Can you please explain the reason for the duplex loads? I have heard about these before an no one would explain their reason for use.

quote:

Originally posted by tomme boy:
Can you please explain the reason for the duplex loads? I have heard about these before an no one would explain their reason for use.

To get a powder that is really too slow for the cartridge to burn efficiently enough to then be useable in that cartridge. In other words it burns cleanly (leaves now unburned powder kernels), gets the velocity you want, and has a low SD.

So basically the faster powder is really acting like the primer that has a lot more volume to help the slower powder burn completely. Now, what are we talking, like 2-4 grains?

quote:

Originally posted by tomme boy:
So basically the faster powder is really acting like the primer that has a lot more volume to help the slower powder burn completely. Now, what are we talking, like 2-4 grains?

Well it's obvious that the amount of booster depends on both the burning speed of it and the size of the cartridge..that is how much the main charge weighs.

quote:

Originally posted by tomme boy:
So basically the faster powder is really acting like the primer that has a lot more volume to help the slower powder burn completely. Now, what are we talking, like 2-4 grains?

Basically you got it. The proportion and relative burn rate of the booster is entirely dependent upon the type of powder used for the main charge and the cartridge case capacity. Much of this is a "trial and error" thing, and can be very dangerous if you don't have a good idea of what you're doing. The problem, obviously, is figuring that out. Joe and 45 2.1 have a lot of experience with this and may be willing to assist you on a specific application, but due to the inherent dangers of this, especially in an open internet forum, might want to take it to PM with specifics.

Basically the reasoning for going to extremes with powder burn rate, kicker charges/slow powder, and blending powders is to manage the pressure curve for cast bullet shooting in such a way that the bullet experiences less damage at engraving and under acceleration than with powders which one would "normally" consider appropriate for the cartridge/bullet combination, especially at very high velocity/peak pressure.

Since barrel harmonics is a key to high-velocity consistency, and such vibrations (both longitudinal and lateral) are established at the origin of the pressure rise, the consistency of the initial combustion of these slower powders and uniformity of the rate of pressure rise are essential to repeatable groupings. A kicker charge is employed to give a solid intital combustion without spiking the pressure too much (IF done properly), and I've found is sometimes better than using a high-brisance primer.

Gear

Okay, here's what it comes down to with a fast twist AR 15 such as the 7 twist. It has much to do with your alloy. The alloys that aren't up to the task won't get the accuracy. So you need a tougher alloy. By tougher I don't mean harder. Harder won't really do it unless you change to an entirely different bullet that's not jacketed or solid copper and that's zine. I would like a cast bullet that can still be used for hunting and expand. That rules out harder. Alloys such as linotype are also very brittle. So I'm in a search for a tougher alloy and I believe that to be one that has a low percentage of copper in it. The thing that is actually causing the problems is pressure. I believe the faster twist increases the pressure. Pressure is more damaging to the bullet the smaller the diameter it is. So .224 takes a beating trying to push it past it's pressure rating.

SmokinJ - You probably already answered this and I just didn't see it...but, about how much copper are you talking about in the proposed alloy...percentage-wise?

(I have had some really miserable casting sessions trying to use lead alloys contaminated with copper.)

If you want to pursue this line, you might want to look at varous primary metal producers' alloy charts, such as those by Olin (Winchester) and others. They provide very extensive charts listing all the properties of the available alloys for various industrial users. Just use your search engine with the words lead alloy charts, lead-copper alloy charts, or copper alloy charts. You'll get a very interesting variety of information.

Another possibility worth researching is Bismuth-Copper alloys.

Anyway, here is a site you may fnd interesting. Even if they have nothing which meets your needs, reading the site may suggest other more fruitful searches for you.

http://www.nuclead.com/clbullets.html

Nuclead not only makes bullets, they also provide specially custom formulated "lead alloys" in bricks made to the users' formulaeic specifications.

And here's another

http://images.search.yahoo.com...+copper+alloy+charts

and another

http://www.keytometals.com/article10.htm

AC thanks for the input. I'm aware where to get the alloy. I'm talking about .5 to no more then 1.5 percent. I haven't tested it thoroughly yet and have another friend who is currently testing it. I'm after more then just to be able to get accuracy with a tougher alloy, I can do that with jacketed, I'm wanting something that has good expansion for hunting. I've heard a higher content of copper in the alloy doesn't blend well.

You mention that you have been doing your trials with WD 50/50. Have you tried HT it yet to see if it will stand the hv. It may give a tougher outer layer that withstands the fast twist a little more than the WD version.I found it did in my 404 although only by 60-75 fps, and would another % of tin not toughen it enough with HT as well.

I've tried the WD 50/50 as you mentioned, then I hardened that up with a little linotype, and I followed with a home blend of a copper alloy. None worked. The only thing that has boosted the velocity by 200 fps or more was powder blending. I'm certain the .224's smaller diameter is the bigger part of the problem with the pressure in the 7 twist. I'm seriously thinking about paper patching a few test bullets to see what happens.
WD 50/50 if cast on the hot side and dropped fast and then aged is just about like HT.

you can get a higher percentage of copper to stay soluble in the alloy with a higher percentage of tin.
a 3-1 number tin/copper seems to work best.
i was able to get 3% copper and 10% tin alloy to work very well for casting.
you do want some antimony in the alloy about 7% worked very well in the above.
this was the max amount i was able to cast and shoot very well.
you have to also control your tin oxidization [oxygen barrier] as the alloy did need some higher heat [@ 775-f] to work for me.
i used crushed kitty litter and burned saw dust, i kept tossing some boolt lube on to of the mix when i seen things gloming together on top.

the extra copper/tin in the solution made a matrix on the surface of the alloy as the boolit cooled.
in effect making a copper jaxket from within.
the extra tin allowed the copper to break through the alloy,and alowed the tin/copper chain to break away from the sbsn chain it was associated with when in the hot alloy.
the extra heat in the casting allows the longer coolng time needed for the copper matrix to form on the surface of the boolit.

joe if you wanna mess with thngs further try a zink [gasp the horror]- copper alloy
with plain ol ww's and some tin.
something like 1% tin 1% zink .50% copper and the 3% antimony. the arsenic in the ww's adds back to the grain refiner you take away by adding the extra tin.
you get a much harder tougher boolit than you'll get otherwise.
something like 15 bhn air cooled, but flexible enough to bend and mash when needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
the extra copper/tin in the solution made a matrix on the surface of the alloy as the boolit cooled.
in effect making a copper jaxket from within.
the extra tin allowed the copper to break through the alloy,and alowed the tin/copper chain to break away from the sbsn chain it was associated with when in the hot alloy.
the extra heat in the casting allows the longer coolng time needed for the copper matrix to form on the surface of the boolit.

joe if you wanna mess with thngs further try a zink [gasp the horror]- copper alloy
with plain ol ww's and some tin.
something like 1% tin 1% zink .50% copper and the 3% antimony. the arsenic in the ww's adds back to the grain refiner you take away by adding the extra tin.
you get a much harder tougher boolit than you'll get otherwise.
something like 15 bhn air cooled, but flexible enough to bend and mash when needed.

Lamar,

I was thinking exactly about what you just said to try.

quote:

you can get a higher percentage of copper to stay soluble in the alloy with a higher percentage of tin.
a 3-1 number tin/copper seems to work best.
i was able to get 3% copper and 10% tin alloy to work very well for casting.
you do want some antimony in the alloy about 7% worked very well in the above.
this was the max amount i was able to cast and shoot very well.
you have to also control your tin oxidization [oxygen barrier] as the alloy did need some higher heat [@ 775-f] to work for me.
i used crushed kitty litter and burned saw dust, i kept tossing some boolt lube on to of the mix when i seen things gloming together on top.

Interesting mixture, it was once called Ideal #1. I'm working on some.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Wolfenheimer:

quote:

you can get a higher percentage of copper to stay soluble in the alloy with a higher percentage of tin.
a 3-1 number tin/copper seems to work best.
i was able to get 3% copper and 10% tin alloy to work very well for casting.
you do want some antimony in the alloy about 7% worked very well in the above.
this was the max amount i was able to cast and shoot very well.
you have to also control your tin oxidization [oxygen barrier] as the alloy did need some higher heat [@ 775-f] to work for me.
i used crushed kitty litter and burned saw dust, i kept tossing some boolt lube on to of the mix when i seen things gloming together on top.

Interesting mixture, it was once called Ideal #1. I'm working on some.

None of this alloy stuff is new as you've found out. I can tell you this, EDD is wrong that the limit for 50/50 is 2400 fps. Ask me how I know. They aren't exactly correct that the problem, which they are trying to resolve, is nose slump. There's more too it then that.

The CU alloy isn't any good except for shooting holes in targets and possibly solids for big dangerous game.... or should I say just shooting holes in critters? Even with a flat meplat I don't don't think velocity will cure harvesting critters with it. I also think it's a crutch for not being able to achieve the HV with the softer alloys.

One of the denisons of CB made the statement that the only way to shoot a 200 grain bullet or heavier in the velocity range of 2200 to 2600 fps or more is with paper patching. That fellow needs to see my Garand testing going on at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
[QUOTE]
None of this alloy stuff is new as you've found out. I can tell you this, EDD is wrong that the limit for 50/50 is 2400 fps. Ask me how I know. They aren't exactly correct that the problem, which they are trying to resolve, is nose slump. There's more too it then that.
The Cu alloy isn't any good except for shooting holes in targets and possibly solids for big and dangerous game.... or should I say just shooting holes in critters? Even with a flat meplat I don't don't think velocity will cure harvesting critters with it. I also think it's a crutch for not being able to achieve the HV with the softer alloys.

One of the denisons of CB made the statement that the only way to shoot a 200 grain bullet or heavier in the velocity range of 2200 to 2600 fps or more is with paper patching. That fellow needs to see my Garand testing going on at the moment.

Have you seen this thread Joe?
It appears these Cu alloyed cast bullet can and do kill nicely, even a punny little 7 TCU shooting 135gr. bullets..

http://castboolits.gunloads.co...7TCU-Carbine-Venison

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
[QUOTE]
None of this alloy stuff is new as you've found out. I can tell you this, EDD is wrong that the limit for 50/50 is 2400 fps. Ask me how I know. They aren't exactly correct that the problem, which they are trying to resolve, is nose slump. There's more too it then that.
The Cu alloy isn't any good except for shooting holes in targets and possibly solids for big and dangerous game.... or should I say just shooting holes in critters? Even with a flat meplat I don't don't think velocity will cure harvesting critters with it. I also think it's a crutch for not being able to achieve the HV with the softer alloys.

One of the denisons of CB made the statement that the only way to shoot a 200 grain bullet or heavier in the velocity range of 2200 to 2600 fps or more is with paper patching. That fellow needs to see my Garand testing going on at the moment.

Have you seen this thread Joe?
It appears these Cu alloyed cast bullet can and do kill nicely, even a punny little 7 TCU shooting 135gr. bullets..

http://castboolits.gunloads.co...7TCU-Carbine-Venison

Yessir I have and I've also shot a lot of harder tougher alloys. I've also shot a lot of critters with the 50/50 alloy with both 22, 6mm, and 6.5 caliber bullets at very high velocities and wasn't impressed with the damage and exit would hole sizes for what is a much softer alloy then the CU stuff.

The hydraulic shock on water jugs with basically solids is impressive especially as the velocity goes up, but it just doesn't quite work that way on shooting game.

That alloy they "think" they discovered isn't new. Been around for a very long time. So tell me then why it isn't what is recommended for hunting?

[/QUOTE]
Yessir I have and I've also shot a lot of harder tougher alloys. I've also shot a lot of critters with the 50/50 alloy with both 22, 6mm, and 6.5 caliber bullets at very high velocities and wasn't impressed with the damage and exit would hole sizes for what is a much softer alloy then the CU stuff.

The hydraulic shock on water jugs with basically solids is impressive especially as the velocity goes up, but it just doesn't quite work that way on shooting game.

That alloy they "think" they discovered isn't new.Been around for a very long time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see where Edd is claiming discovery of Cu alloy bullets.
Read post #46 this thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.co...enriched-alloy/page2
--------------------------------------------


So tell me then why it isn't what is recommended for hunting?
-----------------------------------------------

Why what isn't recommend for hunting?
Solids?
If so who says these bullets have to be solids.
Use your imagination.
Seems to me that there are a lot of high dollar mono metal bullets out there used for hunting now..
[/QUOTE]

When you get around to it why not share your high velocity Garand loading techniques and loads.
I don't have a Garand but I do have several 30-06's including a 03A3 that I would like to load cast for this summer if I have time.
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:

Yessir I have and I've also shot a lot of harder tougher alloys. I've also shot a lot of critters with the 50/50 alloy with both 22, 6mm, and 6.5 caliber bullets at very high velocities and wasn't impressed with the damage and exit would hole sizes for what is a much softer alloy then the CU stuff.

The hydraulic shock on water jugs with basically solids is impressive especially as the velocity goes up, but it just doesn't quite work that way on shooting game.

That alloy they "think" they discovered isn't new.Been around for a very long time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see where Edd is claiming discovery of Cu alloy bullets.
Read post #46 this thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.co...enriched-alloy/page2
--------------------------------------------


So tell me then why it isn't what is recommended for hunting?
-----------------------------------------------

Why what isn't recommend for hunting?
Solids?
If so who says these bullets have to be solids.
Use your imagination.
Seems to me that there are a lot of high dollar mono metal bullets out there used for hunting now..
[/QUOTE]

When you get around to it why not share your high velocity Garand loading techniques and loads.
I don't have a Garand but I do have several 30-06's including a 03A3 that I would like to load cast for this summer if I have time.
Thanks[/QUOTE]

You took the EDD and CU the wrong way. It could have been better put by me if saying it's been around for a long time.

By solids I meant it acts like solids which I refer to as generally a very hard tough bullet for dangerous African game.

I shot a whitetail deer with a 32 Special using a 175 grain 50/50 alloy bullet that was water quenched from the mould. The deer was at exactly 100 yards from me. It was facing me at an angle. The bullet entered the right side of the chest and exited the left ham. Yes the deer just dropped right there. The bullet reeked havoc through the deer, but didn't ruin any edible portions of mean including the ham. How would have a CU alloy bullet performed any better?

Quote>> By solids I meant it acts like solids which I refer to as generally a very hard tough bullet for dangerous African game.
Yes I know that but like I said before there are at least 6 brands of mono-metal HP bullets on the market that are used every day for hunting.
Plus from I am reading in Edd's post you can cut the Cu alloy with Pb to suit your needs.
Heck you have a way wilder imagination that I do so I am sure if you put your mind to it you can over come any of the problems you perceive with this alloy.
You won't because you are happy with what you are doing I suspect.
Personally I am pretty happy with straight wheel wts. or 50/50 because 100 yds. is a long shot for me so I don't need a lot of velocity to flatten out my trajectory.
Still going to test/experiment with Cu alloy though mostly in the sub 30cal. cartridges and especially in the .223 just for grins.***
I won't hunt with them until I have done some testing on wet news print and water jugs assuming I can come up with and accurate load to begin with.


I shot a whitetail deer with a 32 Special using a 175 grain 50/50 alloy bullet that was water quenched from the mould. The deer was at exactly 100 yards from me. It was facing me at an angle. The bullet entered the right side of the chest and exited the left ham. Yes the deer just dropped right there. The bullet reeked havoc through the deer, but didn't ruin any edible portions of mean including the ham. How would have a CU alloy bullet performed any better?
Well ya got me there eh?
But then again I always figured that the .32 Special was a low vel. round.
I use a NOE 326407 187grs in 50/50 over H414 in mine. Still in the testing stage but from 33 to 36grs I am holding 1.7" at 100 using a Lyman receiver site in a barely pre-64 M94.
Looking at my load book I still have targets for 37grs to test. I got the idea of using H414 from reading John Korts (w30wcf) threads on shooting the 30-30 at 1000 yards.
Anyway Joe I think the reason people are going beyond or past 50/50 and adding Cu is that they just didn't have the luck, for the most part, that you and Bobby have had with it at high vel.

Anyway keep posting your testing and experiments.
Interesting reading always!

And forget about what Larry and the rest of us dummies are doing.
It'll drive ya to drinking for sure...



So can I assume that you are using H4895 and a tuff of Dacron in your Garand? <grin>

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
Quote>> By solids I meant it acts like solids which I refer to as generally a very hard tough bullet for dangerous African game.
Yes I know that but like I said before there are at least 6 brands of mono-metal HP bullets on the market that are used every day for hunting.
Plus from I am reading in Edd's post you can cut the Cu alloy with Pb to suit your needs.
Heck you have a way wilder imagination that I do so I am sure if you put your mind to it you can over come any of the problems you perceive with this alloy.
You won't because you are happy with what you are doing I suspect.
Personally I am pretty happy with straight wheel wts. or 50/50 because 100 yds. is a long shot for me so I don't need a lot of velocity to flatten out my trajectory.
Still going to test/experiment with Cu alloy though mostly in the sub 30cal. cartridges and especially in the .223 just for grins.***
I won't hunt with them until I have done some testing on wet news print and water jugs assuming I can come up with and accurate load to begin with.


I shot a whitetail deer with a 32 Special using a 175 grain 50/50 alloy bullet that was water quenched from the mould. The deer was at exactly 100 yards from me. It was facing me at an angle. The bullet entered the right side of the chest and exited the left ham. Yes the deer just dropped right there. The bullet reeked havoc through the deer, but didn't ruin any edible portions of mean including the ham. How would have a CU alloy bullet performed any better?
Well ya got me there eh?
But then again I always figured that the .32 Special was a low vel. round.
I use a NOE 326407 187grs in 50/50 over H414 in mine. Still in the testing stage but from 33 to 36grs I am holding 1.7" at 100 using a Lyman receiver site in a barely pre-64 M94.
Looking at my load book I still have targets for 37grs to test. I got the idea of using H414 from reading John Korts (w30wcf) threads on shooting the 30-30 at 1000 yards.
Anyway Joe I think the reason people are going beyond or past 50/50 and adding Cu is that they just didn't have the luck, for the most part, that you and Bobby have had with it at high vel.

Anyway keep posting your testing and experiments.
Interesting reading always!

And forget about what Larry and the rest of us dummies are doing.
It'll drive ya to drinking for sure...



So can I assume that you are using H4895 and a tuff of Dacron in your Garand? <grin>

I'm agreeable to what you wrote. Yes I could play around with it and I did, but for a different purpose then hunting. I wanted to see if it made a different at high velocity in a 7 twist 5.56. It did not. Other harder tougher alloys did not either. That was the original question in one of my threads as what's going on with that? It's not rpm, something else happens to the bullet in bore. So far, for me, this had only cropped up in the 22 caliber. Before anyone speculates that my 5.56 fast twist throws the bullets out into wonder wonder land had high velocity, it does not. It only increases my group size.

The poster over on CB that was in those threads that said you can introduce the CU into the alloy with electricity got that idea from me. I MIG welded the CU into the molten alloy. I had no problems what so ever doing that and by no means there was not any eruption of alloy that would make it dangerous.

That poster never said anything about lead eruptions. He was insinuating that vapors of certain heavy metals released into the air by the arc should be considered a health hazard of the highest order. How you got #14 house wire to feed through a MiG is still a mystery. Using the appropriate DC polarity and square wave setting on a TiG machine with arc electrode attached is very effective, though.

As to the discussion of commercial monoliths, nobody bothered to mention that they work on game because they are very carefully constructed with controlled failure points that allow precise expansion. Monolith does not equal "solid", it just means one material is used. If high-copper cast alloys were made malleable enough and constructed in a similar fashion (or with simple hollow or cup points, perhaps with faceted cavities), then the hunting limitations discussed here could be removed.

Gear

quote:

(simple hollow or cup points, perhaps with faceted cavities)

Cup points like NorthFork or wide relative shallow HP's is want I was thinking.
The faceted cavities you mentioned might be even better.

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
If high-copper cast alloys were made malleable enough and constructed in a similar fashion (or with simple hollow or cup points, perhaps with faceted cavities), then the hunting limitations discussed here could be removed.
Gear

All of the malleability is speculation so far since no one has shown it is malleable within the pressure range it was shot it.... Basically full power 7mm TCU loads (and yes, i've seen the rifle and loads). Nothing I saw shows it to be malleable within the performance platform it was shot in. It acted like a solid, no deformation, just material edges wiped from contact in the deer. The only thing presently that would be usefull is a cup or shallow HP..... and then it probably won't expand. I'll wait and see just what happens when they learn to cut the alloy down with Pb or learn to draw some hardness thru heat treatment. Until then it's a FMJ performance type.

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
That poster never said anything about lead eruptions. He was insinuating that vapors of certain heavy metals released into the air by the arc should be considered a health hazard of the highest order. How you got #14 house wire to feed through a MiG is still a mystery. Using the appropriate DC polarity and square wave setting on a TiG machine with arc electrode attached is very effective, though.

As to the discussion of commercial monoliths, nobody bothered to mention that they work on game because they are very carefully constructed with controlled failure points that allow precise expansion. Monolith does not equal "solid", it just means one material is used. If high-copper cast alloys were made malleable enough and constructed in a similar fashion (or with simple hollow or cup points, perhaps with faceted cavities), then the hunting limitations discussed here could be removed.

Gear

I explained to you that I didn't feed the #14 wire through the MIG cable.

You are correct on the monolith construction.

Hey Bob Wolf..saw your post...here it is:

Had the 6x45 AR out a couple days ago, using the Cu containing, lead based babbitt I've been using for a few years now. Tried a couple loads. In one the powder was slow enough, managed a 1.5 tall x 1.25 wide 100yd group at around 2600fps. With a slightly faster powder things went awry and it was difficult to keep the bullets on an 8.5x11 target. I'd guesstimate that load was going close to 2700fps. I'm thinking the AR is going to be sold so I can buy a bolt gun with a slower twist and some tools I need.

Laughing my ass off. You have the same problem I'm having with the 5.56 NATO with 7 twist, but I am able to get around it it a little bit more with tweaking powder....and that's with a 50/50 alloy not the hard stuff you're using.

I also see you caved into the RPM UNPROVEN BULLSHIT NON-THEORY. Shame on you Bob. I also think you're selling your AR because you want to get rid of it for more money then Obama will give you for it when he takes it. Hey you should get Idahosharpshooter to sell it for you, he gets very top dollar for them.

P.S. Oh, what was sw-drunkard-wheeler saying about my Cast threads being dead????????

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

P.S. Oh, what was sw-drunkard-wheeler saying about my Cast threads being dead????????

These are very interesting threads with kernals of information in between the rhetoric.

I have just got my 6.5 Gm sorted with the 123gn A Max at 2700fps with 1/3 moa at 200 yds and am just starting my cast bullet load trials with 50/50 and a powder that is considered a little too slow for good velocity with jacketed in this case size so I hope to get at least into that range with them using this powder.

Joe check your HV forum

Joe isn't having problems with his fast twist AR Mr swheeler, he's just wants smaller groups out of it at higher velocity. Notice Bob Wolf said his second load in his 6mm AR was hard to keep his bullets on an 8.5x11 target. Let me assure you that I don't and that I wouldn't have any problem putting bullets in say someones head (not that I would do that as I would not) at quite some distance. So quit emailing my friends and badgering them.

P.S. I won't cheat and use a CU alloy either. If I did that might as well use jacketed.