After reading a post on another forum... Got me curious about lion hunts...

How many have gone lion hunting and actually shot a lion?

How many without?

Thanks!

Two 21 day hunts for Lion; one Lion. But I turned down a PH offered young male in the Selous some 11 years ago. Got my big male 3 years later in the Mwanya concession of Zambia on day #11. Finding a mature male Lion may take some time and multiple hunts.

BTW, leaving for my place on the north shore of Kauai in two weeks. Anything to hunt there?

Let me think.

In 4 trips to TZ, I took one lion. I turned down immature males on one trip.

In 4 attempts in Zim, I took 4. Granted, 3 were cattle killers taken on a single night.

In one other attempt, I took one.

21 days in Zambia - 0 lion.

Hopefully trying again in 2013 or 2014.

Doug

L-B, you might be referring to the post I made on the "Mokore lion for sale" thread?

As I mentioned there, I am personally 11 for 14 - 85% (sorry, as hunt99 pointed out - its actually 78.57%) plus I have participated in 5 lion hunts with clients, all successful. So, the 19 lion hunts I have been on, we killed 16 lions (82.4% success) Clients of mine over the past 10 yrs, 80% plus - successful.

1. Certainly some guys have gone to very good places, and just had bad luck - that happens! I know I have, and I know Larry Shores has too - for example.

2. More often, I have seen guys hunting places that lion success is marginal at best, but maybe the price was right, etc.

3. Other times I've seen guys hunting places that, as a general rule, do not produce the kind of lion they are really looking for, but for some reason - they booked the hunt to this location?

4. Just because someone has a "PH" license, does NOT instantly make them a good cat hunter. I've seen alot of good ones, but I've seen a couple that didn't have the 1st clue how to kill a cat!

5. Lastly, as an addition to #2 - take Zambia for example. I've taken a couple of great lions in Zambia, and my clients have taken some exceptional lions in Zambia, at a success rate of over 90%. But without question, there as many GMA's in Zambia that I WOULD NOT book a lion hunt in, than those that I would. Just going to Zambia, means very little as it pertains to likelihood of success. Its mostly about location, some luck, and lastly - a good cat hunting PH.

I could have shot a maneless lion in Kigosi but did not. Then again, it was a deal where I essentially paid half and if I shot a lion, I "upgraded."

Instead, I watched the lion mate.

Second trip I shot a lion on Day 16 of a 21 day.

I am thinking hard about going to Zambia. As MR said once, there is nothing like a 21 day full bag hunt.

10 days in Zimbabwe and I got my lion (lioness in my case) on day 9. Funny how thing work out... baits were getting hit by male lions and female leopards until the end of the trip and I had a female lion and male leopard on license.

2 hunts, got one on the second try.

Real interesting stuff here folks

I have great admiration for your dedication to hunt them... especially in regards to knowing it may take MULTIPLE safaris, many days afield, and of course your hard-earned dollars.

Thanks for sharing AWESOME

About 20 lions hunts and only managed to shoot 6.

As larrysellers said on another thread, Lion hunting is expensive. I'd bet that most who hunt seriously for a large, mature male Lion, will spend many days afield before they have success. Settling is probably easier than going home empty handed, in most cases.

Almost all the Lion hunters I know are at or below 50% on "good" Lion. Even Saeed is below 50% on Lion.

I now realize it's a SUPER major investment to HUNT the African lion.... and it should be all things considered!

I'm not in this league...

But if I was...
dang, PERSONALLY I would want proof by order of a game-cam that there is a mature lion on bait in the area before my boots hit the dirt

My only lion is shown with my posts. It was a 21-day hunt in Zambia's Mumbwa area near Kafue National Park in 1994. I shot this big male the second day.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
My only lion is shown with my posts. It was a 21-day hunt in Zambia's Mumbwa area near Kafue National Park in 1994. I shot this big male the second day.

Bill Quimby

Bill obviously knows the game - Mumbwa is an AWESOME lion area! One I have rarely seen mentioned on AR! Hunt places like this, and you will mostly likely get your lion, even the 1st time around, and even in 2012.

BTW Aaron,

I appreciate you knocking out those 5 points for me in your first post... I gathered MUCH from it!

One lion hunt - no lion. It is hunting after all...

2 lion hunts, 7 lions

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
2 lion hunts, 7 lions

Why did you leave out the hunt where you killed 24 lions in one sitting? How did you forget that one?

One hunt--one lion. AND I fell for the BS line. My PH told me my lion was a 5 1/2 year old male with little mane from living a life in the bush (L1 I believe in the Selous). He was a 2 1/2 year teenager who should have not been shot. It was on day 6 of the hunt. If I'm ever called to task on what was told me it is not from memory--I have it on video tape. Perhaps another day......
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

ZAMBIA


Its mostly about location, some luck, and lastly - a good cat hunting PH.

I think I got at least two out of three covered.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
One hunt--one lion. AND I fell for the BS line. My PH told me my lion was a 5 1/2 year old male with little mane from living a life in the bush (L1 I believe in the Selous). He was a 2 1/2 year teenager who should have not been shot. It was on day 6 of the hunt. If I'm ever called to task on what was told me it is not from memory--I have it on video tape. Perhaps another day......
Cheers,
Cal

Dang that's a real tough one right there Cal... I wish you only good hunting!

All of this confirms what has been suggested in the past - pay a normal daily rate ($500to $1000) and a large trophy fee ($25k to $50k) rather than an exorbitant daily rate ($2000 to $3000) and small trophy fee ($5000 to $12000).

Part of the reason is that lions are not shot everytime and the outfitter re-sells the lion tag each season. I do not think this is right, but it happens. I prefer to the safari outfit "motivated" to put you on a lion.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
...and the outfitter re-sells the lion tag each season.

Oh wow...wasn't all that aware of that being common practice... dang, that's a tough one right there too

2 Lion hunts, 2 Lion.
Great PH's, great venue's and great hunts.

One lion hunt in Tanzania , 21 days. I took 7 years old lion on 19th day.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
.....I prefer to the safari outfit "motivated" to put you on a lion.

Why would you think that an outfitter would not be motivated to get you a lion? For many, client success = exposure in the market.

A reputable PH/outfitter will ALWAYS be motivated to make you successful. The "others" will skim you whether you use one system or the other.

quote:

Why would you think that an outfitter would not be motivated to get you a lion?

umm, maybe because they sold more lion hunts than they had tags. Or, maybe they had a "high profile" client coming in the hunt after you and wanted him to shoot the lion.

quote:

Why did you leave out the hunt where you killed 24 lions in one sitting? How did you forget that one?

My apologies, I didn't know we were counting cubs as "lions".

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
.....I prefer to the safari outfit "motivated" to put you on a lion.

Why would you think that an outfitter would not be motivated to get you a lion? For many, client success = exposure in the market.

A reputable PH/outfitter will ALWAYS be motivated to make you successful. The "others" will skim you whether you use one system or the other.

Dogcat & Others - That really is true! The outfitters you "should" be booking with, are always looking out for the client's best interest.

Guys, take no offense - but I think there's alot of the scenario you are not considering, or are simply not aware of - and rightfully so.

1. I see examples thrown around here about the "tag/quota" gets resold 2-4 times, like its common-place? When nothing could be further from the truth, NOTHING! I can't recall the last time I had that situation arrise with a lion hunt I booked, or an outfitter I booked for, ever! I'm not saying its never happened, I know for a fact, an outfitter or two who made this common place in the past - thus I stayed away. But to insinuate its a common practice, is false!

2. Often times your GOOD outfitters are very busy/booked throughout the year, they don't have time/days available to re-sell a lion (18 - 21 days) hunt 2-3 times, its impossible. And because of that, its important to them to get that 18-21 day hunt conducted at a prime date/location. Again, not saying it doesn't happen, but its NOT COMMON, and to insinuate otherwise, is false.

3. Tie #2 into this one, and then consider the cost factor to the operator for example. For obvious reasons I will NOT get completely specific about another outfitters finances, but suffice to say - a very reputable Zim PH, one used frequently by AR members, has a lion available in the Save for 2013. His cost to buy/lease, call it what you will, that 1 lion quota authorized to the property owner, from which he leases the ranch, is "trust me on this", tens of thousands of dollars, period!! He pays that, along with all of the outfitting costs for the hunter, regardless of the hunter's success on the LION! So, as is often the case in the Save - the best outfitters are booked throughout the season, thus getting the lion during the time frame he's allotted, is often - crucial!

The Save issued 5 lions on quota in 2012, the landowners who received them, value them highly. If they lease their ranch to an outfitter, they are gonna expect a pretty penny for that lion quota, in addition to the normal lease price, and the rest is the outfitters responsibility, period!! Guys, its a really simple arrangement, pay to play - that applies to the outfitter too. So to assume that the cost of a Lion hunt is the same as a buffalo hunt, and why can't the outfitter just charge the same daily fees, and a much higher trophy fee for the lion - is FALSE! Its the same sort of scenario here with the 250,000 acres we lease in eastern Colorado for deer - our landowners get paid the same, whether we sell hunts or not, and whether we kill deer or not. Its not their problem, and they don't care!

4. I gotta speak honestly, and say what most outfitters/guides/agents won't say - but we all talk about it, and we've all dealt with it many, many times. Look, after gaining a few years worth of experience as a "guide", many years ago - I learned exactly why guides can be/are so important. More times than not, the average client is not exactly what I would call a "killer"! On at least two occasions out of the 5, that I hunted with my clients for their lion - my lord, it was an absolute miracle we actually got the lion! They couldn't see him (really?), they couldn't find him in the scope (really, he's only 50 yards away?) they didn't have a clear shot , the angle was bad (by the way, the angles might change - but the anatomy never does) on, and on! In each case, the PH was starting to panic, I was pulling my hair out, all while the client was apparently on a different planet! Folks, I could write a book on all the times I have seen these sort of things happen when guiding clients - its amazing! I can locate em, I can judge em, I can stalk em, and I can point em out, but I can't make you see em, I can't carry you there, and I can't shoot em for ya - period! Thus, outfitters are often times hesitant to tie hunter's success, to their success!

I hope you guys know, I mean NO disrespect - I am simply trying to shed some light on the situation, from the opposite dug-out!

If you want a lion, go get one! But do it right, with the right people - in the right place, and odds are pretty good.

The "multiple sales of tags" by unscrupulous outfitters does happen on mixed or full bag hunts.

For example, it happens in Tanzania when an outfitter books eight consecutive 21 day safaris in one hunting block, where there are only a few lion on quota, and yet the outfitter does not tell his hunters about the quota limitation.

Hunters who are truly after lion should be given that information, i.e., they should be told that lion (or anything else they truly want to hunt) may be not be available when they arrive.

Unless the hunter has that information, and is careful to insist that his booking take place before the quota is exhausted, he may think he's getting a lion hunt, and his PH may even go through the motions, but that hunter is not really going to be hunting lion.

I have killed a couple of lions in three honest tries. Other times, we weren't really after them as a priority. That is lucky beyond belief, as compared with most.

quote:

The "multiple sales of tags" by unscrupulous outfitters does happen on mixed or full bag hunts.

For example, it happens in Tanzania when an outfitter books eight consecutive 21 day safaris in one hunting block, where there are only a few lion on quota, and yet the outfitter does not tell his hunters about the quota limitation.

Hunters who are truly after lion should be given that information, i.e., they should be told that lion (or anything else they truly want to hunt) may be not be available when they arrive.

Unless the hunter has that information, and is careful to insist that his booking take place before the quota is exhausted, he may think he's getting a lion hunt, and his PH may even go through the motions, but that hunter is not really going to be hunting lion.

Michael,
Are you speaking of something like what mich posted below?

quote:

originally posted by Bwanamich:
If you restrict yourself to shooting only >6 yo lions, you don't need a quota! So if you have a quota of 1 lion (which would probably be what is required!) and you shoot it on the 1st hunt and the next 3 hunters along do see a >6 lion on their trip but are not allowed to shoot it because your quota is done, is that desirable?

It does happen in TZ whether anyone here wants to admit it or not. This 6 year rule makes this even easier to pull off.

quote:

This 6 year rule makes this even easier to pull off

I wonder if some of those pushing for the 6yr rule were doing it for that reason?

What Aaron said : good area good PH

I've been on one lion hunt and killed a great

cat on day 14 of a 21 day hunt. We passed on

four different males before shooting the one

I got.

Think about it for a moment. If one has oversold the quota, all they have to do is age any lion that is seen as less than six years old.I'm not saying anyone has done it. I'm saying is possible.

I heard reports of many many 2011 lion hunters going home without lions. Is this truly because a lion seen with less than six years old or was it because the quota was oversold?

One 12 days hunt for cats in Niassa, Moz. Lion was killed on day 6.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Think about it for a moment. If one has oversold the quota, all they have to do is age any lion that is seen as less than six years old.I'm not saying anyone has done it. I'm saying is possible.

I heard reports of many many 2011 lion hunters going home without lions. Is this truly because a lion seen with less than six years old or was it because the quota was oversold?

Guys - At this point, its looking like roughly 80 lions were killed country wide in TZ, in 2011/2012. Down from 150 lions killed the previous year, that's almost a 50% decline in success! An obvious outcome from the new law - be it good, or bad!

So, you think the brilliant marketing strategy devised by the Tanzania hunting industry, and outfitters individually, was to drop the success rate by 50%, use the 6 yr old law as the excuse, and hope that'll be a good way to sell $80k - $120k lion safaris the following year? Ya, let's do think about that for a moment?

I too work with several TZ outfitters, of which, they all have 15 plus lions per year on quota - with their numerous hunting blocks. I can't think of the last time any one of them sold ALL 21-day lion hunt safaris they had available in a single year, ever? Much less over-selling the lion hunts they have available each year. Fact is, not I or any of them - have ever found it that easy to sell 15 - 20, $80k - $120k lion safaris each and every year.

So now, some of you guys think the idea was to push for a 6yr old or nothing law, knowing full well the success rates would drop, and hoping that would be the holy grail towards selling even more "big money" safaris, REALLY????? Somewhere along the lines, I obviously must have been absent that day in business/marketing class?

Folks, like alot of these threads, this one too has degraded to accusations, insinuations, and plain out speculation - as it pertains to the evil Tanzanian outfitters who are simply out to steal all your money, and send you home empty-handed. All from a guy asking about how many of us have lion hunted, and got one or not?

Aaron:

All I said was that the six year rule would make it easier to oversell lion quota. That should be fairly obvious to anyone who gives it thought.

There were 250 lions killed in TZ in 2009, 150 in 2010, & 80 in 2011/12 season. The maximum quota allowed was not approached in any of those seasons. Not having a lion available for a hunter with a tag was not an issue in 2010 or 2011/12 for sure as the quota did not change.

According to my sources...you have about a 20% chance of killing a 6 year old lion in TZ in this day and time.

Like my PH said in Jan, it should be great hunting in a few more years!