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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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The "multiple sales of tags" by unscrupulous outfitters does happen on mixed or full bag hunts.

For example, it happens in Tanzania when an outfitter books eight consecutive 21 day safaris in one hunting block, where there are only a few lion on quota, and yet the outfitter does not tell his hunters about the quota limitation.

Hunters who are truly after lion should be given that information, i.e., they should be told that lion (or anything else they truly want to hunt) may be not be available when they arrive.

Unless the hunter has that information, and is careful to insist that his booking take place before the quota is exhausted, he may think he's getting a lion hunt, and his PH may even go through the motions, but that hunter is not really going to be hunting lion.

Michael,
Are you speaking of something like what mich posted below?

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originally posted by Bwanamich:
If you restrict yourself to shooting only >6 yo lions, you don't need a quota! So if you have a quota of 1 lion (which would probably be what is required!) and you shoot it on the 1st hunt and the next 3 hunters along do see a >6 lion on their trip but are not allowed to shoot it because your quota is done, is that desirable?

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Originally posted by larryshores:
I heard reports of many many 2011 lion hunters going home without lions. Is this truly because a lion seen with less than six years old or was it because the quota was oversold?

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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Why would you think that an outfitter would not be motivated to get you a lion?

umm, maybe because they sold more lion hunts than they had tags. Or, maybe they had a "high profile" client coming in the hunt after you and wanted him to shoot the lion.

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

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Originally posted by larryshores:
Think about it for a moment. If one has oversold the quota, all they have to do is age any lion that is seen as less than six years old.I'm not saying anyone has done it. I'm saying is possible.

I heard reports of many many 2011 lion hunters going home without lions. Is this truly because a lion seen with less than six years old or was it because the quota was oversold?

Guys - At this point, its looking like roughly 80 lions were killed country wide in TZ, in 2011/2012. Down from 150 lions killed the previous year, that's almost a 50% decline in success! An obvious outcome from the new law - be it good, or bad!

So, you think the brilliant marketing strategy devised by the Tanzania hunting industry, and outfitters individually, was to drop the success rate by 50%, use the 6 yr old law as the excuse, and hope that'll be a good way to sell $80k - $120k lion safaris the following year? Ya, let's do think about that for a moment?

I too work with several TZ outfitters, of which, they all have 15 plus lions per year on quota - with their numerous hunting blocks. I can't think of the last time any one of them sold ALL 21-day lion hunt safaris they had available in a single year, ever? Much less over-selling the lion hunts they have available each year. Fact is, not I or any of them - have ever found it that easy to sell 15 - 20, $80k - $120k lion safaris each and every year.

So now, some of you guys think the idea was to push for a 6yr old or nothing law, knowing full well the success rates would drop, and hoping that would be the holy grail towards selling even more "big money" safaris, REALLY????? Somewhere along the lines, I obviously must have been absent that day in business/marketing class?

Folks, like alot of these threads, this one too has degraded to accusations, insinuations, and plain out speculation - as it pertains to the evil Tanzanian outfitters who are simply out to steal all your money, and send you home empty-handed. All from a guy asking about how many of us have lion hunted, and got one or not?

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There were 250 lions killed in TZ in 2009, 150 in 2010, & 80 in 2011/12 season. The maximum quota allowed was not approached in any of those seasons. Not having a lion available for a hunter with a tag was not an issue in 2010 or 2011/12 for sure as the quota did not change.

According to my sources...you have about a 20% chance of killing a 6 year old lion in TZ in this day and time.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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There were 250 lions killed in TZ in 2009, 150 in 2010, & 80 in 2011/12 season. The maximum quota allowed was not approached in any of those seasons. Not having a lion available for a hunter with a tag was not an issue in 2010 or 2011/12 for sure as the quota did not change.

According to my sources...you have about a 20% chance of killing a 6 year old lion in TZ in this day and time.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

It would seem to me that a better statistic for the possibility put forward by myself and others would be how many "lion hunters" there were in comparison to your "kill" statistics above.

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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There were 250 lions killed in TZ in 2009, 150 in 2010, & 80 in 2011/12 season. The maximum quota allowed was not approached in any of those seasons. Not having a lion available for a hunter with a tag was not an issue in 2010 or 2011/12 for sure as the quota did not change.

According to my sources...you have about a 20% chance of killing a 6 year old lion in TZ in this day and time.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

It would seem to me that a better statistic for the possibility put forward by myself and others would be how many "lion hunters" there were in comparison to your "kill" statistics above.

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It would seem to me that a better statistic for the possibility put forward by myself and others would be how many "lion hunters" there were in comparison to your "kill" statistics above.

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Originally posted by larryshores:
Aaron:

All I said was that the six year rule would make it easier to oversell lion quota. That should be fairly obvious to anyone who gives it thought.