Mighty Joe
I am with you. It is not always about the "points, inches, or pounds". It is about the hunt. And for me it is about the shot.
Not too long ago I was at a fellas house, he had 2 buff on the wall, I asked him which one he liked the best, he picked the one on the left, as he said it scored higher. I told him I liked the one on the right better.... But I would have shot the one on the left too.

On any hunt there are so many variables, you cannot judge a "trophy" by "score" alone.

To Don Bass, Nice animals. I have hunted the OMAY. You did good.

I shot a cow buff while in the OMAY, it was just as challenging, exciting, and dangerous as my buff hunt. Maybe even more so as I shot the cow at about 12 yards.

Thanks Joe
I've been sitting here seething over some of the comments that i've read.
Your post sums it up prefectly!!

I've got no problem with somebody suggesting that they would have done something different, but to denigrate another persons trophy, publically, is showing no class.

Look how proud ol' mate is there with his buffalo.I really hope he never reads this rubbish.He made his dream come true for himself.
He is a champion and should be regarded as such.

Respectfully, N E 450 No2, you, as well as Mighty Joe, are entirely missing the point.

This is not about "points." It's about whether to shoot an immature animal or not. An amimal that you, or the PH, if you must rely on him, must know will, in several years, make a truly magnificent trophy.

Not the heat of the moment, nor the pathetic desire not to go home empty handed, will justify shooting an immature animal, much less boasting about it.

I don't deny that it happens, or that it hasn't happened to me. But I will say this. When it does happen, if it is acknowledged at all, it must be acknowledged as a mistake and one that is regretted, and not bruited about as if it were a point of pride.

quote:

Originally posted by mix3006:
Thanks Joe
I've been sitting here seething over some of the comments that i've read.
Your post sums it up prefectly!!

I've got no problem with somebody suggesting that they would have done something different, but to denigrate another persons trophy, publically, is showing no class.

Look how proud ol' mate is there with his buffalo.I really hope he never reads this rubbish.He made his dream come true for himself.
He is a champion and should be regarded as such.

And you too are bloody well wrong and sentimentally stupid about it as well.

I hope he does read this thread, because if he does, he may learn something about standards. Say what you will about rubbish, but rubbish is implying that the killing of an immature animal by a sport hunter is admirable.

That is rubbish and a full lorry load of it, enough even to shame SCI and Rowland Ward, too.

Who's taking the heat now, Will?

Maybe we should all shoot cows and calves when we're not busy peeling spuds in our dotage, what?

MR
I NEVER judge another persons "Trophy" by MY standards.

As to shooting "cows, does, and hens, I think in certain locations it is very necessary to maintain proper herd populations.

Sentimentally stupid?
Thanks MR, yes I'll take that as a compliment.
I always feel very happy for hunters showing off their trophies and dissapointed for them when things don't work out.Sentimental fool that I am.

Maybe you could post a photo of your first bull so we could all realise the standard that must be attained.

I look foward to seeing it.

Yes, of course, there are no standards. How stupid of me to suggest otherwise.

Christ help me, but ignorance does truly know no bounds. The point is this: These aren't MY standards. These are THE standards. And if you don't or won't recognize them, then you don't know the first thing about the first thing.

And just for you mix3006, not that I really feel the need to respond or justify myself, but my first buff was a gnarly old 33" wide, 12" bossed, lion scarred old lead herd bull.

Which I would trade for the youngster posted here on any bright, sunny East African day.

Let me also add this. Every hunter had different desires and expetations.
For instance, I have only been to Africa one time, my second hunt for 31 days is for March 2006. I will NEVER shoot an elephant or buff at a distance with a scoped rifle. If I can't take my buff or ele, or hippo with an iron sighted double rifle, then I just will not get one.
However I do not critize others who do differently.
Different strokes for different folks.
If you shoot your animal with a scoped 375, and you are happy, I am happy with you.

When in Zim I told my PH that I did not want to shoot a "dink". I told him if it was a good representive of the species, simply say shoot.
An inch here or there, a hair here or there has never "made or ruined" a hunt for me.
I always want to come home with the animal[s] I am hunting.... but the real adventure is in the hunt, not the kill.

I don't think anyone is blaming the hunter nor are they denigrating his trophy. The PH alone is to blame for allowing a client to shoot an immature trophy. Period!

It's got nothing to do with score or points just simple hunting standards. Bill Pritchard's buff on the other thread is a fantastic trophy, yet he is no more than 38" wide. Nothing wrong with that is there?

I would be damn proud of these, and thanks for the pig... striking exmaple..

the sable is gorgeous...

and just because the dugga MIGHT not have a head as hard as some of our members (just kidding guys)...

excellent job, and I wish I could have been there with you

jeffe

Gentlemen, it is imaterial what you would, or wouldn't shoot! This was not your hunt it belonged to Mr. Bass, and it is absolutely none of your buisness what he shot! There is no such thing a "THE standards" as long as what you take is legal. The particulars of any hunt leading up to the collection of a particular animal is what counts, not somebody's OPINION, or measurements in some dusty old book!

An example: I have a Cape Buffalo mounted, and placed in a prominant place in my trophy room. This Buffalo has only a 37" spread, with about 5" of his left horn tip broken off. He has a full 4" of scalp between his bosses. He will just NEARLY make minimum for SCI book, if that interests anyone! I consider this the best Cape Buffalo I've ever taken, not because of how old he was, or how hard his boss was, or a tape measure STANDARD, that some seem to think is so important! I value him because while tracking some Buffalo, My PH, and I spotted a real buster of a Cookson's wildebeast. It was the first day of hunting, and we decided to try for the willie, because we might never see another as good. We abandoned the Buff spoor, and took to stalking up on the Willie. I was carrying my 500/450NE double rifle for Bufflao,so had to get a lot closer to make a very well placed shot. With our attention fixed on the willie, we failed to see this lone Buff Bull in the jesse, to our right. As we passed, he cought our wind, and came chargeing out of the thorn, from a standing start of about 30 yds, and though we could hear him comming, we couldn't see him till he cleared the bush at about 15 yds, already running full tilt. I fired first with a soft from the right barrel hitting him sqare in the chest with a 480 gr Woodliegh soft. My PH fired a split second after I did hitting in almost the same hole, with his 375 H&H 300 gr soft. The two shots slowed him a little, but not for more than a stumble, and he came on. My next shot hit him in the nose with the Woodliegh solid from the left barrel, and the second 375, also a solid, missed the nose, and went into the mouth, exiting the jaw, and re-entering into the right shoulder, and ended up between the scapula, and the ribs. When he hit the ground, his nose was no more than six feet from where my shoe HAD BEEN, when I ran dry in my double! I quickly reloaded, as I made a space of another 10 feet away from this old boy! Now, I have two 44" buffs, and a few that are between the one discussed here, and those two 44's , but I would trade all the bigger ones for the experience that the 37" soft top gave me in a heart beat!

I have never regestered an animal in any book in my life, though I have some that would score high in anybody's book, and I don't carry a tape measure, on any hunt. If the hunt is hard, or the conditions warrent it, I shoot him! If he is in a pen, or standing by the hunting car on the road, I wouldn't shoot him if he had 50" horns! Those are my standards, and I don't impose them on anyone else, they most likely have their own standards! So you can take your opinoins, and standards, and do with them as you will, but you weren't there when Bass took his buffalo,and have no idea what went on there, so I say shut the hell up, and tend to your own business!

...............BYE

mrlexma,

Have you ever thought about chilling out? The fellow had a fine hunt and I bet he enjoyed it. Most people want to be happy and he probably is. Your posts come across as being written by an unhappy person. Might want to work on that, IMHO.

Your signature line reflects well on your current actions.

quote:

Gentlemen, it is imaterial what you would, or wouldn't shoot! This was not your hunt it belonged to T, and it is absolutely none of your buisness what he shot!

Mac, I would not want to argue with you but I think T or his outfit arranged the hunt for this particular client, and that T was not the hunter.

It is possile that I am mistaken.

quote:

Originally posted by Longbob:
mrlexma,

Have you ever thought about chilling out? The fellow had a fine hunt and I bet he enjoyed it. Most people want to be happy and he probably is. Your posts come across as being written by an unhappy person. Might want to work on that, IMHO.

Your signature line reflects well on your current actions.

Maybe I was a bit harsh. But let me put it this way. Only an ignorant hunter (and I don't mean that pejoratively--I mean it literally, as in a hunter with no or little knowledge of what he is doing) is happy killing an immature animal. The point is that there are standards in this world, and that includes big game hunting, especially what we call "trophy" hunting. It is far better to go home empty handed than go home with an immature trophy.

And in case I haven't made it clear yet, I'm not saying that one should only kill the ones with the absolute biggest, hardest bosses or the longest horns here. I'm talking about something much more fundamental. Killing only mature bulls, not young ones that need several more years of life before they are suitable to hunt. That is what responsible hunting is all about. That is what game management and the PH's ethic over decades of hunting experience are all about.

That I should have to point this out, and that in doing so I should create even the SLIGHTEST controversy among African big game hunters of any experience is a sad fact, IMO.

Now I don't think that the hunter pictured in this thread is a bad guy. I have no cause to think or say anything like that. He probably thinks he killed a great buff. On the other hand, he probably doesn't know much about buff trophy quality (other than making the mistake of thinking that bigger is always better). Like most tourist hunters, he probably shot what the PH told him to shoot.

In this case, I have to conclude that the PH failed to do his job.

There, now I've chilled out. And I really am very happy. I do call a spade a spade and don't apologize for it to anyone and yes, sometimes that does get me into a bit of temporary trouble. But just for you, Longbob, in this instance let me say that if I've said anything I'm sorry for, I'm willing to be forgiven.

Now, I've got to head off to the range and do a little work with my .416.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Gentlemen, it is imaterial what you would, or wouldn't shoot! This was not your hunt it belonged to T, and it is absolutely none of your buisness what he shot!

Mac, I would not want to argue with you but I think T or his outfit arranged the hunt for this particular client, and that T was not the hunter.

It is possile that I am mistaken.

No you're not mistaken, it is I who made the mistake! I edited my post to reflect the proper name of the hunter, Thanks for the correction. It makes little difference who shot the Buffalo! Who ever it was he had his reasons for spending "HIS MONEY" for that Buffalo, and I'm glad for him! Who are we to down grade his hunt? is my point!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Who are we to down grade his hunt? is my point!

I have no argument with anything you posted. I respect your opinions as much as anyone else who posts here, and much more than most. I do think that if an outfitter or booking agent posts trophy pictures to show what they have done for clients, they should be prepared to answer questions, good or bad, about the hunt. I am happy for anyone that gets to hunt buffalo. One day I hope it is me. I am not qualified to judge the buffalo's age or quality and have no desire to judge the client or PH.

My thought is, is the bull "immature"? That term keeps coming up along with comparisons to cows and calves. That bull probably was running with a herd of cows, in peak breeding shape, had fought most of the old bulls out of the herd and had been breeding since he was two or three years old. Is he soft bossed? Yes. Immature, not by my definition. And it is absolutely ridiculous to compare him to shooting a calf!
Hell I grew up a rancher's son, still run over 100 mama cows and we put breeding bulls out at eighteen months to two years of age. Pulled and sold them when they hit eight or nine years of age because they were past peak breeding age. I figure that bull was four or five. He is in his prime. Sexually mature but not past peak breeding age. I see blood running out of his nose but I don't see any milk on his chin! So call him soft bossed or call him a trophy, but immature he is not! Congrats to the hunter!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by Longbob:
mrlexma,

Have you ever thought about chilling out? The fellow had a fine hunt and I bet he enjoyed it. Most people want to be happy and he probably is. Your posts come across as being written by an unhappy person. Might want to work on that, IMHO.

Your signature line reflects well on your current actions.

Maybe I was a bit harsh. But let me put it this way. Only an ignorant hunter (and I don't mean that pejoratively--I mean it literally, as in a hunter with no or little knowledge of what he is doing) is happy killing an immature animal. The point is that there are standards in this world, and that includes big game hunting, especially what we call "trophy" hunting. It is far better to go home empty handed than go home with an immature trophy.

And in case I haven't made it clear yet, I'm not saying that one should only kill the ones with the absolute biggest, hardest bosses or the longest horns here. I'm talking about something much more fundamental. Killing only mature bulls, not young ones that need several more years of life before they are suitable to hunt. That is what responsible hunting is all about. That is what game management and the PH's ethic over decades of hunting experience are all about.

That I should have to point this out, and that in doing so I should create even the SLIGHTEST controversy among African big game hunters of any experience is a sad fact, IMO.

Now I don't think that the hunter pictured in this thread is a bad guy. I have no cause to think or say anything like that. He probably thinks he killed a great buff. On the other hand, he probably doesn't know much about buff trophy quality (other than making the mistake of thinking that bigger is always better). Like most tourist hunters, he probably shot what the PH told him to shoot.

In this case, I have to conclude that the PH failed to do his job.

There, now I've chilled out. And I really am very happy. I do call a spade a spade and don't apologize for it to anyone and yes, sometimes that does get me into a bit of temporary trouble. But just for you, Longbob, in this instance let me say that if I've said anything I'm sorry for, I'm willing to be forgiven.

Now, I've got to head off to the range and do a little work with my .416.

I knew you were a pretty cool guy. And you just proved it! Be well and start one holing that 416.

Well, after reading this thread my only thought is that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. I guess if we all agreed this would be a boring place to be.

I'd be shocked to learn that Don isn't the son of Ernest T. Bass of Andy Griffith fame. The resemblance is scary!

As to the buffalo, my feeling is that if the hunter is happy, that's great. Who the hell are those to say what Don should have, or should not have shot? It wasn't your friggin' safari--it was HIS.

Oh, and that sable is beautiful.

I'd been musing about this very subject for a few days and had been meaning to start a thread about "What makes a trophy?". Almost everything I wanted to say has already been said in this discussion. It's a lot easier to discuss "trophy quality" of North American antlered animals, because they generally grow a bigger set each year, and with African animals reach a peak in trophy quality and then decline, at least as far as the record books are concerned (emphasis on the part about "as far as the record books are concerned).

My final thought was "the eye of the beholder". A big part of that would be the hunters memories of the hunt itself which gives the animal immortality of a sort. If you only want smooth horned geriatrics: good for you. If you only want needle tipped record book animals, there's a place for you in the hunting world too as long as you can still enjoy the hunt while passing that 58 inch kudu because you're holding out for the 60 incher.

Also don't forget the importance of "first" animals. My first whitetail was an 9 pointer, still a little young, rack didn't quite make it out to the edges of his ears, but he will always be a trophy to me because he was my first buck.

As long as the hunt was enjoyable, almost any animal can be a trophy to someone. If it isn't a trophy to you, go ahead and pass on it and remember the occasion when you do get the one you wanted. It'll make the one you consider a trophy all that much more of a trophy to you. Who knows, someone may be passing on the animal you want at the same time you're passing on the one they want.

On my first Buff hunt to Africa I was lucky enough that my hunting partner was very experienced in African hunting, so I made sure I learnt all I could about the game and found out "in his eyes" a great trophy was a old animal that was past his prime,this made total sense to me, had I not hunted that trip with him I would have relied on the PH's assessment , since then I have enjoyed hunting Africa often and have found this FORUM which I enjoy and find it very informative on the subject.
Also we saw a few Lions and there spoor in the Omay last year and in 2003 had to lion hunters in camp one after the other, one missing the shot and one not able to line up, both good cats in different areas of Omay.they are there.
Please keep your opinions on our sport coming.

When I was eleven years old my Dad went to great pains to set up a ground blind so that we could go deer hunting. We spent a lot of time at the range practicing. He would sit with me as we looked at photos of deer in outdoor magazines and make pencil marks showing proper shot placement. Not once was the required age of the deer or size of antlers discussed.

During our hunt a yearling spike walked out at 30 yards and stood broadside. With my Dad's hand on my shoulder I took my first buck. The rack was impressive - about 4" of tine length on each side and perfectly matched. For many years it has hung proudly on my wall as an antler mount. Dad even made the plaque in his woodshop and cleaned the European style skull cap for me.

Now, after 40 more years of hunting, I can still recount every moment of that hunt, and the pride my Dad showed to his friends.

Dad is gone now, and I've been able to hunt places that he only dreamed about - Africa, Canada, several lower US states, and even Alaska to name a few. But with all my hunting, that hunt with my Dad is still, by far, the most special.

I have now learned that my Dad was wrong. Because the deer was immature, it should not have been taken, and my Dad was wrong for being proud of me. I have learned that it was only because of my ignorance ("as in a hunter with no or little knowledge of what he is doing") that I was happy in taking that deer. I was not aware that my Dad was also "ignorant" ("as in a hunter with no or little knowledge of what he is doing") and let me shoot that deer. He should have told an excited 11 year old that "there are standards in this world, and that includes big game hunting", and that we should wait for a real "trophy".

Here's the bottom line . . . no one, regardless of hunting experience, knowledge, or self assignment to a level of judgement, has any right to put their standards (or what is considered "accepted standards") on someone else's trophy. A trophy is often measured in more important ways than the number of inches on a tape measure or the hardness of a boss. We don't know the details of this gentleman's cape buffalo hunt (but I'd sure like to hear them!). Further, we don't have the right to judge him.

Personally I congratulate him!

Just my $ .02

JDS

I'd shoot it in a heart beat and no apologies to anyone. It would be the biggest Buff anyone in this part of Alaska has ever seen.
Who cares if it isn't "mature." How do you define that? Who came up with the notion that you should never shoot a Buff unless it has a "Hard Boss,"?
How do you tell if a Kudu is "mature"? If I see one that's 55", I sure wouldn't want to screw up and shoot it if its not "mature".
My Safari, my money, I'll shoot one with Mothers milk on his chin if I want to, and it's legal.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
That is what responsible hunting is all about. That is what game management and the PH's ethic over decades of hunting experience are all about.

No, not really.
It is not what game management is all about, you are somewhat deluded here.

Rather, it is the exact opposite of responsible and knowledgeable *game management*. The meaning of this term is apparently not well known to you; you seem to mistake it for something else.

Carcano

Didn't Tanzania recently bring out a law that Lion's had to be six plus years old to be legally shot on licence?
I thought this was to minimize pressure on breeding aged animals and might not be the same for Buffalo but I feel a lot better taking animals that have already contributed to the gene pool, be it worn down tiped Kudu or cranky old Duggerboys.

When I was in Tanz the PH said most of his German clients had a different standard as trophy quality. They wanted an old worn down bull preferably with one horn broken and the more scarred up the better. Is this wrong? On that same hunt I killed a nice(by my standards) 38 inch bull. My son 18 at the time had pulled a shot and lost a bull on the second day. He was so upset with himself. He wouldn't talk for a day and a half. He hunted all week to get another shot and redeem himself to himself. Each day the herds were all cows or the lone bull would stay in the very center of the herd or the wind would shift and they were gone. On the last day he got his chance and made a great shot and shot a 40 incher through the nose. We got another chance at some other buffs. I had an old bull not nearly as big as my son's that gave me a chance. Last day last hour. I took it. It is an old worn down gnarly bull with horns at best at about 30 inches. I took a smaller bull because I wanted it to be not as big as my son's. It was his day in the sun. We all get too few of those. I did not in any way want to steal any of his thunder. His view of himself as a hunter will never be the same because of that day. The bull I took that day is not my favorite bull. The skull nevertheless sits in my dinning room. If someone asks why I killed such a small bull. My answer will be, "I had my reasons". D

Let me say this and no more:

A young, or immature, but potentially excellent trophy animal, should not be shot out of a herd because it is poor game and poor big game trophy management. A young animal, such as the one in this thread, has several years left to grow, mature and breed, and thereby contribute his excellent genetic make up to the herd's gene pool.

Given the time it will take him to grow into a fully mature herd bull, he will spread his excellent genes throughout the herd, and the health and trophy quality of the herd will be much the better for it.

Plus, he himself will mature. The soft, hairy skin between his bosses (which, when cut away, as it must be when he is skinned, will leave a six to eight inch naked patch of skull between his horns) will be replaced by heavy, thick horn bosses.

From this perspective, only old daga boys would be shot. Of course that is not the case, and many would argue should not be the case. Still, some PHs are very strong in their beliefs that hunters should pursue only old daga boys in small bachelor groups and not any of the younger bulls in large breeding herds.

For anyone interested in cape buffalo hunting and all that it involves, I can highly recommend the excellent book, "Nyati," and in particular the chapter entitled, "The Fine Art of Trophy Judgement in the Field," published by African Hunter magazine.

[Edited because enough is enough.]

I agree with TJ, at 42.5 inchs I would shoot the sucker if he had diapers on. I have had only one hunt, but enough experience there to know when you see that width, it stands out. Let the boss behanged. Good shooting.

Most bulls that big are shot, and the hunter is paying for the hunt and that choice is in all fairness his and his alone, so whatever he does is acceptable and correct....,

Todays PHs say shoot when Buff are that big and are properly to blame, but they are under pressure to produce....I have learned to be indifferent to this...

The thing that keeps bothering me is if we keep up this practice then the day of the big bulls will soon come to an end,and that may be just around the corner, as they will all be killed before they are mature and then some sho nuff trophy hunter is deprived of a real old dagga boy, so much the shame..I have seen this in many species, and the elephant is a prime example as is the Lion to a lesser extent as Lion managment is much more complex...It is a decision we, as individuals and sportsman, must make...A bull Bufflo gets his full growth of horn in width by the time he is 3 years old, then the maturing process begins to take place as the boss grows until he has hard ridged and big heavy wide bosses with no fur showing in the frontal crease, to further his trophy quality the bosses become shiney and worn smooth on top in his later years, his hide and ears are in tatters, his tail may be gone from Lion quests, and his hide shows the scars of a thousand battles, then and only then is that bull the holy grail..His muzzle is white and he is a "Dagga Boy"...That, to me, is a trophy...

I do not set myself up above others here as I have killed many bulls that were less than mature in my career of about 125 or more kills, However it is something that I will try to adhere to in the future..I decided that some time ago, but only after shooting many buffalo and that does make it easier for me to be choosey. Could I have done this early on, I doubt it unless I was not allowed to...This is why the safari companies need to take the bull by the tail/horns, and change our thinking, its up to them to show something other than greed for the almighty dollar, will it happen? certainly not as there are always some that won't play the game fair..so the status quo will remain the same.

And thats my word, as they say on the FOX channel ..........

mrlexma, My guess, you being from Mass. is that you are really a closet whimp and probably belong to PETA. Now is that personal enough for you? You should be ashamed of your idiotic post and should apologize to Mr. Bass. He was obviously proud of the animal or he wouldn't have posted it.

Sprig

Boomer Sooner!!!

quote:

Originally posted by bullsprig:
mrlexma, My guess, you being from Mass. is that you are really a closet whimp and probably belong to PETA. Now is that personal enough for you? You should be ashamed of your idiotic post and should apologize to Mr. Bass. He was obviously proud of the animal or he wouldn't have posted it.

Man, that is WEAK! With all the time you've had to think this through, that's the best you can manage?

You could have saved yourself the mental strain and just gone here and voted to shoot me:

Cape Buffalo Hunting Poll

I think we sometimes forget that a lot of game is taken according to circumstances, often with something less than a "real good look". It is not always possible to size up a bull from the best angle or distance. The bull in question would look good from all but a frontal view and even then, it would require close inspection, assuming time to do so. I can see any hunter or PH figuring the odds good that this big fellow would prove fully mature at the walk up. These things happen, nobody's fault. Day six of a seven day hunt, biggest spread seen all week with but an instant to decide ... and all that.
Shot my best bull with but a glance of one hook. We both knew he was small bodied and we never saw the other half of him until after the shot but we felt the odds were with us. He was also, the first of two bulls on quota, a good advantage for the trophy hunter.