quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
TV programmes are fiction.

So far on this thread, I have not seen anything yet that have convinced me of where the actualy problem started.

[quote]where the actualy problem started.[/quote________

It would appear to be at the point of Ownership handover and with all of the uncertainties and confusions that usually accompany such a move.

It would appear the problem started either here:

quote:

I had SERIOUS PH problems. Wanted to road hunt and shoot from the truck. I refused. He started lying to me about the buff on day one. It went from "we have herds, large herds on the concession" , to on day 5 of the 10 day hunt the PH says " I'm not sure you will get a buff let alone two ". It turns out he knew all along the buff had moved on. Instead of moving to where the buff were the PH wanted to ride around on the truck all week and look at elephants and take 3 hour lunches because it was too hot to hunt.

or here:

quote:

...the PH was taking instructions/Money from a rival booking agent to not deliver the goods and that similar instructions had been given out previously.

Neither of those things seem related to confusion about ownership.





In any event, I hope the company can rectify the situation with JJ, and make allowances for the less than optimal experience that kudude had.

Saeed

You would not have any serious problems on any of your safaris because you ARE a VIP client.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It would appear the problem started either here:

quote:

I had SERIOUS PH problems. Wanted to road hunt and shoot from the truck. I refused. He started lying to me about the buff on day one. It went from "we have herds, large herds on the concession" , to on day 5 of the 10 day hunt the PH says " I'm not sure you will get a buff let alone two ". It turns out he knew all along the buff had moved on. Instead of moving to where the buff were the PH wanted to ride around on the truck all week and look at elephants and take 3 hour lunches because it was too hot to hunt.

or here:

quote:

...the PH was taking instructions/Money from a rival booking agent to not deliver the goods and that similar instructions had been given out previously.

Neither of those things seem related to confusion about ownership.





In any event, I hope the company can rectify the situation with JJ, and make allowances for the less than optimal experience that kudude had.

I agree with 500, and I am still not comfortable with the "other side of the story". The initial response (and the one still standing) is that the hunt was misrepresented by the agent, compounded by the client who left too early and did not get along with the ph (who I assume now works for the "new ownership" and thus compelled to follow his directions. Also thought the reference to alcohol was in poor taste. Things just dont add up. Looking forward to JJ's return.

The only thing I can go off is that the original poster gave a first hand report of the situation as he was there. Both Agents gave 2nd-3rd hand reports. I for one am skeptical of the validity of what anyone that works for Adam would report to Adam on this. Anyone that might fear reprisal is not reliable in my book. I can readily admit, I don't know enough to make a good guess at what transpired, but I do know that the original posters story seems way more plausible than the easy out that Adam took stating that the client drank a lot and didn't want to track. Just too easy of an out to say he wasn't a "real" hunter.

My question is, how common is it for Outfitters/PH's to sand bag one client in lieu of another that will be comming? I would think quite often.

The thing is, we have one first hand account that seems reasonable and a 2nd hand account that came from a party that was relayed to Adam from an "employee" of his who stands to possibly lose on this whole deal if the story told Adam isn't the one Adam want's to hear. I mean, what would we expect him to say? "Yep, I didn't bother to get off the truck?"

Either way, in the future, I'd stay clear of both Agents.

LHowell:
The incorrect statement in the site was brought to the attention of the Outfitter. The response was, minor detail, ignore it.
mickey:
Thanks for the well thought response. I'm sure it took you a couple hours to compose it.

I agree with Saeed's post above.

quote:

The incorrect statement in the site was brought to the attention of the Outfitter. The response was, minor detail, ignore it.
mickey:
Thanks for the well thought response. I'm sure it took you a couple hours to compose it.

_______________

TJ,

Are you personally, or on any level or in any manner, involved in the hunting/outdoors agent/outfitters business? Or, are you just a John Q. Citizen in that regard?

To an outside observer, Adam comes across as being more defensive (rightly or wrongly) than either JJ or Wendell. Adam also initially appeared to not want to call JJ directly to sort things out, preferring to have JJ call him.

Seems also that I recall Adam getting into a bit of a scramble on another thread on this forum when he tried to offer a questionable hunt, without checking the legality and details of the hunt with the offering party. From what I remember, Adam didn't do his due diligenge and mis-repesented a hunt (hint: People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones). Here is the link to that thread:
Anyone for a bargin Buffalo and/or elephant?

Further, preferential client treatment and "reserving" prime areas or specific animals for VIP-type clients has been know to happen (I have heard of this from people while at the SCI Convention), so while the hypothesis against Adam may be invalid, it is something to watch out for.

Aside from that, it is too preliminary to tell who the biggest liar is at this point. Seems we need more input from the various parties.

How this problem is handled may tell yet another thing or two about this situation.

Just read that lengthy link on the previous problem with hunts offered. Not sure what to think until we all see how this mess turns out.

The other problem seemed to drag on for a long time.

beetle:
I'm just John Q. Citizen. I make no money from any business in Africa or any where else. I'm an Airplane mechanic.
It just irritates me when someone advertises hunts using false information. Why not just use the truth?
Here's my take on it. You lie in your advertisement, no matter how small, I don't care if your name is god, your done. I'll go some where else.
Another name on my RED list.

Understood. Thanks.

DB

Guests

Life is not easy at the best of times, before we take someone to the cleaners lets just pause and consider the situation in the light of day //

WE generally all try to put our best foot forward but occasionally we might slip, I feel we should not rush to judge one of our guests on one perceived under discussion missdemeaner or indiscretion until we are 100% sure on the full facts.

Peter

I also think we should note that in JJ’s original post, all appears to have been cleared out, and a main point of his post is to give credit to Wendell and Mr. Abdulla for their way of handling his complaints.

Just a point, since some have suggested that an unfinished affair should not be brought to an open forum...

By the way, if so, why should JJ bother to contacted Adam when he came back as he thought that all was sorted out and ended well?

It might be more in this that meets the eye, but since this was how I did read it, I wanted to point it out.

I talked to Wendell extensively about this hunt earlier this year. We discussed the differences in Lobo and Lolkisali and that the buffalo are water dependent in the later. We talked about the best time to go based on water and where the buffalo would be. No way Wendell misrepresented this hunt to JJ or anyone else. He is honest and straight-forward as his responses here show. Anyone who has hunted Africa much can read this thread and smell the shit and it isn't coming from Wendell.

During my research last year, I had the same conversations with Wendell. If my notes are correct, I concur with David W. I chose an alternate to Bundu based on what Wendell told me because of my needs (dates and type of hunting). Wendell's honesty cost him a commission as I had to book with someone else.

I have nothing to do with this situation and really none of my business...but i guess I too as a bystander like others am dragging myself into this!

It seems to me that the situation and allegations have been blown out of proportion. It appears that some want to accuse and jump on Adam when they perhaps don't even know him. I have known Adam for many years and can say that I know for a fact that he cares about taking care of clients and making sure they are happy and have a good safari. He knows that his future depends on this. He goes out of his way for clients and is among the most fair and honest people in this business!

It's too bad this was all brought down to this 'bashing'. I hope and trust this will all be squared away and the client in this hunt taken care of.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I find this situation very sad.

Many of us have jumped to conclusion without the benefit of knowing all the facts.

A problem occured between a client and his PH. And each of them tells a completely different story. In a sense blaming each other.

As far as I am concerned one of them is lying through his nose.

Which one is it?

I have been working with Adam for several years. His service and support have always been excellent. He researches the outfits he recommends extensively. A good friend of mine just returned from Lolkisale. He was there in early July. He and his family had a wonderful experience and saw plenty of Buffalo, including a few in the mid-40's+ range and within easy rifle range, but he was bowhunting. On a Bongo hunt, I did have an issue with an outfitter and Adam looked into the facts and resolved the situation immediately and in a highly professional manner. I have multiple hunts booked with Adam and will continue to work with him as he is honest, fair and highly committed to providing his clients with the best hunts possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Marterius:


Just a point, since some have suggested that an unfinished affair should not be brought to an open forum...

Couldn't that be useful in resolving the situation? Sometimes a recalcitrant party needs a little public prodding.

Accurrate Reloading members and Saeed.

This has gotten way beyond a PH and a client.
We have a the booking agent, current hunting concession owner/representative, past concession representatives, and anyone who wants to "pile on" with either perceptions,
feelings, or gasoline to make the roasting have more flame.
We need to let the parties that are involved resolve this without continuing the soap opera we have helped grow.
From a personal standpoint I also have known Adam for years both personally and professionally and my experiences have always been ethical and client focused. He does go beyond the required to help clients out and protect his reputation, because as we know that can make you or break you in this business.
Having hunted in Africa for the last 30 plus years (no business affiliation) some differences in what occurred just have to do with how you looked at what he said or they said. It is a rare event that is 100% vs. 0% guilty or innocent. This holds true throughout the world, not just Africa. People will always be people.
I disagree that someone is "lying through his nose". We do not want to jump to jury when this is not a court proceeding.
Robert

It appears that Adam received all his information second hand. The only first hand account is from the original poster whose account is 180 degrees different than the one recounted 2nd hand by Adam. The story Adam is relaying could be 100% false and it would be no reflection on Adam's character. Just like the story given to Wendell could be false and it has no bearing on his character.

This is not about Adam or Wendell being liars, this is about differing accounts between JJ and his PH which would make one of them liars or probably both to some extent.

I for one find the PH's account too predictable. It's way to easy to say the client drank alot and didn't want to walk.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Marterius:


Just a point, since some have suggested that an unfinished affair should not be brought to an open forum...

Couldn't that be useful in resolving the situation? Sometimes a recalcitrant party needs a little public prodding.

Very true, at least in some situations. My point was that in JJ's original post, if taken at face value, there was really nothing unfinished. He belived that he had talked to the owner, Licky Abdulla, who had solved the problem in a decent manner and he wanted to thank him and Wendell (and also Kathi).

Then of course we all - including myself - get the unresistible urge to add to the mess by posting our analysis...

Regards,
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Marterius:
Then of course we all - including myself - get the unresistible urge to add to the mess by posting our analysis...

Regards,
Martin

Martin

I thought the thread wasn't too bad on anyone except the PH. But then the rumours started of other things behind the scenes and they weren't from AR.

Just for future reference (to tie everything together) here is a link to a Response by JJ Miller

Regards,

Terry

Nitro, I agree with you, but we have a tendency to go in to guesses about things we don't know much about... However, these respones are written by gentlemen compared to those on the thread about "The Cartridge That Can Not Be Named"...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I find this situation very sad.

Many of us have jumped to conclusion without the benefit of knowing all the facts.

A problem occured between a client and his PH. And each of them tells a completely different story. In a sense blaming each other.

As far as I am concerned one of them is lying through his nose.

Which one is it?

At this point I have no idea.

Dan, regressing to your playground days as a lonely child will not change the fact you are wrong and aren't man enough to admit it.

You see, I was man enough to admit I may have been wrong although I am not sure I was.................you on the other hand.....

......................JJ

Posted 12 August 2005 14:35 (Marterius)

Posted 09 April 2007 07:11 (500grains)

20 months between posts ??????????? I can't help wondering what we are trying to accomplish here...

I missed this the frst time around and have just quickly scanned the string and I haved concluded one thing. I have less respect for both Wendel and Adam as a result only because I could not fine where either took any responsibility for anything that happened and by God no one and I mean no one is correct 100% of the time. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I missed this the frst time around and have just quickly scanned the string and I haved concluded one thing. I have less respect for both Wendel and Adam as a result only because I could not fine where either took any responsibility for anything that happened and by God no one and I mean no one is correct 100% of the time. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

There was a follow-up report on the replacement hunt that might affect your view, or maybe not.

I think this is the thread.

Charles, interesting how great things are when one kills sooo many head of game in 3 days. I will leave it at that.

Interestingly enough, I believe someone DID discover their motivation!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

At this point I have no idea.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Now I am beginning to understand why Adam wanted to keep you out of the part of the concession that he was hunting.

You know Jeffe I am really starting to wonder about you. You are a moderator here and most of your posts seem to be the kind of posts meant to cause a reaction.

Members squabble about things all the time. A forum is for the exchange of ideas and thoughts. Many times people disagree and it becomes a bit personnal. Why not leave them alone? Instead you continue to instigate reactions and let your personnal feelings get involved.

This thread was DEAD until you brought it back up from the second page to to stir it up again. There hadn't been a post in two days.

Not good form for someone who is supposed to be a Moderater.

Add your actions to Ray's in the 'What is this Crap' thread and a suspicious person would be inclined to think there is something going on to get more people banned.

It would appear, to a suspicious person, that the Sheephunter incident is not yet Dead and those that thought there was something wrong with the deal are being weeded out for there stance.

Just my humble opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
Posted 12 August 2005 14:35 (Marterius)

Posted 09 April 2007 07:11 (500grains)

20 months between posts ??????????? I can't help wondering what we are trying to accomplish here...

Very easy to answer your question.

Just look at who brought that subject up!

500grains has been watching far too many Hollywood movies - where reality takes a back seat to self importance!

I'm just curious why some people here, like Ray, Jeffeosso, and a few others, can seemingly insult members at will, while others are threatened with being banned if they do the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
This thread was DEAD until you brought it back up from the second page to to stir it up again.

Really?

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
Posted 12 August 2005 14:35 (Marterius)

Posted 09 April 2007 07:11 (500grains)

20 months between posts ??????????? I can't help wondering what we are trying to accomplish here...

quote:

Originally posted by mikeh375:
I'm just curious why some people here, like Ray, Jeffeosso, and a few others, can seemingly insult members at will, while others are threatened with being banned if they do the same thing.

Or if they defend themselves.