I would rather watch those videos than to watch some dude making 500 plus yard shots on game, dangerous or not. Shooting at game in Africa at extreme long ranges is a stunt pulled off to feed an ego and has no place on video.

Perry

To Mike/MJines from Marc---

Thanks for the healthy debate. I've never met you but I know from others you're a solid gentleman and an honorable hunter. I respect your opinion. Most of the time I find common ground with you, but I guess not this time. In the end we're both hunters that want the best for our industry-I know that!
=====
Kim: Where ya been buddy? Good post. Put that gun down and pick up your computer bro'. Got your voicemail. Let's catch up.
=====
Aaron: Where you been man? Saw you shoot a big mule deer with David Morris/Tecomate guy. (What's with the long shot?) Hope you can put me closer or else I'll get lotsa nasty emails from guys accusing me of sniping and not hunting. Oh that bubba crowd. Had to cancel our SCI seminar. Hope you got voicemail.
=====
Muletrain & ddrhook: Thanks for adding some laughter. You two remind me of that old Richard Pryor joke. Remember the one with Pryor and other guy standing on a bridge. Other guy says to Pryor, "That water is cold man." Pryor responds, "Yeah, it's deep too."
=====
Mike/LionHunter: Thanks for holding it altogether. Happy Birthday. Didn't know you were the guy to hunt with PC right after the charge. Bet you have some stories.

Looking forwqrd to meeting all you guys in Dallas. I think I'm gonna git there.

I'm outta here for now.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hey Aaron,

I was in hopes you would show up to join the discussion. Please check the Lion from a Truck thread that eventually led up to this one.

Mike - I have seen it for sure. Obviously everyone has batted this one around already. Fact is we see only what happened on the video, nothing more. But that doesn't stop everyone from throwing in their opinion.

Mine is only this. As for a wounded lion, those who claim using a vehicle to try and locate him is wrong? WOW, are you mis-informed! As for feelings on the video, I'm kind of in the middle on this one. I like to see it personally, but wish at the same time that the rest of the public couldn't. Had it actually been on foot, a whole different story. To those that don't understand the necessity of the truck for a wounded lion, it could look really bad. Especially if most of those watching it, don't know the cat was previously wounded!

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

I was pretty much in agreement with the consensus opinion, but as this discussion has progressed it is becoming more elitist and less palatable. "Every dope and his dog has a video camera..."? "Amateurs and the wannabees..."?

I think it is a small percentage of returning hunters that post objectionable videos and photos. Can you blame hunters for wanting to share their experiences? It's all about ego. Moja's got one; Boddington's got one; Shakari, too. It's just that most of us can't afford to edit and produce video like Sable Trails or Safari Classics (or make money on our efforts, sorry to say).

While I almost always agree with you Steve, this sounds like, "step aside you bunch of wankers and leave the spotlight to me and the other 'pros' when it comes to taking the public spotlight. We're the only qualified arbiters of what's appropriate for a video".

Most of the folks on this board are amateurs and wannabees, and many of us have videos taken of our hunts. Not everyone can be a Shakari or a Bwana Moja, so don't blame the amateur or "wannabee" big game hunter who also wants to share their hunting experience on their return. Just because we're not professionals and our video quality is "second rate" doesn't mean we're 'dopes'. Go after the few miscreant video posters, not the rest of us.

Kim, you nailed it.

I have not seen any of Marc's videos, not likely to either. So I cannot comment on the contents.

My original post of "do as I say, not as I do" referred to politically correct notion of what is acceptable for public consumption.

What rubs me the wrong way is the notion that it is OK to produce and make money on videos that are "correct" while denying the same opportunity to promote an otherwise legal and ethical hunt - just because it may be objectionable to the elitist intelligentsia.

Glorifying Cat Charges: STOP

Yeah - Everyone knows those poor little putty-cats wouldn't hurt anyone!

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KPete:

I was pretty much in agreement with the consensus opinion, but as this discussion has progressed it is becoming more elitist and less palatable. "Every dope and his dog has a video camera..."? "Amateurs and the wannabees..."?

I think it is a small percentage of returning hunters that post objectionable videos and photos. Can you blame hunters for wanting to share their experiences? It's all about ego. Moja's got one; Boddington's got one; Shakari, too. It's just that most of us can't afford to edit and produce video like Sable Trails or Safari Classics (or make money on our efforts, sorry to say).

While I almost always agree with you Steve, this sounds like, "step aside you bunch of wankers and leave the spotlight to me and the other 'pros' when it comes to taking the public spotlight. We're the only qualified arbiters of what's appropriate for a video".

Most of the folks on this board are amateurs and wannabees, and many of us have videos taken of our hunts. Not everyone can be a Shakari or a Bwana Moja, so don't blame the amateur or "wannabee" big game hunter who also wants to share their hunting experience on their return. Just because we're not professionals and our video quality is "second rate" doesn't mean we're 'dopes'. Go after the few miscreant video posters, not the rest of us.


Kim, you nailed it.

I have not seen any of Marc's videos, not likely to either. So I cannot comment on the contents.

My original post of "do as I say, not as I do" referred to politically correct notion of what is acceptable for public consumption.

What rubs me the wrong way is the notion that it is OK to produce and make money on videos that are "correct" while denying the same opportunity to promote an otherwise legal and ethical hunt - just because it may be objectionable to the elitist intelligentsia.

This is the way I see it too.


.

Kim & Jack,

You guys are missing my point completely.

Firstly, I don't even own a video camera and if I have a choice, prefer not to have a cameraman, esp an amateur one along on safari..... If there is one, I make a point of keeping out of shot as much as possible and I don't even know how to post a clip onto You Tube.

I'm so averse to that sort of stuff, we often get approached by various types of media for everything from interviews to documentaries and we routinely turn them ALL down...... and the reason for that is I was tucked up like a kipper many years ago by the London Sunday Times and it ain't ever gonna happen again.

Hell, I even also try to avoid those pics of posing with AKs and other military weapons just in case it might drop me in the shit at some time in the future!

What I'm trying to say is that the really professional hunting DVD makers do a good job and MORE IMPORTANTLY usually know what's appropriate and what isn't.

On the other hand, the amateurs who buy a camera, film someone's hunt, complete with inappropriate, sometimes VERY inappropriate behaviour and then post it onto a site or You Tube for the whole world to see and for the antis to have a hey-day with are to me at least as much of a risk to the future of hunting as the antis themselves are...

BTW, I've never seen any of Marc's DVDs so don't know what they're like but I have seen (I think) all of the Craig Boddington ones and if they were all as good as that, we'd have nothing to worry about.

As it is, when trophy hunting goes to the wall, as (IMO) it sadly, surely but eventually will. I'll bet hunters themselves will be as much to blame for it as the antis will.

Again, I think a few of our friends are missing the original point, or maybe I'm totally in the dark? My take on Marc's point was the over celebrating on video that is placed on International web sites, and that's it. I certainly understand a man either with friends or family doing a jig when he downs a quarry. But to take it to the outer limits and squeal, shimmy-shake, jump into the air and other loud, laughing antics which is akin to making fun of a dead animal, then place THAT part on public video, is just not a good way to portray our sport. It appears that they are making fun of a dead animal more than rejoicing over a good hunt and a successful kill. This has nothing to do with bowing to Anti-hunters, but everything to do with respect for a noble creature. This isn't about filming any charging animal or killing it. Rather appearing as though we're making fun of it. I have seen videos where guys kick the dead animal, say how stupid it was for coming into a feed trough and so on. Some guys appear to be giving gang signs...what's up with that? Again, I think Marc's original point was; let's try and show our hunts in a more respectful way. I'm 1000% pro hunting, and I don't have any problem with using dogs, blinds, bait (where legal) or any ethical devices, but I do not see the point of treating dead animals like they were nothing more than garbage beneath us. Those video moments of disgusting exhibition should be kept away from the eyes of the public. Edit that part out and don't use it in your PUBLIC thread. I want to see those charges; I want to see good marksmanship or quick and efficient follow up shots. Show me your trophies...I love it! I want to hear all about your hunt, every step of the way, and we have some outstanding hunters here who can tell some of the best stories we'll ever read. But please help us educate those who think showing their blood lust gang banger hunts on public video makes them some kind of hero actor from The Hills Have Eyes.
Good hunting to you all,
David

I can understand why people do it and can even understand still pics and don't have a problem with either...... but some things are just better not to have on video and then post them on places where those that don't understand the thing to see.

Frankly, (IMO) high fiving and back slapping etc are the least of the problem.

Kim and Jack,

I forgot to say that you seem offended by my use of the terms "Every dope and his dog has a video camera..."? and "Amateurs and the wannabees..."?

Let me explain.

"Every dope and his dog has a video camera..." - If you doubt that statement, try standing outside an airport terminal for an hour or two. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that they're one of the most popular items of 'tourist jewellery'..... and I'm sure that not all of them can be the sharpest tools in the box.

"Amateurs and the wannabees". - Whether we like it or not, the world, esp Africa has now become the world of the instant expert. Someone hunts Africa (or somewhere else) once, goes home and becomes an instant agent etc.

That same attitude often prevails when it comes to video cameras and that's why we see things on the net such as we're discussing here and sometimes, considerably worse.

FWIW, I don't think it's restricted to cat charges either. I reckon there's all kinds of inappropriate behaviour by hunters on the net that could come back and bite us in the arse.

My opinion on this might not be popular but I think you'll find it's probably not inaccurate.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Let me explain.

"Every dope and his dog has a video camera..." - If you doubt that statement, try standing outside an airport terminal for an hour or two. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that they're one of the most popular items of 'tourist jewellery'..... and I'm sure that not all of them can be the sharpest tools in the box .

"Amateurs and the wannabees". - Whether we like it or not, the world, esp Africa has now become the world of the instant expert. Someone hunts Africa (or somewhere else) once, goes home and becomes an instant agent etc.

Steve:

Not the sharpest tools in the box? It goes without saying that you're describing a fair number of your own clients, right? Do you really figure a person is likely 'sharper' if they aren't so pedestrian as to carry a video camera? Or "make (it) a point of keeping out of (a video) shot as much as possible"? It seems that behind this issue is a measure of contempt for the vanity of those who videotape in the first place. Certainly your prerogative, but a tad judgmental I think.

Maybe I'm taking this all too personally. I have a video camera. I've had videographers accompany our last two safaris. I even know how to post a video to YouTube, though I've never done so personally. I guess it boils down to my being one of those "amateurs and the wannabees" that you seem to look down upon.

Look, I'll be the first to admit, ego plays a part of my hunting: I make it a point to take lots of photos, especially with my trophies; if I can afford it, I like to have the hunt videoed so as to document my pluck and daring; when I return I put together an iBook full of photos and stories so I can besiege friends and family with my heroics; and for good measure I mount the occasional trophy on the wall so people can ask from whence it came and I can recollect the adventure and skill that was required to shoot it. (I've even been known to add a few yards - or subtract them in the case of dangerous game - to blur my amateur status and be more like you).

And then, for good measure, I log onto AR where I can opine along side the lofty likes of Boddington, Charlton, Bwana Moja, Fulson, Shakari, and the other real experts where, in true Walter Middy fashion (and from the concealment of the internet) I can pontificate (as now) as though I was something other than what I am: An amateur and a wannabe.

My point here is that "amateurs and the wannabees" make up 98% of the hunting public - and AR membership. Don't disparage us for aspiring to be like the few professionals that grace this Board. Remember, Hemingway had only one safari under his belt before he wrote "Green Hills of Africa". Ruark had only been on one safari when he wrote "Horn of the Hunter". Just because we amateurs lack experience doesn't mean that we don't have something to say - or to show, in the case of a video.

Kim,

you're still missing my point...... When I say the camera owners can't all be the sharpest tools in the box, I mean people generally, not just hunters...... the point is that the world and his dog owns a video camera nowadays and an awful lot of them put an awful lot of stuff on the net that perhaps might have been better to keep private....... and sure, hunters are no better or worse than anyone else in that regard.

As for your having a cameraman along on your safari, that's your choice and I certainly congratulate you on having the good taste to keep your videos for your remeniscences and of course your own friends and family etc. That's exactly what I think they should be for.

The ones I have a problem with are the inappropriate ones we see all too often.

As for your last para. surely you're not comparing the posting of vids such as people shooting drugged animals or shooting animals that don't appear to be previously injured, from trucks or guys celebrating whilst animals lay there dying but not dead with the work of the likes of Hemingway and Ruark? - I'm sure that wasn't your intent but as I see it, the difference is immense.

Sent you a PM BTW.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Let me explain.

"Every dope and his dog has a video camera..." - If you doubt that statement, try standing outside an airport terminal for an hour or two. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that they're one of the most popular items of 'tourist jewellery'..... and I'm sure that not all of them can be the sharpest tools in the box .

"Amateurs and the wannabees". - Whether we like it or not, the world, esp Africa has now become the world of the instant expert. Someone hunts Africa (or somewhere else) once, goes home and becomes an instant agent etc.

Steve:

Not the sharpest tools in the box? It goes without saying that you're describing a fair number of your own clients, right? Do you really figure a person is likely 'sharper' if they aren't so pedestrian as to carry a video camera? Or "make (it) a point of keeping out of (a video) shot as much as possible? It seems that your beef is a measure of contempt for the vanity of those who videotape in the first place. Certainly your prerogative, but a tad judgmental I think.

Maybe I'm taking this all too personally. I have a video camera. I've had videographers accompany our last two safaris. I even know how to post a video to youTube, though I've never done so personally. I guess it boils down to my being one of those "amateurs and the wannabees" that you seem to look down upon.

Look, I'll be the first to admit, ego plays a part of my hunting: I make it a point to take lots of photos, especially with my trophies; if I can afford it, I like to have the hunt videoed so as to document my pluck and daring; when I return I put together an iBook full of photos and stories so I can besiege friends and family with my heroics; and for good measure I mount the occasional trophy on the wall so people can ask from whence it came and I can recollect the adventure and skill that was required to shoot it. (I've even been known to add a few yards - or subtract them in the case of dangerous game - to blur my amateur status and be more like you).

And then, for good measure, I log onto AR where I can opine along side the lofty likes of Boddington, Charlton, Bwana Moja, Fulson, Shakari, and the other real experts where, in true Walter Middy fashion (and from the concealment of the internet) I can pontificate (as now) as though I was something other than what I am: An amateur and a wannabee.

My point here is that "amateurs and the wannabees" make up 98% of the hunting public - and AR membership. Don't disparage us for aspiring to be like the few professionals that grace this Board. Remember, Hemingway had only one safari under his belt before he wrote "Green Hills of Africa". Ruark had only been on one safari when he wrote "Horn of the Hunter". Just because we amateurs lack experience doesn't mean that we don't have something to say - or to show, in the case of a video.

Safari operators and PHs make their living by inflating& feeding [and feeding off] the egostistical appetite of their Amateur Wannabe clients, who appear to have got the dreamy nostaligic inspiration to hunt African from famous creative writers who were amateur hunters themselves.
I wonder how many of todays wannabe white hunters could give an honest account of a hunt that gives the impression that it involved next to no skill or challenge,.....like this:


[QUOTE] As Roosevelt stands over a freshly shot eland, a native guide approaches with the news of a rhinoceros sighted near by. Roosevelt follows the guide accompanied by Captain Arthur Slatter, an Englishman who runs an ostrich farm and an excellent hunter despite earlier losing his right hand.
"Slatter and I immediately rode in the direction given, following our wild-looking guide; the other gun-bearer trotting after us. In five minutes we had reached the opposite hillcrest, where the watcher stood, and he at once pointed out the rhino. The huge beast was standing in entirely open country, although there were a few scattered trees of no great size at some little distance from him. We left our horses in a dip of the ground and began the approach; I cannot say that we stalked him, for the approach was too easy. The wind blew from him to us, and a rhino's eyesight is dull. Thirty yards from where he stood was a bush four or five feet high, and through the leaves, it shielded us from the vision of his small, piglike eyes as we advanced toward it, stooping and in single file, I leading. The big beast stood like an uncouth statue, his hide black in the sunlight; he seemed what he was, a monster surviving over from the world's past, from the days when the beasts of the prime ran riot in their strength, before man grew so cunning of brain and hand as to master them. So little did he dream of our presence that when we were a hundred yards off he actually lay down."

"On Safari With Theodore Roosevelt, 1909,"
[QUOTE]

I guess I picked the wrong time to bring out Boddington On Lion !!!( December release )
Man am I in trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I guess I picked the wrong time to bring out Boddington On Lion !!!( December release )
Man am I in trouble.

Ah mate, I'm sure it'll sell like hotcakes!

When does it hit Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I guess I picked the wrong time to bring out Boddington On Lion !!!( December release )
Man am I in trouble.

And you deserve whatever you get too!

Seriously though, I somehow doubt that anyone would classify you and Craig as Mark Sullivan wannabes.

Unless, of course, you two are on camera, breathing heavily and saying "I let the LION decides HOW he wants to DIE"

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
BTW, I've never seen any of Marc's DVDs so don't know what they're like but I have seen (I think) all of the Craig Boddington ones and if they were all as good as that, we'd have nothing to worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
I have not seen any of Marc's videos, not likely to either. So I cannot comment on the contents.

Not to get too far off track, but you really owe it to yourselves to pick up a couple of Bwana Moja's videos. The safari locations are first rate; the hunting is always 'fair chase' and ethical; and the production values are, hands down, the best in the business. And each video averages two or more hours (much like Boddington's Safari Classics DVDs).

Moja is something of the 'anti-Sullivan' in that he typically strives for long distance, one-shot kills - rather than 'blood on the boots' double rifle salvos. If you're not familiar with his videos, try out "The Mane Event" and "Back to Africa", two of his best efforts.

[The other producers of videos that belong on every safari hunters shelf are Craig Boddington (Safari Classics), Buzz Charlton (Charlton McCallum Safaris), and Mark Buchanon (Big Bore Productions). Of course, Mark Sullivan is like anchovies on a pizza, you either love 'em or hate 'em.]

I actually don't think I've ever seen Marc's vids on sale over here..... might be wrong though.

Buying online/overseas isn't worth considering because of the postal theft here.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I guess I picked the wrong time to bring out Boddington On Lion !!!( December release )
Man am I in trouble.

Dave:

If it's as good as Boddington on Buffalo and Boddington on Leopard, you should have few fears. It will be a great success. What you do need to worry about is the dwindling list of available animals for Craig's specialized hunting DVDs. Can Boddington on Aardwolf and Boddington on Bandicoot be far off?

Thought you were a better hunter than that mate. Zimbi Books has all my stuff and Dolph sells them at his store in Stellenbosch.

There might be a few discarded along that main highway from JNB airport too.

I don't have any glorified lion charges in them however.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
Thought you were a better hunter than that mate. Zimbi Books has all my stuff and Dolph sells them at his store in Stellenbosch.

There might be a few discarded along that main highway from JNB airport too.

I don't have any glorified lion charges in them however.

Thanks buddy...... I'll get busy.

Don't tell Luan though because he'll snatch 'em before I get a chance to watch 'em!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Safari operators and PHs make their living by inflating& feeding [and feeding off] the egostistical appetite of their Amateur Wannabe clients, who appear to have got the dreamy nostaligic inspiration to hunt African from famous creative writers who were amateur hunters themselves.
I wonder how many of todays wannabe white hunters could give an honest account of a hunt that gives the impression that it involved next to no skill or challenge,.....like this:

[QUOTE] As Roosevelt stands over a freshly shot eland, a native guide approaches with the news of a rhinoceros sighted near by. Roosevelt follows the guide accompanied by Captain Arthur Slatter, an Englishman who runs an ostrich farm and an excellent hunter despite earlier losing his right hand.

"We left our horses in a dip of the ground and began the approach; I cannot say that we stalked him, for the approach was too easy. The wind blew from him to us, and a rhino's eyesight is dull."

Thirty yards from where he stood was a bush four or five feet high, and through the leaves, it shielded us from the vision of his small, piglike eyes as we advanced toward it, stooping and in single file, I leading. The big beast stood like an uncouth statue, his hide black in the sunlight; he seemed what he was, a monster surviving over from the world's past, from the days when the beasts of the prime ran riot in their strength, before man grew so cunning of brain and hand as to master them. So little did he dream of our presence that when we were a hundred yards off he actually lay down.

"On Safari With Theodore Roosevelt, 1909,"

"I wonder how many of todays wannabe white hunters could give an honest account of a hunt that gives the impression that it involved next to no skill or challenge,.....like this: "We left our horses in a dip of the ground and began the approach; I cannot say that we stalked him, for the approach was too easy. The wind blew from him to us, and a rhino's eyesight is dull.""

Hmmm. That's awfully thin gruel, if you ask me. Now had I been there, I'm certain I would have been able to more accurately depict the scene, thus:

"Exhausted and saddle-worn, the mind-numbing fear of our hunting party was unspoken yet palpable, blending with the sweat coursing from our brows and the metallic taste of blood that oozed from our cracked and cruelly parched lips. 'Memento Mori', the admonition whispered to Roman generals facing far less risk, played over and over in my throbbing head. My mortality, and that of the innocents at my side, would soon and again be put in dire jeopardy. In attempting to dismount, we almost fell off of our now famished and beleaguered horses into a deep and cavernous chasm. I was now even more nervous that our near broken and stumbling bodies would betray our collective presence to the horned death only yards away. Summoning all the courage and expertise many years of reading Hemingway and Ruark could muster, our stalk was made easy; not by the elements, and certainly not due to the efforts of the beast, no, but by a guile the genesis of which was spawned by years of studying Accurate Reloading posts. It didn't matter that the tempest of wind, flirting with near hurricane force, was nearly blinding us, the rhino would soon be mine."

Now, wait till you hear about how it charged after taking the first shot!

What a bunch of busy bodies sticking thier noses into other peoples business. Most of yall sound like a bunch of women at the PTA meeting. Don't ever be apologetic to some greeny over another hunters legal antics, whether you agree with them or not. In political cases if you along with anyone else in your group break ranks to sympathize with the enemies complaints you have lost the war. If a greeny doesn't like seeing a cat charge on film then turn up the volume and play it in slow motion for them. Years of compromise with these people will insure that your children's hunting experiences will be strictly on usavory vermin, such as rats, with air rifles only.

"Now, wait till you hear about how it charged after taking the first shot!"
==============================

Oh Geez, don't post it on YouTube!

{But wait, I know you've learned better, spawned by years of studying Accurate Reloading posts.)

So what makes "cat" charges different and what do you want to stop having posted in the public realm next?

So that's going to make everyone feel better?

Guess we all just get "perfectly shot" videos to watch.....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Keep the "moments of glory and moronic ineptitude" for your home movies.

Please tell me of your charges.

.

If I had it on film, I'd show you a serious full-on charge that'd turn your hair white(r). Pity I didn't have any videographers in my living room when it went down. Wives who have just been informed that a another great sum of money has been spent on hunting or fishing gear are an unpredictable and supremely dangerous adversary. It's downright scary, and I mean that. Lion charge? Sheeit.

Times and tastes change. I have seen old archived black and white footage from a BBC documentary of one of the Klineburgers literally jumping up and down on top of a dead elephant, its stomach looking like a trampoline! Even though it was along time ago, it doesn't portray hunters in a good light when the footage is dug up for a "historic" documentary. Actually, I don't believe that there was ever a time when that would have been in good taste. Then there is the famous photo of Ruark and his entire hunting party sitting on top of a dead buffalo (I'm sure I have seen others where he is standing with a boot on the neck of a dead buffalo and/or lion). Most photos are not set up like that now - nNowadays, most photos are taken with the hunter sitting 20yds behind the animal to exaggerate the size and even that is (thankfully) starting to change too. Then there were the Sullivan videos and now copycats on YouTube.

Times change and people just need to think about their actions and the potential consequences. Unfortunately we see to many selfish attitudes from the "I can do what I like and to hell with the lot of you!" crowd. While they may get away with it where no-one else can see, if you post it on you-tube, the whole world can see and most of the time it ain't pretty.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am getting the impression that some of our friends have misunderstood what Mark is trying to say.

I think he is trying to say there are things which are shown on TV and youtube which some of us do find offensive.

Personaly, I find this no different than the Mark Sullivan videos.

I don't like them.

I don't like political correctness.

I am certainly not a bunny hugger.

But, some of the shows do show - to me at least - what seems to be a bunch of utter idiots hi fiving and back slapping and saying things that I have never heard being said at any kill throughtout the years I have hunted.

This subject of shows came up while we were hungting this year.

And without exceptions, every PH and client present stated they desliked these shows.

They do nothing to promote our sport.

I am down with the whole respectful hunting and honesty thing but the bit about the 'unsuccessful' hunter having to self-flagellate because they muffed a shot or something didnt go quite according to plan, in my opinion is wrong.

Here in Australia for example we have had a hunting season denied us (completely and possibly permanently) for a certain species because recreational hunters were honest and could not guarantee the governement that a single killing (CNS) shot would be made on that animal by the hunter. The thought of having a wounded animal of that species was too much liability for the government of the day to bear (in the publics eye) so the season was refused. Similarly other native animals here are not allowed to be hunted by rec hunters for very similar reasons and their management can only be conducted by (supposedly) trained professional contractors. Is this the potential path that hunters around the world really want to go down????

Recreational hunters have varying skill levels, mistakes happen.... shit happens, as they say.... animals are tough and nature is tough on animals. Not all of us are able to make these perfect one-shot kills, every time, in varying conditions. That 'unsuccesful' shot could have happened because the animal moved, even slightly, as the shot was taken - t h a t happens all the time. To keep those facts from the uneducated public is counter-productive. As mentioned before you will never change the opinions or intentions of the loony animal libbers - but the fence sitters we can but they want the facts... not the sugar-coated PC version.

Obviously I am speaking in general terms - not about cats.

I would just like someone to post the list of what is and is not acceptable behavior on and off camera as I've never seen the list.

quote:

Originally posted by gotogirl3:
I would just like someone to post the list of what is and is not acceptable behavior on and off camera as I've never seen the list.

It's a case-by-case kind of thing.

Justice Potter Stewart of the U.S. Supreme Court, in his famous concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio, 378 U.S. 184 (1964), aptly stated the standard (in Jacobellis, Justice Stewart applied the standard to obscenity, but it really does work for everything else, too):

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within [the] shorthand description [of hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case [a fairly risqué French film entitled Les Amants] is not that." [Emphasis added.]

If you are in doubt, feel free to send your hunting film along to Bwana Moja, and he will be the judge.

One is free to subscribe to ones own personal moral standard or be influenced by one of external origin.

1 Corinthians 4:3" But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self."