Well I didn't make it to bed, I'm staying at the McChord RV park which is just off the end of the runway. Lots of fighter aircraft activity and C-17 activity??? Perhaps Obama is trying to act presidential in ordering something somewhere?????

Joe, 1st you asked if my dog likes me and I tell you my dog loves me. Then out of that you come up with; "I mean dog since his dog doesn't like him. Damn that really sucks your dog doesn't like you." Your reasoning coming up with that out of what I answered is exactly like your reasoning on everything else joe, exactly ass backwards and totally out of context. Speaking of “ban suicide” (assuming you mean getting banned from a forum?) isn’t it you who has been banned from the CBF and the Grendel Forum? Probably other forums you’ve been banned from we don’t know of but we don’t care about you as you obviously care about us. Hell, the way you 3 amigo’s follow me around from thread to thread and forum to forum if I stopped suddenly I’d get one of your noses up my a**

I don't call you a moron; I concured and agree with your father who you said called you a moron. Calling something you say moronic isn’t calling you a moron, it’s about what you said. However, if you feel a moron it certainly would be in line with what your father apparently thinks of you, eh? From your answer about my dog your father is/was absolutely correct in my opinion as I agree with you that your father was a very smart man. And I suppose "personal attacks" are only those you say are personal attacks........

$50 for the Golden Bullet Award? Buying it was the only way you got yours………unless bobby “awarded” it to you….he is good at taking great credit upon himself and awarding such………

Gear

I didn't "twist" anything you said, I merely misspelled a word. If that's all you lay your criticism on instead of the substance of what was said then what can we say about you except that it is pretty petty and not germane to the subject at hand. You still haven't answered my questions regarding centrifugal force, which is germane to the discussion.........

Still lots of flight activity………..

Larry Gibson

amazing...

I see the lighthearted banter is still going on and on and on.....................................................................................Clint

Larry, why doesn't your dog like you? What did you do to him? Maybe it's his name..you didn't go and name him RPM did you?

Larry, I don't know what I'm going to do with you, you are getting more senile by the day. My father said that one day I may be voting for a Mormon. How did you get that wrong? You must not like me to twist that around like that. Gee and I thought we were friends.

Well I'm backing out one more time.......carpetman1 isn't here to point out spelling corrections to the 3 amigo’s and apparently they're not educated enough to have caught the bait I threw out......yes one of the 3 amigo's (perhaps all 3?) will come back with some lame excuse about having caught it, etc. ad nauseum........

Joe knows so much about me he can't even get the sex of my dog correct, just makes it up as he goes along just like the velocity and accuracy of his cast bullet shooting……….bobby pretended to know everything about me until I asked him to tell us then he sputtered out………and the gear, he knows everything about everything….just ask him….he’ll tell you………….

So, contrary to the 3 amigo’s I have a life and am getting back to it as I’ve wasted enough time with them. We all know they will come back with something idiot and moronic…..that’s okay, let them have the last word……..as sad as it will be…

Larry Gibson

Oh good, I win. Hot damn, I got the football.

One last note; I stopped, as mentioned in earlier post, and in 1 hour 16 minutes look who's nose I got up my a** .....no real surprise, just as we all figured......little spoiled brat can now take his football and go home.......

Adios 3 amigo's.........

Larry Gibson

Promises...Promisses...Good riddance Larry.... don't let the door hit what’s left of your backside.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
One last note; I stopped, as mentioned in earlier post, and in 1 hour 16 minutes look who's nose I got up my a** .....no real surprise, just as we all figured......little spoiled brat can now take his football and go home.......

Adios 3 amigo's.........

Larry Gibson

Oh no, not going home with the football, I'm quarterback and we're going to play ball! I'm calling the plays and with your ball none the less. You lost and you sound like the poor loser that I thought you would be. How about that, a small caliber cast bullet at HV from a fast twist barrel tumbled the big bad giant Larry Gibson.

Darn he's gone and I didn't get the information about RPM matches. Anyone else have any info about such?

OK, on past the banter. Gear, you feel something is happening to the bullet upon muzzle exit. I don't understand why that same something wouldn't effect paperpatched bullets.

I've got some of those plastic sabots to shoot 22 bullets out of 30cal rifles, that might make for some interesting HV experiments. I'll see what I can do sometime in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Wolfenheimer:
OK, on past the banter. Gear, you feel something is happening to the bullet upon muzzle exit. I don't understand why that same something wouldn't effect paperpatched bullets.

I've got some of those plastic sabots to shoot 22 bullets out of 30cal rifles, that might make for some interesting HV experiments. I'll see what I can do sometime in the future.

If you twist the tail and base-first size your paper-jacketed bullets, the twist forms a little cushioned wad at the base which I think helps insulate the bullet base from the gas jetting just as it exits the muzzle crown. The base wads I've recovered look like the base of a splattered lead bullet that's hit steel, just a little disc with feathered edges. I believe that wad helps dampen the effect of slight muzzle crown/bullet base imperfections that would otherwise contribute to yaw in a bad way. A plastic sabot would tend to transfer yaw to the bullet if the sabot itself yawed upon muzzle exit, since it will open more slowly than the paper cup.

Gear

Bob,

Part of the problem is surface of the cast bullet getting a lot of torsion from the rifling and changing something. That may be why a paper patch doesn't exhibit the same problems as cast. With cast it also boils down to bullet alloy strength to a certain degree. In other words you can cheat a little bit with a tougher harder alloy, but not cheat all the way like with paper patch.

A paper jacket does several things to help HV accuracy. It solves neck clearance issues, it is resiliant and can guide the bullet into the bore while absorbing uneven side pressures, it compresses upon engraving to become stronger than the lead itself at the land contact points, it modifies the friction of bullet/bore interface and also makes that friction more consistent, the paper jacket scours the bore each shot to maintain a clean, consistent surface, and finally it jettisons at the muzzle to reveal a more perfect bullet than is otherwise normally possible, even with copper jackets. The only limitation is human error in making each wrap identical.

Gear

Paper patch also keeps some heat off the bullet and definitely cuts down on friction heat. The paper also gives you something to write Gibby's RPM Threshold Theory Is BS on. I know you're looking Gibby so I'll give you something to bite on.

You can also print "BS" in 1 MOA-tall letters at 300 yards with them if you're inclined to use bullet holes for sighters!

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
You can also print "BS" in 1 MOA-tall letters at 300 yards with them if you're inclined to use bullet holes for sighters!

Gear

They shoot good enough that you could indeed shoot that message at 300!!! Good one Gear.

Gear, when I get a sizer made I'm going to paper patch some of those 7mm's we were talking about.

Hope you don't have Arthur-itis too bad, those little bullets can be a buggar to wrap. Green bar paper ought to do it if your rifle has a large throat and chamber neck area, otherwise something like 9-lb onionskin would be in order. The 16-lb green bar is really hard to beat, it has all the right attributes. Most of the time if you wet-wrap and do a decent stretch on it it will end up adding about ten thousandths or maybe a bit more, the onionskin more like seven thousandths.

I've been using 100% cotton vellum grid paper for .270, it makes a .2715" core right at .280", I size them to .279" when dry and they're a press-fit in the throat. That oversized Midsouth Cruise Missile goes into 1-1/4" at 200 yards while traveling at 2700 fps out of a ten-twist Featherweight. I know that's only 194,400 rpm, but not too shabby in my book.

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
Hope you don't have Arthur-itis too bad, those little bullets can be a buggar to wrap. Green bar paper ought to do it if your rifle has a large throat and chamber neck area, otherwise something like 9-lb onionskin would be in order. The 16-lb green bar is really hard to beat, it has all the right attributes. Most of the time if you wet-wrap and do a decent stretch on it it will end up adding about ten thousandths or maybe a bit more, the onionskin more like seven thousandths.

I've been using 100% cotton vellum grid paper for .270, it makes a .2715" core right at .280", I size them to .279" when dry and they're a press-fit in the throat. That oversized Midsouth Cruise Missile goes into 1-1/4" at 200 yards while traveling at 2700 fps out of a ten-twist Featherweight. I know that's only 194,400 rpm, but not too shabby in my book.

Gear

I don't have Arthur-itis, but I do have larry-itis after 13 pages of this crap. Will that affect my wrapping good bullets???????

Just to show you that gibson is full of BS and doesn't have the knowledge about firarms that boast about:

Frankly from jungles to mountains I've never found a shorter rifle to be ay real benifit when I've gone into the back coutnry . In the late '70s I shortened an M1A barrel down to 18" and remounted the flash suppressor. Shot the barrel out, put a standard 22" barrel back on and use it just as well. I've had numerous M1As and M14s with standard barrels over the years in some pretty dense places, I'll keep mine at 22" + the suppressor.

As mentioned; the AR 10s are not proven yet, the M1A is. But, as always, the choice is yours.

Larry Gibson

Now here's the real story:

The final Artillerie Inrichtingen design is known as the Portuguese model AR-10. This final version incorporated all that had been learned to date about the AR-10, including infantry service rifle and field test reports. In addition to a heavier barrel with chrome-lined chamber, optional bipod, and the removable plastic/metal handguards of the Transitional model, the Portuguese variant had wider bolt lugs, a stronger extractor, a new simplified three-position gas regulator, and a cocking handle featuring a forward bolt assist.[33] It is believed that approximately 4-5,000 Portuguese variants were produced; nearly all of them were sold to the Portuguese National Defense Ministry by the Brussels-based arms dealer SIDEM International in 1960.[25] The AR-10 was officially adopted by Portuguese Hunter paratroop (Caçadores páraquedista) battalions, and the rifle saw considerable combat service in Portugal's counter-insurgency campaigns in Angola and Mozambique.[34] In U.S. Army tests at Aberdeen Proving Ground in November 1960, and later in Portuguese service, the AR-10 gained a reputation for accuracy[35] (some rifles would group into 25 mm (1 inch) at 100 meters with service ammunition). Portuguese paratroopers found the AR-10 to be not only accurate but reliable in combat, despite rugged service conditions in African jungle and savannah.[36] A few Portuguese and Sudanese model AR-10s found their way by various means to nearby African countries; in Chad, the AR-10 was much appreciated by members of the French Foreign Legion. As one police instructor in the Congo stated, "It was a good combat weapon that never failed me; a bit too long (but not as bad as the FAL or M-14) for house-to-house work or really heavy brush, but great for 400-800 meters, in the flats - and really nice on the body, after wandering around 12-14 hours looking for bad guys."[26][37]

Some Portuguese-model AR-10s were fitted with A.I.-modified upper receivers in order to mount 3x or 3.6x telescopic sights.[38] These rifles were used by marksmen accompanying small patrols to eliminate individual enemies at extended ranges in open country.[39] Other AR-10s were used by the paratroopers in a secondary role to launch rifle grenades. The AR-10's built-in gas cutoff design enabled it to fire Energa rifle grenades without adjustment of the gas system, and the self-loading action would even eject the spent blank shells and load the next one, allowing several grenades to be quickly fired. The added recoil took its toll on rifle stocks, and some Portuguese rifles were retrofitted with all-metal buttstocks to better withstand the strain caused by firing the heavy grenades.[39] Plans to order additional quantities of the AR-10 rifle were stymied after the Netherlands embargoed further shipments of the rifle to Portugal. Paratroopers deploying to Africa in later years were subsequently issued a collapsible stock version of the German Heckler & Koch G3 rifle.[34][38] Nevertheless, the AR-10 continued in service with a few Portuguese airborne units, and was in use as late as 1975 in the Portuguese Timor (East Timor) decolonization emergency.[40]

Picture of Portuguese soldiers armed with AR10's


Here's a link to read more:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3...OPERS_IN_AFRICA.html

*** This is well documented. Mr Gibson doesn't do any research apparently.

back to the paper patch for a minute....
remember the faster you go with them the alloy still has to keep up with the velocity/pressure changes.
it also combats the skidding affect even further than alloy alone will.
which is why the g/g cores work so much better than slick sided ones do.
there's more surface area to create the friction bond between the boolit and the paper.
that's also wh you have to lube the patch.
it's so the bbl patch interface has less friction than the paper/bullet interface.

my thoughts on it ayway.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
back to the paper patch for a minute....
remember the faster you go with them the alloy still has to keep up with the velocity/pressure changes.
it also combats the skidding affect even further than alloy alone will.
which is why the g/g cores work so much better than slick sided ones do.
there's more surface area to create the friction bond between the boolit and the paper.
that's also wh you have to lube the patch.
it's so the bbl patch interface has less friction than the paper/bullet interface.

my thoughts on it ayway.

Lamar you definitely have to lube the patch. You know you can push pure lead (may little tin in it) pretty darn fast with a patch. I'm not so sure about the skidding thing with bare cast. I deliberately tried to get pure lead 7mm bullet to strip and never did. I was amazed at how fast I pushed them and really didn't get the leading I though I would too. No I certainly did not get good accuracy with them either. Speaking of leading I've never even gotten a trace of it in my Colt HBAR with it's seven twist. I feel a major reason is that it's bore is chrome lined. I noticed that in my 7.7 Jap too.

I've pushed pretty close to pure (6 bhn) patched lead to 2200 FPS before accuracy started to go south. Air cooled wheel weights goes clear up to 2700 no problem in a couple of different ten-twist rifles. I've used JPW, Felix lube, and a soft mix of beeswax and vaseline for lubes, I actually liked the latter the best but they all worked fine. I even used a mix of liquid Alox, reduced JPW, and mineral spirits in a 45/45/10 ratio as a tumble-lube for the whole patched bullet and that worked pretty well, but did leave more ash in the barrel than the other lubes and smoked just a wee bit. I've tried un-lubed patches, but the barrel heats up really fast and the POI changed, all indicators of too much friction.

Gear

Here's what can be done with the 96 Swede 6.5x55 through careful reloading. This was one of the first rifles I done HV in. This involved using sized down, formed, and neck trimmed 30-06 cases to get the fatter necks. It also involved the use of shot shell buffer. The part group above the smaller group shows what changing powder loads can do. My rifle happen to like 31 grains of AA4350 with the buffer I was using. The data under the group explains it all.

Hey larry, I'm laughing my butt off. I guess old Bob tramped on your gonads. The link you gave him, your own link, said the Cetme's, from the beginning had fluted chambers. lol

Now on a shooting subject. Yup, you didn't learn a thing from buffer. You and you're equally handicapped friend swheeler. Bob just told you something in that thread you tried to "smear" me, about buffer. I'll explain it to you again incase you missed it. Without changing the powder charge you can vary the veloicity. As noted with the target here in this thread when I said first rifles I done it in I had also meant that first time getting a small group at a decent velocity. After I got the knack of it I was able to increase the velocity with the same powder charge by learning how to use the buffer correctly...which you never have. Also in the thread that you went back into you and I weren't shooting the same bullets.

Nice try larry, but no cigar.

Not wanting to state the obvious here Larry, but why didn't you ask Joe about that pic before you go off the deep end about it on another forum where you know Joe can't respond? I believe 45 2.1 straightened you out on the target, and I'm posting your "observation' here where it belongs.

"Not wanting to resurrect the dead but something "new" and “interesting” has developed. Satrmetal has posted a target (posted below) on a thread at AR forum to gearnasher of the 31 gr AA4350 load used here by me also. Interestingly and new he states the velocity to b3 now “2200 fps”. That is not the 2380 - 2385 fps velocity listed for that load on the numerous threads here at CBF. I have been severely criticized by starmetal and 45 2.1 in these threads for not being able “to do it”.

If one researches the threads one finds most of my testing done with a M38 with a shorter barrel. That includes the data listed in my 1st post on this thread. However I also did chronograph the 31 gr AA4350 load in my own longer barreled M96 and guess what? The velocity is almost identical to what starmetal now claims is the velocity for that load. His now listed velocity is certainly in line with what my 3 Oehler chronographs say it is.

Bottom line is I did indeed equal his velocity with good accuracy. Certainly not the accuracy starmetal always claimed for just about everything but that’s another story that has been beaten to death so I’ll not go there. Just want to mention that the truth has finally emerged regarding the actual velocity of starmetal's 6.5 load from starmetal himself.

Larry Gibson"

It's exactly this sort of backstabbing, cheap-shot (MAGGIE'S DRAWARS, ring a bell there????) crap from you that should get you banned from the entire internet.

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
Larry Gibson, It's exactly this sort of backstabbing, cheap-shot (MAGGIE'S DRAWARS, ring a bell there????) crap from you that should get you banned from the entire internet.
Gear

Yep, it certainly was a cheap shot. One we have come to expect from him. A good nickname perhaps...

Last 2 posts demonstrates the real ignorance of the posters with regards to what "maggie's drawers" refers to. It is a HP shooting term refering to a miss. A miss is exactly waht both posters just made.

Both of tem apparently think maggi's drawers refers to drag queens as evidenced by a personal attack gear made on the CBF. Joe's earlier remarks can be ignored because Joe's father was perhaps correct about him being a moron. But the other two? Perhaps......... of stupid is as stupid does.

Larry Gibson

Like a bad penny.... he's back. I really don't think he can say anything without running someone else down. Cheap shots are all he does.
Cheap shots are what you do best Larry... you hit nothing.

45 2.1 I'd say swheeler is sharper on cast loading then Larry. If he didn't switch camps to the Cartoon Network with other threes stooges I really believe I could have gotten him to have done it. He's not as stubborn or handicapped as Larry. Too bad I use to really enjoy my conversations with Scott.

es, you're probably correct....the target (on regular spaced, lined college ruled paper with an ill defined aiming point) is probably the current "secret". My "100 yards" probably isn't what starmetal's "100 yards" is either

Larry Gibson

Yes you are correct on that 100 yards. Mine is actually 100 meters. Sorry I should have mentioned that, but I didn't think that made much a differece really. What's the big difference 8.3 yards?

Well joe, that's the problem...........your education is sorely lacking or you are just ignorant.......

There is 9.613 yards difference between 100 yards and 100 meteres.

Are you sure the target wasn't at the 8.3 yards you mention........morons do get cofused you know......

You and 45 2.1 are still wrong about the CETME rifles. Yes the chambers of the 7.62 NATO MBs are fluted to aid extraction. When chambered for the 7.62x40 they were not fluted but fuctioning was fine. When they were chambered for 7.62 NATO they gave extraction problems because of the higher pressure. The 7.62 CETME cartridge (same case as the 7.62 NATO but loaded with the ligher aluminum bullet of the 7.62x40 round at lower pressure) was developed as an interum solution until they figured out that fluting the chambers allowed extraction with the 7.62NATO loads. All the CETMEs then had fluted chambers.

All is a red herring anyway to cover for45 2.1 looking so stupid saying the CETMEs were make for Spain by H&K. I pointed out (read the references) that that was BS so 45 2.1 is looking pretty stupid.........

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Well joe, that's the problem...........your education is sorely lacking or you are just ignorant.......

There is 9.613 yards difference between 100 yards and 100 meteres.

Are you sure the target wasn't at the 8.3 yards you mention........morons do get cofused you know......

You and 45 2.1 are still wrong about the CETME rifles. Yes the chambers of the 7.62 NATO MBs are fluted to aid extraction. When chambered for the 7.62x40 they were not fluted but fuctioning was fine. When they were chambered for 7.62 NATO they gave extraction problems because of the higher pressure. The 7.62 CETME cartridge (same case as the 7.62 NATO but loaded with the ligher aluminum bullet of the 7.62x40 round at lower pressure) was developed as an interum solution until they figured out that fluting the chambers allowed extraction with the 7.62NATO loads. All the CETMEs then had fluted chambers.

All is a red herring anyway to cover for45 2.1 looking so stupid saying the CETMEs were make for Spain by H&K. I pointed out (read the references) that that was BS so 45 2.1 is looking pretty stupid.........

Larry Gibson

larry,

I rounded off the 39.3701 inches in a meter to 39. So I guess you wanted to get more precise. Okay, well your education didn't do you too well either because the correct answer is 109.36139, making it 9.36139 different not the 9.613 yards you figured someshow.

Now the discussion on the Cetme was on the Cetme cartridge (which you even said has the same chamber as the 7.62 NATO) and the 7.62 NATO, not the 7.62x40. So I can pick another blow back cartridge such as the 32ACP and quote accurately that it doesn't have a fluted chamber. The Cetme cartridge doesn't operate as low a pressure you think it does either.

I quote this so you can't edit your personal attack on me or your math error.

Yup, you "rounded it off" alright. Same way you rounded off 2385 fps to now 2200 fps, 25 or 50 yards to 100 meters?????

Joe, 100 meters equals 109.613 yards. Subtract 100 yards from that equals 9.613 yards. Basic math joe, keep the meters as meters and the yards as yards. That's where you get confused......putting the target up at 25 yards is not 100 meters even if you think it is

Regards the 7.62x40 cartridge; if you want to equate it to a 32 ACP in a blowback action you once again demonstrate your ignorance and stupidity and a lack of research ability. The 7.62x40 was designed for use in the very same CETME rifle, which is a delayed blowback BTW. Anyone who has any knowledge of such knows the difference.......obviously your knowledge of such is seriously lacking.......

Larry Gibson

You're too damn stupid to understate the analogy of the 32acp to the 7.62x40. In the original topic the 7.62x40 wasn't in the discussion, the 7.72 Cetme and the 7.62 NATO were. Your typical BS to twist a thread up. You lost, Bob nailed your ass good on the rifle and even with the the link you provided. Also that aluminum bullet is jacketed in brass, it's not a full size aluminum bullet. You just bring this shit up to twist people's minds to get their attention away from all your mistakes.Here's a picture of the aluminum coreammunition:


I thought you weren't coming back on this thread? Thanks..because I won a monetary bet you would. If you were within a buy you a drink distance I would buy you one for the money I won. Again thanks.

I still can't get over your dog not liking you.

More stupid assumptions on your part joe. The bulles are refered to as "aluminum" bullets in the references including the spanish ones. You would know that if you would research it instead of hallucinating something to try to criticise me with. Bob said the CETMEs were made by H&K for Spain, that is ass backwards. That was the point and you two are doing everything, as usual, to try to confuse everyone into thinking your right. You're not right, you're wrong.......as usual.

Also bob was wrong; the original 7.62 NATO CETMEs did not have fluted chambers and had extraction problems. The bullet (aluminum one joe) from the 7.62x40 was loaded in 7.62 NATO cases with a ower psi level and called the 7.62 CETME cartridge. That cartridge functioned in the original 7.62 NATO CCETME rifles until they figured out that fluting the chambers would solve the extraction problems with 7.62 NATP ammunition. It's all in the references but why should we expect you to understand that when you can't even do math right.........

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
More stupid assumptions on your part joe. The bulles are refered to as "aluminum" bullets in the references including the spanish ones. You would know that if you would research it instead of hallucinating something to try to criticise me with. Bob said the CETMEs were made by H&K for Spain, that is ass backwards. That was the point and you two are doing everything, as usual, to try to confuse everyone into thinking your right. You're not right, you're wrong.......as usual.

Also bob was wrong; the original 7.62 NATO CETMEs did not have fluted chambers and had extraction problems. The bullet (aluminum one joe) from the 7.62x40 was loaded in 7.62 NATO cases with a ower psi level and called the 7.62 CETME cartridge. That cartridge functioned in the original 7.62 NATO CCETME rifles until they figured out that fluting the chambers would solve the extraction problems with 7.62 NATP ammunition. It's all in the references but why should we expect you to understand that when you can't even do math right.........

Larry Gibson

I quoted this because it had so many freaking spelling errors in it that it was pathetic. "The bulle" ??? "7.62 NATP"???? "7.62 NATO CCETME"???? Yeah college educated my ass. You're a high school flunkie that joined the Army because you had nowhere else to go. That and you're dog at the time hated you.

So I suggest you get off the drugs and get on your Alzheimer's meds because you're losing it.

Joe

You really should research something you know nothing of (most everything it appars) before you make dumb ass statements.

What was the average age in WWII, Korea, Vietnam and now? It is under 25 dumbass. Who in the Army is responsible for training soldiers on weapons and marksmanship? The SGT and SSG dumbass. Most SGTs and SSGs (when first promoted) are under 25 dumbass.

I as a SGT at age 19. I was training and leading men on weapons and tactics and led them into war. What was your dumbass doing? A lot of weapons andmarksmanship training has/is done by civilian contrators, especially the last 8 years in the GWOT. I did that for 3 years after retiring from the Army. You know nothing dumbass.

Larry Gibson