I received an e-mail last week with some great photos of large male lions. Cars are driving through the lions, taking snapshots out their windows as the lions chew at their tires, etc. I'm told it is a lion breeding program in Gauteng Province, near Johannesburg. There are at least four big males in the photos and a few females. Two questions come to mind.

1. Is there a breeding program for lions in RSA that has any purpose other than a canned lion hunt as the end result?

2. In the wild, male lions are very territorial, yet these pen-raised males seem to have none of that instinct. Is that the case?

These lions would clearly not survive if placed in areas with local pride males.

That said, the lions raised in SA would not be there without human help. And they could have a very important function for the future of all lions.

If situations should arise where lions are needed to replenish certain areas that have become devoid of lions, where else would lions come from?

What better way to supply funds for the raising of lions than to allow hunters to hunt for a fee?

Even if certain hunters find the idea of hunting pen-reared lions abhorent, others may not.

If more lions are enabled to survive for potential needed replacement, the best method of disposal of older specimen should primarily be whatever provides funds for future generations of lions--whether it suits the sensativiites of hunters or Bambiites, or not..

Amen!

I don't personally believe in "canned" hunts -- but I also don't throw rocks at those that either provide them or enjoy them. Each to his own -- they certainly do no harm except to hunting's "image" among the ignorant -- and the ignorant will never support hunting in any case.

On the other hand, South African Lion breeders -- and, the "canned" hunts that support them do quite a lot of good. These Lions, returned to the wild in areas where their wild-born brethren have all but disappeared may well determine whether or not ANY wild Lions exist in Africa over the long term.

Lion breeding and the "canned" hunts that support them aren't all that different than the Black Rhino programs that are bringing that magnificent beast back from oblivion. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

There are at least 2 lion exhibits in the RSA that breed lions for show. One can pay a small fee and walk around and see the lions. One can even go in the cage with some of the young one and pick them up.

They do have a few males that are massive.

Definitely worth seeing.

quote:

These Lions, returned to the wild in areas where their wild-born brethren have all but disappeared may well determine whether or not ANY wild Lions exist in Africa over the long term.

Oldhandgunhunter - are you aware of any breeder than actaully returns lions to the wild in sginificant, self sustaining popualtions in South Africa? I am just curious as i havent heard of any who do it with any biological significance, barring places that release small groups into larger camps (say 2000acres) for viewing or hunting.

Kensco FYI- lionesses are actaully more spacially territorial than males. Coalitions of males are highly defensive of their prides, less so of space. In fact the phenomenon of territoriality in lions has been argued by top lion researchers who define teritoriality as either spatial (eg females) or social (more males). It may be semantics but some argue territoriality, others homerange behaviour. The common outcome is that they are territorial but also occupy homeranges lrager than areas the pride defends.

I'll second Kayaker's comments, and (with all due respect) I'll add that (IMO) the pen bred Lions in SA have very little, if any contribution to make to any form of Lion conservation.

The facts as I see them are that if released into areas that already have Lions, you'd almost certainly cause an immense damage to pride dynamics which would probably cause the death of more (mostly younger) Lions than you'd be adding to the population and most of those areas that don't have Lions are either too small to support a viable population of them or they're not wanted for other reasons.

I appreciate there's a good argument for increasing/adding to the gene pool but that could be done with artificial insemenation from existing stocks held elsewhere and by using AI, you don't affect the aforementioned pride dynamics etc in the way a release of animals would do.

I probably don't need to mention my opinion on canned Lion hunting and those who are involved in it.

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
[QUOTE]These Lions, returned to the wild in areas where their wild-born brethren have all but disappeared may well determine whether or not ANY wild Lions exist in Africa over the long term.

Oldhandgunhunter - are you aware of any breeder than actaully returns lions to the wild in sginificant, self sustaining popualtions in South Africa? I am just curious as i havent heard of any who do it with any biological significance, barring places that release small groups into larger camps (say 2000acres) for viewing or hunting.

No, my understanding is the same as yours, captive bred Lions have only been released in limited numbers in limited places. The only point that I was making was that I believe we can forecast a day when that will change and we'll see captive bred Lions introduced throughout Africa to recreate the wild stocks that have disappeared. Pride dynamics are important, but they won't matter much when the wild beasts no longer exist.

Certainly, I could be dead wrong about this -- but too many species have disappeared under poor conservation practices to bet against it becoming necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:
Lion breeding and the "canned" hunts that support them aren't all that different than the Black Rhino programs that are bringing that magnificent beast back from oblivion.

OHGH,

I forgot to reply to that comment in my original post. As I see it, they're vastly different, both because of the way the hunting/shooting takes place and also because of the relationship differences between the two species.

Could I perhaps ask you to explain what you mean?

quote:

Could I perhaps ask you to explain what you mean?

I know that the two situations have differences -- as different as the two animals involved. What I meant to convey, however, is that the wild Black Rhino was extinct, was bred in captivity and reintroduced (so far on a very limited basis) to a few areas throughout Southern Africa and very limited hunting has, thus, been made possible.

Similarly, wild free-range Lion hunting has all but disappeared in South Africa -- there is a little left, but VERY little -- and captive Lions have been bred and reintroduced into areas for the purposes of providing more widespread Lion hunting in SA.

I have no way of predicting the future, but I expect that these two examples will, over time, become more similar, rather than less.

Certainly, you're in a better position than I am to make such predictions, but I have watched similar developments here in the US -- widespread reintroduction of the Timber Wolf being probably the most similar to what could happen with the Lion over time -- and success to date has exceeded everybody's expectations.

That's all that I meant, no more no less.

Not extinct, but certainly in deep trouble as a species.

Personally, I can't see it working the same way with Lions as it did with Rhinos (for a variety of reasons) in the foreseeable future. Esp as there are plenty of other gene sources and surplus Lions elsewhere.

Like I said, as I see it, these Lions that have been bred by the SA farmers have no contribution to make to any part of the larger picture.

I don't know a hell of a lot about wolves but from what various clients have told me in the past, I appreciate your point about them.

Back in the late 60's early 70's I read all types of hoopla over raising African plains game on fenced ranches in Texas. How it would lead to the runination of the "African safari experience",etc., etc.
Today 30-40 years later many of those Texas born animals are used to replenish native born wildlife...India blackbuck antelope comes first to mind I'm certain there are others.
The same principles will work in areas devoid of native born lions an to think it wouldn't is folly at best. ** note the word devoid**
I can think of no better or nobler use for over age captive lions than to aide in funding any type of reintroduction program thru finding people willing to purchase them for shooting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shakari:
Like I said, as I see it, these Lions that have been bred by the SA farmers have no contribution to make to any part of the larger picture.
[QUOTE]

Time will tell. I have little doubt, however, that sooner or later something will have to be done to help with the survival of the truly free range Lion -- and I know as well that smarter people than me will decide what approach is best.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Back in the late 60's early 70's I read all types of hoopla over raising African plains game on fenced ranches in Texas. How it would lead to the runination of the "African safari experience",etc., etc.
Today 30-40 years later many of those Texas born animals are used to replenish native born wildlife...India blackbuck antelope comes first to mind I'm certain there are others.
The same principles will work in areas devoid of native born lions an to think it wouldn't is folly at best. ** note the word devoid**
I can think of no better or nobler use for over age captive lions than to aide in funding any type of reintroduction program thru finding people willing to purchase them for shooting.

just out of curiosity, did you eat the canned lion you shot? - just asking after reading your tag line.

The key issue with lion conservation (or just about any large predator) has little to do with lions inherently, they are very fecund, but the main conservation issue is rather with space.

In SA's case also to do with property rights on wildlife, viz few ranchers want them as they eat other game, unless the lions can reap net benefits (and other variables like liability).

I other countries their conservation has a lot to do with space and competition from people and livestock first and foremost, not with the actual ability of them to expand or remain biolgically viable (small gentically isolated populations aside). Loss of habitat and encroachment is major.

This is a very touchy subject, and I seem to get spanked every time I post on one! At this time I agree there isn't much chance of releasing the pen-reared lions into the wild. Also, I have absolutely no interest in hunting a lion in such a manner. BUT I don't have a problem with those who do; I had my chances in the 70s and 80s, when a lion was a fairly normal part of a safari bag, and prices were a fraction of what they are today. I have a huge problem with the operators selling these hunts as "wild lions" (which is actually against South African law), but you see it done at every hunting convention. That's bullshit. On the other hand, two things: One: These lions take a great deal of pressure off wild lions, of which there are not enough. Two: I don't like the thought of eliminating the captive reared (is "collections" the word?), or legislating it to the point where it is impossible. This is because it seems to me a little late to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak. There may be as many as 8,000 captive-reared lions in South Africa, largely supporting this industry, and if the taking of them is stopped they will vanish. I agree that it seems impractical to release them into the wild--but it seems a waste to lose that huge resource and gene pool. Maybe in time the breeders can figure out how to habituate them to game so they can survive in the wild?

"This is a touchy subject..."

Boy you aren't kidding. I have entertained myself discussing this issue on several facebook sites populated by "anti-hunters". The sad thing is, after the arguing has run its course, many of these people (not all of course) would rather see the species go extinct then to allow this to continue.

Myself I would like to see anything happen that precludes an extinction event (you can always change there circumstance later).

Lion conservation is difficult. These guys are big, they can and do eat people, and generally speaking those that want them conserved don't want them in there backyard. What many don't know is that it wasn't all that long ago (maybe 1000 to 2000 years) lions roamed Europe, try and reintroduce them today.

Kenya has been hit the hardest with lion poaching. Hunting has helped lions in other countries but it isn't a panacea. It has also hurt when quotas are set too high or lions under 4 are shot.

John

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

I appreciate there's a good argument for increasing/adding to the gene pool but that could be done with artificial insemenation from existing stocks held elsewhere and by using AI, you don't affect the aforementioned pride dynamics etc in the way a release of animals would do.

QU1: How do you successfully artificially inseminate a wild lioness??

QU2: If you release a farm-raised lion (or lioneses - spelling??) into the wild, where there is a low population density.... would there not be a good chance of them assimilating and surviving ... given time and adequate space?

Does anyone know of any REAL studies on this (releasing captive bred lions)... REAL as in not touchy-feely greenie-funded psuedo research.

2th doc

Are you saying blackbuck have been returned from Texas to India? I would have trouble believing that.

It seems Texas doesn't even want to conserve blackbuck, axis, etc. Am I correct that they are not considered game animals, with no assigned season for hunting them? (I could be behind since it has been nearly fifteen years since I've hunted Texas.)

To me, the only realistic way to manage our lions is for Governments/GDs/hunting companies etc to run proper programmes with appropriate penalties and only hunt the appropriate lions. (Whenever possible (I do appreciate that sometimes an inappropriate animal just has to be shot)).

A few years ago, TGTS commissioned a report from most, if not all of the leading experts in the field. I haven't seen the entire report but have seen parts of it, and from what I've seen, it's simply brilliant....... I guess it must have cost a fortune to get done and I get the impression they (quite rightly IMO) prefer to keep the Lion's share of their investment reasonably private. I believe they've adopted most if not all of the recommendations and there's no doubt it's worked for them.

Matt,

I don't know of any real studies on the release of captive bred lions having been done but I would think it's reasonably certain that if there's other Lions in the area, it's gonna cause big problems with pride dynamics of the existing populations. I'd have thought that BwanaMich would be the best man to comment on that and indeed other aspects of this subject.

I'd have thought they wouldn't have any trouble adapting to the environment and becoming self sustaining though. They are after all, cats and all cats have the predatory instinct in spades. FWIW, there has been at least one similar project for Tigers in SA and they adapted to hunting for themselves in fairly short order and without any major problems.

As for releasing them into areas that are devoid of other Lion populations. I reckon that'd work, but in reality, such areas are few and far between. Most areas that don't have 'em, don't want 'em.

How is Ganyana's doing with his hunting companions????

Here is some great lion info...
http://www.conservationforce.org/lionconservation.htm

quote:

Originally posted by craig boddington:
This is a very touchy subject, and I seem to get spanked every time I post on one! At this time I agree there isn't much chance of releasing the pen-reared lions into the wild. Also, I have absolutely no interest in hunting a lion in such a manner. BUT I don't have a problem with those who do; I had my chances in the 70s and 80s, when a lion was a fairly normal part of a safari bag, and prices were a fraction of what they are today. I have a huge problem with the operators selling these hunts as "wild lions" (which is actually against South African law), but you see it done at every hunting convention. That's bullshit. On the other hand, two things: One: These lions take a great deal of pressure off wild lions, of which there are not enough. Two: I don't like the thought of eliminating the captive reared (is "collections" the word?), or legislating it to the point where it is impossible. This is because it seems to me a little late to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak. There may be as many as 8,000 captive-reared lions in South Africa, largely supporting this industry, and if the taking of them is stopped they will vanish. I agree that it seems impractical to release them into the wild--but it seems a waste to lose that huge resource and gene pool. Maybe in time the breeders can figure out how to habituate them to game so they can survive in the wild?

See -- nobody even tried to spank you!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Back in the late 60's early 70's I read all types of hoopla over raising African plains game on fenced ranches in Texas. How it would lead to the runination of the "African safari experience",etc., etc.
Today 30-40 years later many of those Texas born animals are used to replenish native born wildlife...India blackbuck antelope comes first to mind I'm certain there are others.
The same principles will work in areas devoid of native born lions an to think it wouldn't is folly at best. ** note the word devoid**
I can think of no better or nobler use for over age captive lions than to aide in funding any type of reintroduction program thru finding people willing to purchase them for shooting.

just out of curiosity, did you eat the canned lion you shot? - just asking after reading your tag line.

jdollar yes I did have some of it. The staff skewered it on a stick like a shish ka bob sprinkled it with a spicy rub and roasted over the coals of the campfire. I was pleasantly surprised to find it tasted much like the cougar I killed in Idaho a few years back.
Thanks for asking.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
....As for releasing them into areas that are devoid of other Lion populations. I reckon that'd work, but in reality, such areas are few and far between. Most areas that don't have 'em, don't want 'em.

At the rate the wild populations are going it isn't unrealistic to see a future where even in areas even where the wild lions are wanted there won't be enough to sustain the population...THAT's when and where the captive breeding population if allowed to be banished will be sorely missed.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

At the rate the wild populations are going it isn't unrealistic to see a future where even in areas even where the wild lions are wanted there won't be enough to sustain the population...THAT's when and where the captive breeding population if allowed to be banished will be sorely missed.

When & if that time ever arrives, the captive bred populations will be looooong dead.

Fortunately, the zoological world has more than ample supplies to ensure a good supply for artificial insemination should that situation ever arise, and AI will also ensure no damage to the pride dynamics that releasing captive bred Lions would do.

The current stock of captive bred Lions, like their breeders have absolutely no place whatsoever in the conservation of the species........ and (IMO) the best thing one could do with both, is to put them down ASAP.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
At the rate the wild populations are going it isn't unrealistic to see a future where even in areas even where the wild lions are wanted there won't be enough to sustain the population...THAT's when and where the captive breeding population if allowed to be banished will be sorely missed.

My view precisely -- but, only time will tell.

I know that this approach returned Timber Wolves to the wild in North America (talk about a complex social structure!), but cats might well be another matter. On the other hand, even domestic cats become feral almost overnight, so anything's possible.

OHGH

You misquoted me........ it was 2th that said that, not me.

Steve no personal attack meant by this but everyone knows you're stance on captive lions/breeding/hunting you are welcome to your opinion. But to think the topic is one sided (yours) is ... well, bluntly it is ignorant.
You'll never change the minds of some an only alienate the others.

If you destroy the 7000+- lions living in captivity then you destroy 20% of the total lion population. That is a big decision and should be based on science, not emotion.

2th & John,

I think you've got me slightly wrong on this.

I freely admit I'm no great fan of canned hunting.......in fact, I detest it and believe it's a complete travesty of hunting and all it stands for, BUT, that doesn't actually matter for the purpose of this discussion.

What we're talking about here, is what to do with the Lions that will be surplus if and when the ban on hunting of captive bred Lions kicks in, and frankly I have my doubts it will.

Of course ideally, they could be reintroduced into the wild, but the facts are that if you do that in areas where Lions already occur, it'll almost certainly result in the deaths of considerably more than are released because of the pride dynamics situation.

Regarding areas that are devoid of Lions but have sufficient PG populations to maintain a Lion population, most, if not all of these areas either don't want them or they're unsuitable for other reasons such as nearby human populations/human encroachment etc.

As to looking to a possible future where Lions are in shorter supply than they are now etc. Obviously no-one has a crystal ball, but guys, the possibility of that happening are almost certainly some decades, probably considerable decades away and these captive bred Lions will be long dead by the time that possibility might and I stress the word might, occur.

Then factor in the fact that Lions actually breed like rabbits, so much so that not even zoos are usually willing to take additional stock and also that in this 21st century, there's already a very large stock of Lion sperm & DNA and that Lion artificial inseminaton is relatively easy, what possible PRACTICAL advantage is there in keeping them alive. At the very least, it'll cost a great deal of money that could be better directed to far more important conservation projects and at the very worst, by keeping them alive, some could be used for a revived black market canned hunting operation.

Therefore as I see it, there's no real PRACTICAL advantage in not simply putting them down in a humane manner.

Of course, if anyone has any other PRACTICAL solutions as to how they might be used to help hunting and/or conservation, I'd love to discuss the matter further. As I see it though, there are no other really PRACTICAL options.

As John says, the decision should be based on science and not on emotion, and I believe that's exactly what I'm doing.

Frankly, my own hunting days are becoming limited now due to a variety of reasons but I've spent almost 30 years enjoying the wilderness and I'd like to think that these possibilities will still be there long after I'm gone, and I'll care passionately about that until my dying day.

The hell of it is I cannot argue with Shakari's logic. I hate the thought of it, but I can't argue. Now, if the "collection" of these lions continues in some fashion, then my other argument about the pressure they remove from wild lions remains. Also, as costly as "real" lion safaris are, these "whatevers" do help keep the costs down.

Craig,

I agree that keeping them would make Lions less expensive but it wouldn't make it proper hunting. Of the two options, I'd prefer prices to stay high, Lions to stay wild and hunters to retain their integrity.

Just to be clear if I can't afford sustainable wild lion then I won't shoot one. And maybe that means no lion in my lifetime and I am okay with that.

As with all wildlife the real problem is habitat.

The parks are not large enough by themselves to maintain the lion populations. They need territory outside. While parks are (mostly) sacrosanct the border areas are becoming more populated. And most of these people do not view lions as anything other than pests.

Keep a pride or two around for the photo tourists at the tribal lodge and poison the rest so they don’t eat your goats and cattle.

Kenya is a great example for this. They outlawed hunting so the lands that bordered the parks became worthless overnight as wildlife areas. The result, cattle ranching moves in. Lions are a pest and are routinely poisoned (even though it is against the law).

End result… no lions.

This is one area where hunting makes a huge impact so long as lions are taken in sustainable numbers. The money we bring ensures that the areas bordering parks continue to be wild. Providing wildlife habitat on a long term sustainable basis.

My vote is we use the lions in SA to reintroduce them to there historic ranges. Release 7000 lions in Europe and let’s see how those British anti hunters squeal.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Just to be clear if I can't afford sustainable wild lion then I won't shoot one. And maybe that means no lion in my lifetime and I am okay with that.

As with all wildlife the real problem is habitat.

The parks are not large enough by themselves to maintain the lion populations. They need territory outside. While parks are (mostly) sacrosanct the border areas are becoming more populated. And most of these people do not view lions as anything other than pests.

Keep a pride or two around for the photo tourists at the tribal lodge and poison the rest so they don’t eat your goats and cattle.

Kenya is a great example for this. They outlawed hunting so the lands that bordered the parks became worthless overnight as wildlife areas. The result, cattle ranching moves in. Lions are a pest and are routinely poisoned (even though it is against the law).

End result… no lions.

This is one area where hunting makes a huge impact so long as lions are taken in sustainable numbers. The money we bring ensures that the areas bordering parks continue to be wild. Providing wildlife habitat on a long term sustainable basis.

My vote is we use the lions in SA to reintroduce them to there historic ranges. Release 7000 lions in Europe and let’s see how those British anti hunters squeal.

John,

I;m glad you see my point.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
2th doc

Are you saying blackbuck have been returned from Texas to India? I would have trouble believing that.

I don't know if he's saying it, but yes that is the case!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Craig,

I agree that keeping them would make Lions less expensive but it wouldn't make it proper hunting. Of the two options, I'd prefer prices to stay high, Lions to stay wild and hunters to retain their integrity.

That's pretty much my thoughts summed up to a T. Canned lion hunting is a very large and noticable black eye to our sport!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Just to be clear if I can't afford sustainable wild lion then I won't shoot one. And maybe that means no lion in my lifetime and I am okay with that.

As with all wildlife the real problem is habitat.

...and then John summed up the rest of my thoughts on this. I'll have to make due without a tiger because I missed the boat on that one and a black rhino because I don't want to pay the price. Others can make due without a lion if they can't pay to play! I think I'm going to find myself in a few years in the position to financially afford a wild lion hunt. I just pray they'll be available to hunt!

Brett

Regardless of our thoughts on this issue we should ALL be supporting John Jackson and Conservation Force!!!!

Brett