testing light for caliber big bore bullets for leopard; more results to follow

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Indlovu:
I am planning such a safari, and looking into one or even 2 rifles, but with the proviso that each must be able to substitute for the other.
I considered the folowing big bores, which I have;
1.375 H&H with 300 gr swift A Frame for buff, and either barnes 210 X or speer hot core 235 gr
2. 404 jeffrey with 300 gr Hawk bulets @2700 fps
3.458 Lott with Hornady 350 gr @2700 plus 500 gr A-Frames/solids
4.9.3x62 with soft 245 gr and 286 grain bullets respectively
the present test was confined to the 375 bulets, since the recently rechambered 458 lott failed to feed, and the 9.3 failed to fire ( bad firing pin) Results of other calibers/bullets will follow
METHODS:
The tests were conducted at my range - er-driveway in northern wisconsin. See below the venue


Shoting was performed at 25 yards; i compared 375 speer 235 gr hot cor @2960 fps with Barnes 210 gr X @ 3050fps. Later an ultra high velocity 7mm ultra load (barnes MRX 140 gr @3510 fps) was also tested.
Target was a mature, well developed Wisconsin pumpkin; with a backstop of 12"rotten punky wood; and behind this a fresh cut 16 inch block of hard wood.
See below bullets tested: from right, 375 with speer 235 gr ; 375 with barnes 210 gr ; 458 Lott with 350 gr; and .423 Hawk 300gr


RESULTS:
375 210 gr barnes, note entry and exit holes in pumpkin; suggesting rapid expansion.



barnes 210 then penetrated 8 inch punk wood, veered inferiorly into the ground; did not hit final 18 inch wood backstop
inch backstop

375 235 gr made a bigger exit hole through pumpkin; it completely smashed the 8" thick wood block to pieces, and penetrated 1.5" into 18 inch final backstop



Next, I lined up all 4 pumpkins i a row and fired a 7mm 140 gr MRX @ 3510 fps.

Bullet penetrated all 4 pumpkins but veered 4" to the right.note exit holes in all 4; penetrated hardwood bckstop 1"



next, 375 210 gr barnes@ 3050 was fired through all 4 pumpkins; penetrated 3, then vered off and was lost

Finally, 210 gr barnes and 235 speer were fired at 4"x6" pine chunk, with hardwood backstop.

barnes 210 penetrated thru 6"pinewood, no expansion, buried in backstop

235 gr speer completely smashed 4" pine block, did not penetrate backstop significantly. note smashed 3 pieces of pine

CONCLUSION
IN 375, 235 SPEER HOT CORE EXPANDS MORE VIOLENTLY THAN BARNES 210 GR AT A SLIGHTLY HIGHER VELOCITY. PENETRATION IS SUFFICIENT FOR SIDE WAYS SHOT AT LEOPARD

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Indlovu,

There really is no need for a lighter, faster bullet for leopard. If you take 2 rifle loaded with expanding bullets capable of taking on your buffalo you are all set. For instance the 300 gr SAF from your 375 straight through the shouders of your leopard will pile him up at the bottom of the tree quite neatly. Also having seperate loads for specific game increases the chance of mixing up you ammo and requires resighting for differnt loads. Finally if you decide to take a light for caliber bullet such as the Speer or Hornadys you mentioned I can almost guarantee an unnecessarily large exit wound

I've shot leopard with 3 different calibers and the leopard that could not even get out of tree after the shot was hit with a 300 gr TBBC at a moderate 2400 FPS from a 375.

Mark

Looks like fun - but I don't know if there's much demand for a light-for-caliber pumpkin, punk wood, pine chunk, hardwood bullet.

I agree with Mark, there is no need to have light for calibre bullets at high velocity. The potential mixing of ammo and different zero point are a recipe for disaster.

I have seen leopard shot with everything from a 7mm mag to a .416 rem and those that were shot correctly with the .338/.375/416 all reacted no differently to those shot with the super magnums.Your .375 A frame 300gr will do the job just as well as any other calibre provided you put it in the right place. It is all about placement

I have killed two leopards with a .300 win.. Both were shot using the retired 185 grain failsafe loads. One travelled 20 feet and the other two feet. Both only travelled in vertical directions due to the forces of gravity. Neither new what hit them. One had an exit wound less than 1 inch in diameter and the second had an exit wound around 1.5 inches in diameter.

But what if not shot correctly? Shit happens, you know. Im sure even a 243 through the heart/lung will pile him up within a few yards; BUT what if he moves; or the hunter flinches? Is an insurance policy wise? Thats my point.
Besides, blowing up pumpkins is a lot of fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
I agree with Mark, there is no need to have light for calibre bullets at high velocity. The potential mixing of ammo and different zero point are a recipe for disaster.

I have seen leopard shot with everything from a 7mm mag to a .416 rem and those that were shot correctly with the .338/.375/416 all reacted no differently to those shot with the super magnums.Your .375 A frame 300gr will do the job just as well as any other calibre provided you put it in the right place. It is all about placement

well we know for sure that it puts big hole in pumpkins and rotten wood. Should work on leopard but not so sure about buffalo.

With my 458 Lott I put a Hornady bullet thru 6" of OAK with a SP.

You have to practice and keep your confidence up. All the gunpowder and high priced bullets in the world won't save anybody's ass if they can't put the bullet in the right place. Don't worry about what if so much. Just do it how you know you can do it.

jro45

Indlovu was referring to using the 350 Hornady on leopard in the Lott. I personally have seen them come apart on caribou at 458 WM velocities so I can only imagine the exit wound on a leopard. The 500 in my limited experience works well on soft skinned game.

Mark

Indlovu,

Your proposed idea for taking 2 rifles, 4 scopes and four loads makes perfect sense here in cyberspace but I guarantee when your PH sees your rig and you explain what you have in mind a tiny bit of sweat will form on his forehead. Shoot all the pumpkins you like. Fooling with differnt bullets is loads of fun but when you hunt your leop/buff take one load for each rifle. Keep it simple and you'll have more fun on your safari.

Mark

Mr. Young deffinately makes a valid point. However each year I go I take the same two rifles with 3 different loads. Softs and solids for my .458 and a controlled expansion soft for my .300. I have never experienced bullet or rifle confusion. There have probably been times when I could have used a different bullet and the sable would have only ran 30 yards instead of 40. If you have the time you can find different bullets that patern very much alike. There maybe a 3/4 inch pattern shift when you shoot one compared to another but if you are a qualified shooter that is the difference between whether you hit him in the left ventricle or the Aortic arch. Either way the poor bastard goes in the salt and if using a special bullet will increase your confidence while sitting in the leopard blind I say go for it. There is a lot to be said for confidence in this game.
But in all honesty if you want the do all gun and bullet, take a .375 with sledgehammers and be certian of what stands behind your target. I guarantee if you loose an animal with that, no matter how big or small, the failure was on the part of the shooter.

Indlovu,

May I suggest you keep it simple? Either the .375 with 300gr or the .404 with 400gr bullets. Soft points for the leopard, solids for the buff, though for your initial shot on this a soft might be preferable (frontal chest or side-on shoulder shot) and follow up shots with solids.

If you are hunting in areas where dense cover occurs, such as the jesse in the Zambezi valley, Zimbabwe, it's a good plan to have the scope quick detachable in case you do a follow up of a wounded animal into very thick brush.

Good Hunting!
Richard.

Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant. (Available from Rowland Ward Publications and Safari Press)

quote:

There really is no need for a lighter, faster bullet for leopard. If you take 2 rifle loaded with expanding bullets capable of taking on your buffalo you are all set. For instance the 300 gr SAF from your 375 straight through the shouders of your leopard will pile him up at the bottom of the tree quite neatly. Also having seperate loads for specific game increases the chance of mixing up you ammo and requires resighting for differnt loads. Finally if you decide to take a light for caliber bullet such as the Speer or Hornadys you mentioned I can almost guarantee an unnecessarily large exit wound

I agree 100% with Mark, Richard and the rest. Stick to one quality soft and a good solid. My last leopard (a stock killer cat) was shot at less than 10 paces with a SOLID Woodleigh 286gr out of my 9.3x64, and she just piled up. Shot went through the heart, which just reconfirms there is nothing that beats shot placement.

I am looking at a leopard/buff hunt and would be very happy using my Sako 375 with 300 TSX and Banded Solids. While bullet weights can be mixed it's not the best idea for most people.

Larger caliber is not a substitute for poor shot placement.

It might help a little though.

One rifle and one bullet will do for both. Keep a few solids handy for the buff and just use a premium soft for the rest.

What a great time for pumpkin popping with Halloween just around the corner. Maybe someone could "shoot" a jack o lantern on a pumpkin for everyone to see?

One gun == one soft load and one solid load.

Larry Sellers

Of course, all of you gents discuss his ballistic testing....while I, on the other hand, am very impressed with his shooting range/driveway! I think blasting pumpkins would be great fun with the big caliber stuff....but agree that mixing various weights can be a troublemaker. I am going thru the same situation as I am hunting buff/leopard in '08 and want one soft for PG/leopard/buff and then a solid for buff, if needed.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Richard Harland: Amen.

Thanks everyone for good, common-sense advice. i think I will take Richards and many others advice, and take my 404 with softs and solids.

Hmm, that brings a thought to mind: maybe the A-Frame, TSX and NF bullets need to be tested on charging pumpkins?

I have to say, I like Elmer Keiths statement "I dont use too much gun because the animals dont get too dead!"

indlovu,

The 404 with a good light gathering scope would serve you well.

Mark

Mark, I'm glad to hear you say that because I'm taking my 404 Jeff with A-Frames/NF softs and Woodleigh/NF solids.....whichever combo shoots the best. Now...if Allister can find me that buff and leopard .

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:
Thanks everyone for good, common-sense advice. i think I will take Richards and many others advice, and take my 404 with softs and solids.

Hmm, that brings a thought to mind: maybe the A-Frame, TSX and NF bullets need to be tested on charging pumpkins?

I have to say, I like Elmer Keiths statement "I dont use too much gun because the animals dont get too dead!"

Indlovu:

I'm working up loads for my 404 also. When I find my "sweet spot" I'll PM what that is. Hope you'll do the same.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Gary,

There will be no problem. Just shoot well!

Mark

Is there something a 300 gr (choice of soft or solid) 375 H&H DOESN'T work on?
Actually, my leopard ran about 70 yds after a good hit with a 300 gr A-frame. But he was stone cold dead when we fell over him!!

Indlovu,

You absolutely have to practice on the charging pumpkins. One rolled along the ground at 60mph (initial leopard attack), one coming through the air at five yards (leopard about to start chewing someone) and one dropping on top of you (your PH up a tree shitting himself as the leopard chews his client).

Second practice: an armoured, turbo charged truckload of pumpkins coming at 50mph, ten yards away, to simulate attack by buffalo bull carrying lead.

A herd of angry cow elephants? Many more pumkins, please!

Richard.

Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant (Available from Rowland Ward Publications and Safari Press).

If your in Africa and hunting dangerous game then I would suggest using the same rifle and ammo for your leopard..A .375 or 416 Rem is a fantastic Leopard gun, so is a 30-06 with a good 180 gr. Nosler for instance.

If your hunting pumpkins, I always liked a double as pumpkins live in rows so you have a barrel for each row. I like those big exit holes btw.

Well, I had to continue the pumpkin chronicles, as promised. I tested Norma 9.3x62 286 gr factory loads; 404 jeffrey, with 300 gr hawk @2750 fps; 347 gr Woodleigh; and 350 grain Barnes X on some more post-Halloween Wisconsin pumpkins.

from left: 9.3x62, 300 gr hawk, 347 gr woodleigh, 400 gr wodleigh solid, 350 gr barnes, and loaded 404 rounds with 300 gr hawk & barnes

The 9.3x62 produced a larger exit hole than the 300 gr hawk in 432; it also penetrated four 12" stumps of punk wood
the 300 gr hawk penetrated 3 stumps, lodged in the fourth
The 347 gr woodleigh was almost too good; it devastated 3 stumps after passing through 2 pumpkins


left: exit hole, 9.3x62; right, 300 gr hawk


Above: 347 gr Woodleigh @ 2550 in .423

Clearly, any of the 3 will do, the 347 gr woodleigh may be too much of a good thing. the penetrtion of the norma 9.3x62 was impressive probably due to its lower velocity and bonded oryx bullets

john, just for you I DID practise on charging pumpkins, using 12 ga hollow point slugs and #3 buck (about SSG size)




Left, #3 buck, right HP slug

For the truck full of pumpkins, I plan to charge my 2 5/8 inch BP cannon with a quarter pound of F powder and a soda can full of ball bearings!

quote:

Originally posted by Harland:
Indlovu,

You absolutely have to practice on the charging pumpkins. One rolled along the ground at 60mph (initial leopard attack), one coming through the air at five yards (leopard about to start chewing someone) and one dropping on top of you (your PH up a tree shitting himself as the leopard chews his client).

Second practice: an armoured, turbo charged truckload of pumpkins coming at 50mph, ten yards away, to simulate attack by buffalo bull carrying lead.

A herd of angry cow elephants? Many more pumkins, please!

Richard.

Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant (Available from Rowland Ward Publications and Safari Press).