and every shot has a different airspace, the answer will always be that the revolver just can't shoot. You MUST treat the revolver the same as a rifle with freebore and slow powders. Without the cylinder gap there would be a lot of blown up revolvers when slow powders are used.

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
Piece is a .357 S&W 640 Centenial with a 2-1/8 barrel. Load is 7.4 grs. Unique behind a 125 jacketed HP. The manual lists this as the starting (minimum?) charge. The primers are flattened pretty bad and the cases won't fall out of the cylinder after pushing on the extracter rod. The cases slide out easy enough, however, I have to manually pluck them with my hand as they hang-up at the neck (?) a little bit. I tried a heavier charge (7.9) as I thought I might be having a detonation issue. Heavier was worse! Do I dare go lower? (as I think I should) The manual warns that it is dangerous to go lower than published loads. Really need advice. I don't have enough know-how on this one.

I agree to double check your scale settings. But, another thing comes to mind... is your powder turning rancid?

I use Unique for numberous loads, including the 357. It is one of the most "forgiving" powders out there. Still, if it smells acrid, instead of a sweet ether oder, then it may be decomposing and ready to be spread around the back yard as fertilizer. Something is seriously out of sorts.

Very interesting, bfrshooter. prplbkrr is loading Unique in a 357 which I would emagine is not suffering the effects you describe, maybe it is powder turning rancid as mike_elmer suggests. I am very curious to know exactly what is causing the problem here. I used to shoot a 44 mag with 'large pistol powder' (MP300 - similar H4227) and never considered the possibility of SEE. I did find that softer lead bullets shot better than hard. The hard ones looked great but after recovering a few I realized they were not upsetting and sealing the bore, resulting in the groove part of the bullet being cut smaller than the bore part! Those ugly soft bullets did not flame cut. I had no idea that powder position could cause a pressure wave rearwards! Might I ask you to start a thread specifically discussing SEE?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

My solution is to work all the cases as a batch. Fired cases neck down. Primed cases neck down. Charged case neck up. Inspect each case for powder level as a batch. Any irregularities become apparent. Especially if one is empty. Then and only then do I seat the bullets. :

Send me your mailing address and I will send you tools that will help you. roger

quote:

us

Posted 22 February 2009 21:12 Hide Post
Very interesting, bfrshooter. prplbkrr is loading Unique in a 357 which I would emagine is not suffering the effects you describe, maybe it is powder turning rancid as mike_elmer suggests. I am very curious to know exactly what is causing the problem here. I used to shoot a 44 mag with 'large pistol powder' (MP300 - similar H4227) and never considered the possibility of SEE. I did find that softer lead bullets shot better than hard. The hard ones looked great but after recovering a few I realized they were not upsetting and sealing the bore, resulting in the groove part of the bullet being cut smaller than the bore part! Those ugly soft bullets did not flame cut. I had no idea that powder position could cause a pressure wave rearwards! Might I ask you to start a thread specifically discussing SEE? beer

You do not want the boolit to upset and seal the bore. You want the boolit to be large enough to seal to start with. Obturation does not make a boolit accurate. Soft lead boolits turn to putty and deform, slump and even throw lead out of the gap.
You want the boolit to be just the same shape as you cast it when it hits the target.
The softer you make a revolver boolit, the less case tension can be used because the brass will size the boolit down when you seat the boolit. Now the boolit is too small and a crimp will scrape it even more. What you wind up with is a need for the boolit to expand to fit the bore.
Please, all of you that think it is right, send me 50, 100 and 500 meter groups to prove you are right! Alien crap to be sure!
The other thing that is wrong is when you use loads of fast powder with dead soft boolits. The pressure is there RIGHT NOW and can turn the soft boolit to a pile of slumped lead only to be reformed by the bore. What do you get at the target?
The saying I hate most is when someone says their boolits "shoot good", What is "good?"
The next worse is "I get no leading." WOW, can you hit something?
When revolver shooters stop fooling around at 7 and 25 yards, learn to find what shoots at 50, 100 and clear to 500 meters, show proof, then you will know what needs to be done.
The keyboard is a wonderful thing to hide behind. But I post pictures. My pictures ALWAYS stop the thread.

quote:

The next worse is "I get no leading." WOW, can you hit something?

May I ask what you mean by that? How does bore leading contribute to accuracy? I must admit my particular revolver was difficult enough to aim, let alone squeeze off the trigger. I considered myself lucky to be able to hit an empty beer can at 30 yds. I could not do it with every shot so could not tell how accurate my loads were but I did get better odds with the softer lead bullets. Most of my misses I could put down to shooter error! And most of my targets were bigger.

Well, if prplbkrr was careful and his loads were as stated then I have to agree with Dr. Oehler. Very much could simply be the increased in pressure from the positioning of the powder. You don't need to measure pressure to see the effects, the use of a chronograph is sufficient. In a cartridge where the volume of powder is low simply point the muzzle down and slowly raise keeping the powder in the front part of the chamber. Then raise the muzzle and slowly lower keeping the powder back. Note the difference in velocities. The velocity when the powder is positioned to the rear of the case most often produces the highest velocity, sometimes by quite a bit. This indicates there is more pressure.

However, I suspect there is something else wrong here. The reason is I have shot lighter loads than this with Unique in .357s without any indications of pressure problems. Also the fact that prplbkrr states; "I had to rubber mallot the extactor a little" using loads of 9 gr Unique (still not a max load with 125 gr bullets). A safe load in his S&W 686 should be safe in his S&W 640, both being .357s.

Since both loads exhibit pressure signs either the load(s) is in fact incorrect or the powder is not Unique (or possibly has gone bad). I'd suggest prplbkrr pull the bullets of any of those loads he has left and double check the technicals of the componants.

We all think we are very carefull and pay close attention to detail but things do happen. They've happened to me and I'm sure to most everyone reading this.

Larry Gibson

quote:

May I ask what you mean by that? How does bore leading contribute to accuracy? I must admit my particular revolver was difficult enough to aim, let alone squeeze off the trigger. I considered myself lucky to be able to hit an empty beer can at 30 yds. I could not do it with every shot so could not tell how accurate my loads were but I did get better odds with the softer lead bullets. Most of my misses I could put down to shooter error! And most of my targets were bigger.

The proper boolit fit and match to the twist along with the right alloy will not lead the bore. I never clean my guns until they are so dirty the cylinder gets hard to turn, sometimes 6 months, and no more then a few tiny flakes of lead on the first patch.
I shot these from bags when testing a pile of different boolits. My BFR .475 at 50 yd's. The large target was 200 yd's and I shot the can twice at 100 yd's. These groups are common and the gun shoots much better then I can shoot it. A miss is just my fault. Even at 100 yd's off hand, I can call every shot because the boolit goes where the red dot was. This gun has kept 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's.
My 45-70 BFR shoots even tighter groups and 1" or less is easy at 100 yd's.
I am not much good with cast and rifles because I never fooled with them much since I sold off my older lever guns years ago. My 25-20 Marlin and the 71 Winchester were amazing though. Many 3/4" groups with cast at 100 yd's. I miss them!

I forgot, the lower, center right group was shot at 100 yd's.

Oooh hoo hoo hoooo..... ! Beauty! I never had a hope in hell of doing that! Mind you, I did shoot a 100m 9 shot group with my astra Cadix 4" 22rf revolver frm a bag rest with open sights. I could cover the group with the palm of my hand. At the time I thought that was crap. Very difficult to aim - not fun actually. But that gun swaged the bullets! It had very shallow rifling. It did not seem to matter what ammo I fed it - I never doubted the gun itself. I remember once setting up a pile of empties and shooting them off, then out the stack, free hand at 25 yds. But 22rf handgun just isn't fun to shoot!

But we digress - what can prplbkrr's problem be? Larry has hinted at 'wrong' powder. Possible! This is why I am resisting having another powder type around. I have Varget/AR2208, H4227/AR2205 and Lil'Gun. No mistaking when I mix them! I use the mixed powders for light load testing and those I keep in glass jars where I can see them. And then only if I mix the two pistol powders that both behave the same in reduced rifle loads. (Now I keep my two powder measures taped down so I don't empty a doubtful throw into the wrong hopper). I don't put powder back into the can it came from - I might put it 'back' into the wrong can! I put it into an empty can.

quote:

prplbkrr

Why don't you fire one more round, but make sure that you start from a "muzzle-down" position to leave the powder forward. If you see no pressure signs, fire a few more rounds always starting from the muzzle-down position .

Ken O

quote:

The other thing that is wrong is when you use loads of fast powder with dead soft boolits. The pressure is there RIGHT NOW and can turn the soft boolit to a pile of slumped lead only to be reformed by the bore. What do you get at the target?

If that is true, please tell me how pure lead bullets out of a muzzleloader will shoot to 1", sometimes less, at 100 yards? Isn't black faster than even the fastest smokeless powder? After all, black explodes, right? I know we are talking revolvers here, but I refuse to believe a fast handgun powder turns a soft bullet into a misshapen blob, only to be re-shaped by the bore. If that is true it happens in mz barrels also.

quote:

If that is true, please tell me how pure lead bullets out of a muzzleloader will shoot to 1", sometimes less, at 100 yards? Isn't black faster than even the fastest smokeless powder? After all, black explodes, right? I know we are talking revolvers here, but I refuse to believe a fast handgun powder turns a soft bullet into a misshapen blob, only to be re-shaped by the bore. If that is true it happens in mz barrels also.

You are talking two different animals completely. In the muzzle loader you are not pushing a boolit through a throat and jamming it into a forcing cone. If you ever had to clean .38 specials after shooting dead soft wad cutters you would see it. As much lead OUTSIDE on the frame and cylinders as there is inside the barrels from lead squirting out of the gap.
Even BPCR shooters using the 45-70 and other calibers with the wrong boolits will see the boolit nose slump and recovered boolits will have rifling marks on the shortened nose along with off center slumping.
A ball or the right boolit in a muzzle loader has NO PLACE TO GO except out the bore.
Black does NOT explode! It too has a consistent burn to the end of the barrel. Load too much and much will burn out in the air at the end of the barrel. If you keep putting in more powder and shooting across a chronograph you will see velocity increases stop and actually start to go down as you push more powder weight down the bore.
I do not believe in obturation in any shape or form for ANY gun. Even a Minie' ball in a musket will shoot terrible unless it is a tight fit to start with. I lapped too many Minie' molds that turned a musket that would not keep a boolit on paper at 50 yd's to a gun that would hit targets at 200 yd's every shot to even consider letting a boolit expand to fit a gun.
I hate the expression "Make the boolit softer so it expands to fit." So you ask me the question about a boolit changing shape after everyone says the boolit will expand if soft??? Will it not also shorten, reshape to the throat and then slam into the forcing cone only to be squeezed back to the bore?
Funny thing about all of this is that not a single person here or at any other site can show accuracy or proof that it works.

I can show you what DOES work. How about a 200 yd group from a .44 mag with the proper alloy and size boolit, both to the throats and twist?
Now it is up to you to show me what a soft boolit will do!
Will my picture also kill this thread?

Doesn't that just make 25 yd groups look SICK?

O.K.I need to clarify a couple of points.The bullets are copper jacketed hollow points with an exposed lead nose.Rounds were fired "powder forward" as I had the muzzle down when loading the gun,raise the muzzle,aim,fire.
The canister of Unique was dated March 26,2008,so I would think it is still good.These loads shoot just dandy,9.0grs. in the 686,cases fall right out of the cylinder after hitting the extractor rod(?).Absolutly no problems in this gun.In the snubby,7.4 grs.load,303 guy got it right, the cases hang-up just at the case mouth.
I used a hooked paper clip to check the cylinders.There is a definite ridge where the casemouth (neck) and the bullet meet in all the cylinders.If it is caused by carbon,I can clean that,but what if its a reamer mark?

The flat primers are what bothers me. Yes you could have carbon in the chambers but I doubt reamer marks.
I would slug and measure the bore to make sure it is not way under size. Might be a problem measuring if it has 5 lands and grooves. Check cylinder timing to the bore too.
Make sure your bullet slides through clean throats too with just thumb pressure, you could have under size throats.

quote:

I know we are talking revolvers here, but I refuse to believe a fast handgun powder turns a soft bullet into a misshapen blob, only to be re-shaped by the bore.

I have gathered from these hallowed pages that when a bullet obturates or upsets and gets reformed by the bore, deformation takes place into the lube grooves and the nose slumps to one side. I should imagine the the base gives way unevenly too and that may be the worst area of deformation since that is where all the accelerating forces are being applied and is also the most critical area of the bullet as far as aerodynamic effects are concerned. The 'soft' bullets I have recovered did not show any deformation while hard ones fired in my 44 mag showed flame cutting. But then again, my bullets were not 'dead soft' nor were my loads particularly hot. And for the record, I have no 'frame-able' targets to show (that's because I couldn't) so rather go by what "He who posts real decent targets" says!
He has much to teach us.
(I didn't even know such accuracy was possible!)

quote:

The canister of Unique was dated March 26,2008,so I would think it is still good.These loads shoot just dandy,9.0grs. in the 686,cases fall right out of the cylinder after hitting the extractor rod(?).Absolutly no problems in this gun.

Well, that rules out quite a few things. The only clue here is that the snubby is being fed lighter loads! And, oh, if there was any question of double loads, the likelyhood of every load being so doubled would be somewhat 'unlikely'! So what what the heck is going on? prplbkrr, is there any chance of taking the gun to an expert to check out? The gun manufacturer or a good pistol smith?

I agree! I use some powder that is at least 53 years old and it is still good. A tight seal and stored in cool dry conditions, a powder is good for hundreds of years. I used to buy surplus powder in 40# kegs and shot the stuff for years and years without a change.
I think the problem is mechanical with that gun.

I bought a Vaquero long ago, the heavy one, and at 25 yd's it was hard to hold paper. I wanted to hunt deer with it so I bought and made molds for heavy boolits. Nothing shot for beans so I slugged the gun. Throats were way too small so I lapped them for a perfect fit to my boolits. It now shoots the LBT 335 gr and the Lyman 325 gr (Actual cast weight is 347 gr.) very well. I have shot 1" groups at 75 yd's and dropped deer to over 100 yd's off hand.
Here are 5 shots from a Creedmore position at 50 yd's. This with the crude open sights too, with my old eyes.
Boolits are 22 BHN, water dropped WW metal with added antimony and tin. Felix lube, 21.5 gr of 296 and the Federal 150 primer.

I cleaned up the cylinders with a hoppes tornado brush and Sweets(thanks Hot Core)then gave the rest of her a good cleaning.Behind the ejection star(you know,the thingy that pushes the cases out of the cylinders)there was a lot of gunk,so much on fact, I THINK that when the firing pin hit the primer it was pushing the cases forward before the primer ignited thus flatting the primers.Does that make sense to you.
After I cleaned it I re adjusted my die.Perhaps the crimp was not set-up correctly?Rechecked my scale.That was O.K.Loaded up 10 rds.,went out back(in the dark )and fired them off. Shot 5 with the powder forward,to the bullet,then 5 with the powder at the back at the primer,as suggested.ALL of the cases fell right out.No hang-ups at all.Primers looked fine. Since I did a number of corrective steps without shooting between them, I'll never know what my real problem was.Everything seems to be O.K. now. Thank you all for your input.This really had me stumped.

quote:

ALL of the cases fell right out.No hang-ups at all.Primers looked fine.

That's the good news! The bad news is that now we don't know what caused it!

bfrshooter, there's nothing wrong with your eyes! I do note, however, that you might have had a bit of sunlight glint on your foresight - slight vertical aiming error! Not too much mind you! Keep those target pictures coming - really good to see (and motivating too!) Now, if I could get my rifle to shoot like that - from a rest!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
... The bad news is that now we don't know what caused it! ...

I do.

Hey prplbkrr, That has to be a tough name to pronounce!

I believe bfrshooter or someone mentioned the Carbon Ring will happen even with 357Mag cases. I've given it a lot of thought since reading that and just have not experienced it myself. But, that does not mean I disagree with him.

At least 25 years ago I'd gone to the Range and a young fellow was having the same problem you were and also in a S&W. Couldn't imagine what was going on at first, but a hard look in his cylinder told the story.

I carry plenty of Cleaning Equipment to the Range and let him use my stuff(Tornado Brush) to scrub the cylinder for awhile. When he got it all polished up and we looked at it again, it looked fine, but was still hanging just a bit - surprised me. So, he scrubbed it again. This time it got the Carbon Ring out and just like you the Cases fell from the Chamber.

Also understand about the Crud under the Extraction Star.
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I'd encourage you to re-read Dr. Oehler's posts and take them very seriously. I also use Down-Loads, but I'm very selective about the ones I use, with due consideration to the problem Dr. Oehler mentioned.

Glad you got it fixed. Now go shoot some groups like bfrshooter and make me look like I can't shoot at all. Thank goodness we are not shooting to see who buys Supper.

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Glad you got it fixed. Now go shoot some groups like bfrshooter and make me look like I can't shoot at all. Thank goodness we are not shooting to see who buys Supper.

Too true! But I would by bfrshooter a beer any day!

I've been out shooting possum and rabbit with my buddies and they have convinced me I can't shoot either! Hey, these guys can shoot! Mind you, shooting with them has improved my shooting a bit - can't miss in front of them now can I? At least with my 22 Sportmaster Remington I know it is not the rifle!.