CBP just declined to sign 4457 for me because I don't have a temporary export license. They appear to have just reinstated this requirement (memo circulated in the last 2 weeks) . Anyone else run into this?

The ATF FAQ page shows last reviewed July 18. I was able to get forms done a month ago...



https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q...cense-export-firearm

Does a licensee need an export license to export a firearm?
Most firearms and ammunition must be exported in accordance with the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976. Regulations implementing this Act generally require a license to be obtained from the U.S. Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. Additional information may be accessed online at: " original_font_attr="-1" original_line_height_attr="" style="">https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/.<https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/>;
The export of sporting shotguns and ammunition for sporting shotguns is regulated by the U.S. Department of Commerce. An export license is generally needed to export these shotguns and ammunition. For further information, contact the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Industry and Security. Contact information may be found online at: https://www.bis.doc.gov/.
When exporting NFA firearms, an ATF Form 9, Application and Permit for Permanent Exportation of Firearms<" original_font_attr="-1" original_line_height_attr="" style="">https://www.atf.gov/file/11351/download>;, must be approved by ATF prior to export.
[22 U.S.C. 2778; 27 CFR 479.114 and 479.116]
Last Reviewed July 18, 2019

Why does this crap always come back up when I'm getting ready to head back over!! Grrr!!!!

I'm going to CBP in Cleveland next week to have a couple "renewed" since the SAPS idiots cant stand an outdated form....

Call first...of course I called and nothing was said until I got there.

Charles, I had not heard this. I know that the CBP suspended its rules regarding electronic registration for travelers with firearms as of April 23, 2015, and I had thought that suspension was still in effect. See here:

The Hunting Report Story on CBP Suspension

But when I tried just now to follow the link in The Hunting Report story to the CBP suspension notice, I noticed that mention of the suspension is no longer included.

Instead, the CBP site now states that travelers must "file Electronic Export Information (EEI) for temporary export of personally owned firearms via the Automated Export System (AES) prior to departure from the United States." See here:

CBP Site

So, the suspension seems to have been lifted. One more headache.

Excuse my ignorance but where exactly is this additional requirement located online? That's assuming it can me completed online?

https://www.ice.gov/cpi/faq#wcm-survey-target-id


See attached link under frequently asked questions, "going hunting to Africa", I am making numerous phone calls trying to get information.


Frequently Asked Questions

What government agencies regulate the export of firearms and ammunition from the U.S.?
What is required when traveling internationally with firearms and/or ammunition for personal use in recreational activities such as hunting and shooting sports competitions?
What is the process for properly reporting the possession of an export license or declaring a temporary export licensing exemption?
What is AESDirect?
What is an Internal Transaction Number?
Can I use a CBP Form 4457 - Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad to declare the temporary export of firearms/ammunition rather than filing the EEI in AESDirect?
If I qualify for an export license exemption under 22 C.F.R. § 123.17 is there anything else I need to be aware of before I depart the United States with firearms and/or ammunition?
I am going hunting in Africa and plan to take a rifle and rifle ammunition; do I need to obtain an export license?
I am a U.S. person taking a shotgun and shotgun shells to Canada for hunting and recreational shooting. Do I need a license?
Do the temporary export regulations only apply to individuals traveling with firearms on commercial airlines?
Where can I find additional information about the importation and exportation of firearms?


Last Reviewed/Updated: 04/16/2019

From the link I posted.



I am going hunting in Africa and plan to take a rifle and rifle ammunition; do I need to obtain an export license?


No, 22 C.F.R. § 123.17 allows U.S. persons to temporarily export up to three (3) firearms (rifles and/or handguns) and up to 1000 rounds of related ammunition without a license providing that they will be returned to the United States. However, the exporter is still required to make a declaration via the Automated Export System (AES), pursuant to 22 C.F.R. § 123.22(a) and submit the AES Internal Transaction Number (ITN) along with the firearms/ammunition to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) for visual inspection prior to departure from the U.S. NOTE: U.S. persons exporting firearms and ammunition from the United States using a valid license exemption are responsible for knowing and complying with any foreign laws requiring an import permit or advanced authorization prior to transporting or carrying firearms and ammunition into the foreign country. Attempting to bring firearms into a foreign country without prior authorization or permission from the appropriate foreign officials may result in arrest, criminal prosecution, seizure of personally owned firearms and ammunition, and/or denial of entry into the country.

Charles,

I just called my contact in CBP. As soon as he gets back to me I'll post his response.

Mark

Charles,

This is BS. Check your PM's.

Mark

The officer was holding the memo and the supervisor said the same. Doesn't mean it's right....but

I wonder if the Yellow Sticky ITN would still work. I need to get a 4457 for our upcoming trip through Canada.

I'll scoot down to the airport now and see what happens. Report later.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Powell:
Why does this crap always come back up when I'm getting ready to head back over!! Grrr!!!!

One more thing that might come up, the latest 4457 form has an "expiration" date of 8/31/2019. I was in SA a couple of weeks ago and it was brought to my attention by SAPS...no need to tell them the form doesn't expire, they really don't care. I asked CBP about it upon my return, of course they said that the for doesn't expire. One officer even took the time to try and find out when a "new" form would be issued and was told nothing was coming soon (meaning before 8/31/19). I'm headed to Moz on 8/29, arriving SA on 8/31 and have applied for the SAPS transit permit, I'll see what happens.
Nothing was said to me about a temporary export permit when I got a new 4457 about a month ago.

CBP has been keeping a computer record of all 4457 firearms serial numbers since at least 2012. This is a de facto gun registration record, which, in my understanding is illegal under Federal law. Perhaps someone with a legal background can weigh in here, and tell me that I am wrong, or explain why none of our organizations seem to care about this. I just contacted my local CBP office, and they are unaware of any change in policy.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Charles,

I just called my contact in CBP. As soon as he gets back to me I'll post his response.

Mark

Thanks Mark - Looking forward to what he has to say. Can't believe we are going thru this again!!!

As I said I had no issues a month ago and the agent acknowledged that and said he remembered me...but he had been given new guidance. I have no idea how far up it goes but told the supervisor I would take this up with my representatives and senators and he said go ahead...the damn form literally just saysyou hzve the item and I challenged them both to state they were refusing to sign it and they said yes until I have the number...

This is not legal advice, but I just want to point out that below is the current version of 22 C.F.R. § 123.17(c):

"(c) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:

(1) The person declares the articles to a CBP officer upon each departure from the United States, presents the Internal Transaction Number from submission of the export information through CBP's electronic system(s) per §123.22 (unless electronic reporting of such information is unavailable, in which case U.S. Customs and Border Protection will issue instructions), and the articles are presented to the CBP officer for inspection;

(2) The firearms and accompanying ammunition to be exported is with the individual's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and

(3) The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership. The person must declare that it is his intention to return the article(s) on each return to the United States. The foregoing exemption is not applicable to the personnel referred to in §123.18 of this subchapter."

The suspension of the highlighted language appears/seems to have been lifted, thereby requiring the electronic filing process (and possibly more) as described in the regulations.

To consult the full text of the ITAR, see here:

ITAR

I have been playing around trying to see how difficult it is to get into AES and obtain an ITN. buttpainismaximus!

A lot of confusing and contradictory information has been leading me in a complete circle to multiple government websites. However, I managed to find this "simple" explanation. https://www.census.gov/foreign...ne-Pager-English.pdf

If there is a conspiracy to minimize or eliminate taking firearms and ammunition out of the US, this is part of it. So, you jump through all of these hoops for a meaningless number so a CBP officer will put most of the same bloody information in a computer and sign your CBP form. That is just perfect.

Safe travels...………..LL

Just got home from Anchorage CBP. No problem. Thy didn't ask nor mention an ITN and stamped and signed my 4457.

To those having issues I do recommend you get your Senators and Representative involved. That was literally the only way my problem got solved, albeit a backdoor fix, back in 2015.

I believe the background story about that is in the thread I linked to in my last post here.

Cheers
Jim

That is great news!

I'm going to Cleveland ASAP for mine before they change their minds!!

Charles,
Can you share with us exactly what office you went to? If I remember correctly...you were going to try the office at/near Love Field in Dallas...is that correct?

Yes, it was my second trip to Love Field, but he has instructions to contact his supervisor at the Esters Road office for any firearms forms. Ans I spoke to the supervisor and he told me if I wanted an "explanation" I needed to go there, and that they would refuse to sign the form unless I had the ITN.

I asked then to be clear that they were refusing to sign a form that merely identifies property I have now and they said no....if you get the number. Otherwise, yes we refuse.

Sir,
Please keep us updated as to what happens.

I'm running out of time...long list of things put me behind schedule. May have to punt. Will shoot some emails out tonight.

Two words: CAMP RIFLES

I'm heading to Australia with rifles in 2 weeks.

I emailed Fred at Travel With Guns (bought airline tickets through them) and he said the 4457 is still all we need.

I have already verified camp rifles are available and emailed TWG...but the word of anyone else doesn't keep me out of trouble in the customs line on arrival...

Charles, I sure would like to see that memo they flashed at you. I can’t find any explicit reference to a change of policy anywhere I’ve been able to search.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Charles, I sure would like to see that memo they flashed at you. I can’t find any explicit reference to a change of policy anywhere I’ve been able to search.

I asked to see it and they refused. I do know the reference I posted above was reviewed on the 18th of this month. I am at a loss as to why Dallas has told me this and no other office seems to have knowledge. But I can't force them to issue the forms, and even if I get the forms, I have to qualify to get out and back with the firearms.

Yes I feel snakebit....my ammo was delayed because the maker was trying to get Northfork to send more .375 bullets...the new nice scopes I picked didn't work...had my first ever brass failure in a rifle...I'm pretty sure other things have gone sideways...

Hmmm - since I already have a current 4457 for my trip in September (thank you, Kathi!), I'm interpreting the issue as not applying to me. I'm not seeing anything in this conversation that indicates the need to show anything to CBP in order to check in baggage containing firearms and ammo. As you depart, TSA doesn't look at the 4457s, or at least hasn't been when they do their inspection. Upon return to the States might be an issue, of course, but I think as long as I have a 4457 I should be OK. It's the process of obtaining one of those from CBP that seems to be the choke point.

I sure hope this turns out to be a tempest in a teapot, because I can't follow the online directions on how to file one of those darn declarations.

Looking forward to hearing more clarification on this.... !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
Two words: CAMP RIFLES

One word:

NO!!!

quote:

Originally posted by H T:
Hmmm - since I already have a current 4457 for my trip in September (thank you, Kathi!), I'm interpreting the issue as not applying to me. I'm not seeing anything in this conversation that indicates the need to show anything to CBP in order to check in baggage containing firearms and ammo. As you depart, TSA doesn't look at the 4457s, or at least hasn't been when they do their inspection. Upon return to the States might be an issue, of course, but I think as long as I have a 4457 I should be OK. It's the process of obtaining one of those from CBP that seems to be the choke point.

I sure hope this turns out to be a tempest in a teapot, because I can't follow the online directions on how to file one of those darn declarations.

Looking forward to hearing more clarification on this.... !!!

Are you flying through Joberg? The current "expiration date" on the 4457 I got yesterday was 8/13/19.

We know there is no expiration of the 4457 actually, it's just time for CBP to update the form. But it seems SAPS believe the date sunsets the validity of the form.

Cheers
Jim

I had a 4457 done this morning with no trouble.

Folks,

You do not need a Temporary Export Permit. The CBP agents Charles dealt with are completely misinterpreting the rules or intentionally trying to interfere with his hunt. That is straight from a CBP agent that is a friend of mine. He double checked with his regional office in Denver and the DC office. There has been no new directive. YOU ONLY NEED A 4457.

Mark

quote:

But it seems SAPS believe the date sunsets the validity of the form.

I'm sure the SAPS folks know this is not an actual expiration date but choose to use it as such just to hassle or shakedown US hunters. Remember you're dealing with a racist government in RSA.

I've read somewhere that US Customs doesn't have any new 4457's with a form expiration date later than 8/31/19. Unless some major change is made to the form the feds just keep using the old forms until they are all gone. No telling what SAPS will do after 8/31/19. IF I was traveling through RSA with firearms after that date I would check with one of the permit services in RSA to see if they know anything.

I will probably call the other office tomorrow but this wasn't some random whim. As I said in my first post, I am trying to see if anyone else has run into this. Seems the answer is clearly no.

I talked to a few of my old US Customs buddies, they said its BS, all you need is a 4457, and you need that on guns, cameras, all that says is its yours and you purchased it, a bill of sale for the items is just as good..

Frostbit,
I am indeed flying through Jo'Burg in September and have noted the expiration date on the most recent 4457s. I have been told that SAPS has been told and knows to expect to see those forms for the foreseeable future, past that expiration date. That is coming from a meet and greet service in Jo'Burg. So they have been involved with SAPS officials, and I'm not too concerned.

I was also told they expect to see that the 4457 form presented is one that was completed by the CBP in the current year. I have another trip lined up for March and will need another 4457 form for that very reason. That's why this issue caught my eye to begin with. But it sounds like it was an isolated case of a CBP office having the wrong information.

If I were Charles...I would just drive the the office on Esters Blvd. with the guns and see what they said. That office has never given me any trouble and used it earlier this year.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
It I were Charles...I would just drive the the office on Esters Blvd. with the guns and see what they said. That office has never given me any trouble and used it earlier this year.

That's where the supervisor is that told me to get stuffed (okay I am paraphrasing) and invited me to go there so he could tell me in person. I will call tomorrow probably and see what they say...

I would go with the guns and have him tell me or get it done. Or get up early and run down to Houston.