Frostbit: I appreciate your opinion on this. Below I've cut and pasted what I initially wrote. I'm referring to wounded cat charges ONLY.
================================================
"Watching a hunting client gun down a charging lion doesn't serve as a validation of bravery... High-fiving and yucking-it-up to the camera are idiotic after one of these incidents. The proper thing to do is turn to the camera and say, 'I made a mistake and thankfully it didn't cost me my life."
================================================
No I didn't read your Zambia Hunt Report but I will, and I don't have a problem with your descriptive language that you referenced. It's like the stories we tell at the campfire. I'm cool with that. Look I get it. Hunting is violent, raw, wild and often times bloody. It's the stuff that gets videotaped and posted on YouTube and outfitter's websites regarding wounded cat charges that have become a problem. I'm not trying to tell you how to react after shooting a croc or a kudu. I'm saying we have to police ourselves better in reference to the wounded cat charges that go viral.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
Frostbit: I appreciate your opinion on this. Below I've cut and pasted what I initially wrote. I'm referring to wounded cat charges ONLY.
================================================
"Watching a hunting client gun down a charging lion doesn't serve as a validation of bravery... High-fiving and yucking-it-up to the camera are idiotic after one of these incidents. The proper thing to do is turn to the camera and say, 'I made a mistake and thankfully it didn't cost me my life."
================================================
No I didn't read your Zambia Hunt Report but I will, and I don't have a problem with your descriptive language that you referenced. It's like the stories we tell at the campfire. I'm cool with that. Look I get it. Hunting is violent, raw, wild and often times bloody. It's the stuff that gets videotaped and posted on YouTube and outfitter's websites regarding wounded cat charges that have become a problem. I'm not trying to tell you how to react after shooting a croc or a kudu. I'm saying we have to police ourselves better in reference to the wounded cat charges that go viral.

Fair nuff!!

I plan on cats in the next couple of years. I'll try and not screw the pooch.

Marc, Sincere questions... I have a difficult time watching an "unaware" lion or bear getting shot on TV, just me perhaps but I tend to look away as they jump and bite at the source of the pain, but I don't have a problem at all with a "charge sequence", other than disgust when it is obvious that it is a canned/drugged lion. Maybe because as a hunter I understand what is not being conveyed, whereas the averge viewer would not and is left to speculate. Why is a charge more disturbing to the big wigs you are talking to, then a normal "kill shot"? Or is it the idea that the charges are being enticed, or glorified (when one should be ashamed, in the case of a wounded animal)? Take Peter's lion charge for example, do they find that offensive? I would think not as it is sort of old-school by today's standards, and IIRC Wes did a good job of owning up to his mistake and narrating the sequence. Or is it because they are popular and draw the most attention? Just trying to understand what you think their perspective is.

Have you ever had an animal charge, wounded or otherwise? Again, just for perspective.

What in your opinion are the other two "most powerful weapons" that you make reference of? (feel free to not answer if this should be saved for another discussion!)

I am NOT in favor of provoking animal charges, or glorifying them when they occur and would much prefer a detailed and informative recollection of the incident as you describe. Isn't there a show on TV called "Dangerous Game" where they profile hunting charges? And thinking about it, I recall seeing shows on NatGeo and even Animal Planet where they spent an hour on "animals gone wild" type of storylines (including hunting incidents), these are bothersome to me as clearly they are exploiting the incident for entertainment and ratings, while pretending to be a nature show. I can't help but to think that "boy, it's ok for them to do it, but not us". It's all pretty confusing actually, where one chooses to draw their lines. I guess the trick is to not think too-too deeply about it!

I agree that a lot of what is on YouTube is disturbing, as are the replies/comments...but if you ever heard what goes on under the headsets of the “kids” when they are online gaming…it’s all pretty offensive!

Regards, Bill

Bill I was going to reference the Chipman lion charge from "The Jaws of Simba". Mike/LionHunter touched on it and I'm glad you brought it up. It is one of the better case studies out there. You, Mike and I have hunted in Zambia, and are very familiar with the incident.

My apologies in advance to those who haven't ever seen it, but I'll give you one guess where you can find it. That's right, YouTube.

The client, Wes Hixon, does own up well to the fact that he caused the incident, and in dramatic detail the narrator Bob Losier, a former CNN colleague of mine, details the pain felt by Wes because he wounded the lion. That along with the fact that Peter (the mauling victim) and Wes were best friends gives this video a human touch. And because of that this DVD gets a passing grade, despite the dramatic lion charge.

Even to this day, Wes, takes no pleasure in the fact that he almost caused the death of his best friend Peter. He still has nightmares about it, and freely admits publicly he messed up. That's the bravery I'm talking about that needs to resonate. The bravery to admit that you screwed up.

THE CONFLICT
Bill contrary to what many believe, the anti's realize privately they're not going to wipe us all out. Neither are we going to wipe out all of them. It's the same struggle endured by Dems and Repubs on Capitol Hill. Both sides spew rhetoric that sounds like hate. That's the standard that these bitter rivals have to publicly fight to gain just a modicum of victory. So some of the toughest battles behind closed doors boil down to, "How do we both get along and co-exist?" And the online posting and distribution of sensational, dramatic lion charges weakens our hand. Why? Because they portray the MODERN DAY hunter as senseless, cowardly and cruel. Why the lion you ask? Because of it's place in the food chain and simba's significance in the African bush. It's the King, and the cornerstone of major studies being conducted throughout Africa. The ridiculous assertions that safari hunters have endangered the lion manifest everyday. BBC, 60 Minutes. Newsweek And the anti's believe if hunters can treat the King like this, they will certainly treat anything else in the animal kingdom like this, with disrespect.

Their experts skew their wildlife reports to benefit their cause. Our experts skew theirs to benefit us, and it's a vicious cycle.

SETBACKS
Everytime one of these videos like the one Brett alerted us to from "Kamboko Safaris" surfaces, it sets us back a notch. That's why I launched this thread, to give AR members a behind the scenes glimpse of what we're up against. Calling me names and questioning my motives doesn't further our cause. Skeptics can continually cast doubt over these topics I raise, but I assert to you that I'm one of the good guys. I'm trying to make a difference. My videos have given me access. Now I'm trying to do something with that access.

I know you get it Bill and I appreciate your sincere questions. I didn't mean to imply the lion charges are one of the three most dangerous weapons. I actually meant one of "THEE " most dangerous weapons.

Yours in the FIGHT.

I am getting the impression that some of our friends have misunderstood what Mark is trying to say.

I think he is trying to say there are things which are shown on TV and youtube which some of us do find offensive.

Personaly, I find this no different than the Mark Sullivan videos.

I don't like them.

I don't like political correctness.

I am certainly not a bunny hugger.

But, some of the shows do show - to me at least - what seems to be a bunch of utter idiots hi fiving and back slapping and saying things that I have never heard being said at any kill throughtout the years I have hunted.

This subject of shows came up while we were hungting this year.

And without exceptions, every PH and client present stated they desliked these shows.

They do nothing to promote our sport.

Since three of us here have mentioned it:

IN THE JAWS OF SIMBA is available as a dvd from Amazon.com for $19.95.

They currently have only 4 in stock.

You won't be sorry if you get this one. The entire safari Wes makes with Peter in Zambia is on the DVD. It's a keeper just for the charge and the bad shot Wes takes to wound the Lion initially, and yes Wes mans up about it. Peter was very lucky that this Lions lower jaw was broken during the charge, as this allowed Simba only to sink his uppers into his knee, but not close and chew for a bit. Peter was back in the field as my PH within months of being released from hospital. I had to ask about the fresh scars on his knee before he even mentioned it. He still hunts Lion in the Valley and is usually at SCI. I'd hunt with him anywhere.

The clip of the charge available online is poor quality and doesn't present the entire situation.

BTW, I have no fiduciary interest in the film, mores the pity.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:

quote:

I am just curious, you make and produce DVDs. I presume that on your hunts the cameraman is pretty much running the camera the entire time. When you do cat hunts, is your cameraman under instructions that if the first shot does not stop the cat that they are to cease filming immediately and not to resume filming until the cat is dead? Are they under instructions not to film any follow up including potential charges? Just curious.

Mike: In response to the above. My cameraman is never under instructions to turn his camera off during any hunting sequences whatsoever. That's ridiculous. My hunts are presented in real time. No fake cutaways. No staging or re-creations. I show you my safari exactly the way it happens, exactly the way it confronts me the hunter. I've taken eight cats in Africa shooting eleven times. None of them has resulted in wounded cats charging. I'm not advocating that cameramen refrain from videotaping cat charges.

My point exactly. And if your cameraman ever does capture a charge on video I am quite confident that it will show up on a $39.95 DVD that will be hyped in part on the basis that it includes a cat charge. I agree with one of the other posters, sounds a bit like do as I say, not as I do.

Bwana - Hope you're not going to tell me I have to stop hunting lions? Man, that would suck!!

Hey Aaron,

I was in hopes you would show up to join the discussion. Please check the Lion from a Truck thread that eventually led up to this one.

quote:

I have no fiduciary interest in the film, mores the pity.

Unfortunately Mike, neither does Peter!

Marc, thanks for the insightful reply, and yes, I do get "it" (I think), and I appreciate and respect what you are trying to accomplish. But “it” is complex, and those that say “To Hell with them, we are at WAR!” have some merit. As you say, behind closed doors perhaps, with the rhetoric out of the way, I too hope that some common ground can be found. I believe the fanatics aside, that we have quite a bit more in common then we think.

Reg the "lion charges", I just wonder if - purely hypothetically - there were never another lion charge video ever aired again, would that be enough? I think we all know the answer. They would simply move to #2 on their Most Offensive List and I am sure it would be a good one too. But, your point is - why make it easy. And, we need to start somewhere.

I agree in concept, and we (we being hunters AND hunting companies and everybody involved in the hunting community) need to do a better job. Like the professional (or even college) athletes today, assume everything is going to hit YouTube or Twitter.

The anti-hunters seem to get carried away with the "glitzy" issues, but the real danger IMHO is what happens if and when they focus their attentions on the real "dirty laundry" in the industry. In some respects, this makes Mark Sullivan quite useful...sort of a distraction grenade!

quote:

My point exactly. And if your cameraman ever does capture a charge on video I am quite confident that it will show up on a $39.95 DVD that will be hyped in part on the basis that it includes a cat charge. I agree with one of the other posters, sounds a bit like do as I say, not as I do.

Mike: That claim, 'do as I say, not as I do', is baseless. I have never been charged by a cat nor anything else in Africa, so how could I have put something like than in a video. It has never happened to me. I've never done it, so how can you make the above claim.

My body of work supports the point I'm making in this thread. I'm saying to glorify a wounded cat charge is wrong. I've never done it and you're flat out wrong in suggesting that I have done it. That's misrepresenting my work when flat out the record indicates what I'm stating is the truth.

If you can find one frame of video anywhere in the universe of me being charged, I'll buy you a new .500 rifle. I'm asking you to withdraw that comment and apologize. That is simply not fair, and it's untruthful.

Anyone, who goes out of his way to encourage a charge from a wounded animal, is an idiot.

No questions about this in my mind whatsoever.

While we're at it, why don't we also ban re-runs of The Jerry Springer Show?

Put that on the ballot, and I will definitely vote for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Why don't we also ban re-runs of The Jerry Springer Show?

Put that on the ballot, and I will definitely vote for it.

I disagree!

The Springer show is great at showing how stupid some human's are, and has no reflection on hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Why don't we also ban re-runs of The Jerry Springer Show?

Put that on the ballot, and I will definitely vote for it.

I disagree!

The Springer show is great at showing how stupid some human's are, and has no reflection on hunting.

Ah, but let us not forget: Some stupid humans hunt big cats in Africa.

And before anyone else comments, I definitely DO resemble that remark.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone, who goes out of his way to encourage a charge from a wounded animal, is an idiot.

No questions about this in my mind whatsoever.

And yet for the last hundred years or so, that image of the fearless hunter and his trusty double have been in the minds of hollywood and the great writers of the last century:

quote:

As Roosevelt stands over a freshly shot eland, a native guide approaches with the news of a rhinoceros sighted near by. Roosevelt follows the guide accompanied by Captain Arthur Slatter, an Englishman who runs an ostrich farm and an excellent hunter despite earlier losing his right hand.
"Slatter and I immediately rode in the direction given, following our wild-looking guide; the other gun-bearer trotting after us. In five minutes we had reached the opposite hillcrest, where the watcher stood, and he at once pointed out the rhino. The huge beast was standing in entirely open country, although there were a few scattered trees of no great size at some little distance from him. We left our horses in a dip of the ground and began the approach; I cannot say that we stalked him, for the approach was too easy. The wind blew from him to us, and a rhino's eyesight is dull. Thirty yards from where he stood was a bush four or five feet high, and through the leaves, it shielded us from the vision of his small, piglike eyes as we advanced toward it, stooping and in single file, I leading. The big beast stood like an uncouth statue, his hide black in the sunlight; he seemed what he was, a monster surviving over from the world's past, from the days when the beasts of the prime ran riot in their strength, before man grew so cunning of brain and hand as to master them. So little did he dream of our presence that when we were a hundred yards off he actually lay down.
"Walking lightly, and with every sense keyed up, we at last reached the bush, and I pushed forward the safety of the double-barreled Holland rifle which I was now to use for the first time on big game. As I stepped to one side of the bush so as to get a clear aim, with Slatter following, the rhino saw me and jumped to his feet with the agility of a polo pony. As he rose I put in the right barrel, the bullet going through both lungs. At the same moment he wheeled, the blood spouting from his nostrils, and galloped full on.
"Before he could get quite all the way round in his headlong rush to reach us, I struck him with my left-hand barrel, the bullet entering between the neck and shoulder and piercing his heart. At the same instant Captain Slatter fired, his bullet entering the neck vertebrae. Ploughing up the ground with horn and feet, the great bull rhino, still head toward us, dropped just thirteen paces from where we stood.
"This was a wicked charge, for the rhino meant mischief and came on with the utmost determination."

"On Safari With Theodore Roosevelt, 1909," EyeWitness to History www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (1997).

So then when the Pros quite reasonably start falling over laughing, the late colonel provides us a picture:

Good Post DMCI*.
I wonder how many PH would be out of a job nowdays, if it were not for peoples minds being planted and fueled with dreamy desires to emulate, due to the accumulative effect of many decades of such style writings.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Since three of us here have mentioned it:

IN THE JAWS OF SIMBA is available as a dvd from Amazon.com for $19.95.

They currently have only 4 in stock.

You won't be sorry if you get this one. The entire safari Wes makes with Peter in Zambia is on the DVD. It's a keeper just for the charge and the bad shot Wes takes to wound the Lion initially, and yes Wes mans up about it. Peter was very lucky that this Lions lower jaw was broken during the charge, as this allowed Simba only to sink his uppers into his knee, but not close and chew for a bit. Peter was back in the field as my PH within months of being released from hospital. I had to ask about the fresh scars on his knee before he even mentioned it. He still hunts Lion in the Valley and is usually at SCI. I'd hunt with him anywhere.

The clip of the charge available online is poor quality and doesn't present the entire situation.

BTW, I have no fiduciary interest in the film, mores the pity.

Note Peter is a very fine PH and well respected here.

In my opinion he made a mistake and although he made a good decision to call in the truck he was impatient and kept himself within the Lion's attack zone. I seem to remember he went in rather than backing off. This could probably well be influenced by the fact the sequence and hunt was being filmed.

But hey us PH's are human as well.

You are all playing into the hands of these pansies. This is what they want us to do. Sit here and bicker amongst ourselves while they slowly remove our freedom. Quit being such a whimp and worrying about what other people have on film or are selling on film. If you don't think it's right then don't buy it. Don't make it your personal goal to take away something that someone else might enjoy just because some body is "offended". Meating in the middle with these people is loosing the war. The entire anti-hunting movement has nothing to do with animal rights or cruelty. It is about people who enjoy controlling you.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
You are all playing into the hands of these pansies. This is what they want us to do. Sit here and bicker amongst ourselves while they slowly remove our freedom. Quit being such a whimp and worrying about what other people have on film or are selling on film. If you don't think it's right then don't buy it. Don't make it your personal goal to take away something that someone else might enjoy just because some body is "offended". Meating in the middle with these people is loosing the war. The entire anti-hunting movement has nothing to do with animal rights or cruelty. It is about people who enjoy controlling you.

Animal rights activists are getting stronger and bolder by the hour, giving them unnecessary ammunition will only strengthen their resolve and quite frankly the way we are handling the situation is akin to digging our own grave.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Animal rights activists are getting stronger and bolder by the hour, giving them unnecessary ammunition will only strengthen their resolve and quite frankly the way we are handling the situation is akin to digging our own grave.

Bloody right!

I don't have a problem at all with the well made, professionally filmed DVDs such as Bod on whatever but now that every dope and his dog has a video camera and access to You Tube we're just giving the antis no end of ammo to use against us.

You Tube (esp) and the mucking forons that post all that crap will be the death of hunting.

+1 on the mucking foroms

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
+1 on the mucking foroms

pheasant pluckers

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:

quote:

My point exactly. And if your cameraman ever does capture a charge on video I am quite confident that it will show up on a $39.95 DVD that will be hyped in part on the basis that it includes a cat charge. I agree with one of the other posters, sounds a bit like do as I say, not as I do.

Mike: That claim, 'do as I say, not as I do', is baseless. I have never been charged by a cat nor anything else in Africa, so how could I have put something like than in a video. It has never happened to me. I've never done it, so how can you make the above claim.

My body of work supports the point I'm making in this thread. I'm saying to glorify a wounded cat charge is wrong. I've never done it and you're flat out wrong in suggesting that I have done it. That's misrepresenting my work when flat out the record indicates what I'm stating is the truth.

If you can find one frame of video anywhere in the universe of me being charged, I'll buy you a new .500 rifle. I'm asking you to withdraw that comment and apologize. That is simply not fair, and it's untruthful.

You missed the point, again. My point is that if you ever do get footage of a charge, I will bet a dollar for a donut that the charge makes a DVD. Otherwise, why do you need for your cameraman to keep filming to capture footage. If you have no intention of ever using or profiting based on charge footage, then why wouldn't you tell your cameraman, if the animal is not DRT, stop filming until we make the recovery? If there is no footage, there is no footage to be abused in the fashion you described initially.

"You other guys don't show charge footage so I can increase sales of charge DVD's."

The dumbasses who post the videos of hunters demonstrating bad behavior and poor judgement are not the types of ladies and gentlemen who frequent these forums. So you are truely "preaching to the choir".

You absolutely can not control what people post on YOUTUBE.

Someone who represents the hunting community is wasting their time by having any intercourse what-so-ever with anti hunters or animal rights people. They simply do not ACT on logic. They REACT to their own emotions. They are fanitics. They will not meet us halfway, they will not give an inch, they will not change their minds, they simply won't be satisfied with anything short of a ban on sport hunting, some aspects of commercial fishing, commercial beef and poultry production, and most pet ownership. In other words they are crazy.

Bwana Moja, You might do better to direct your efforts at the offensive videos. There is usually a comment section under the videos where you can let the owner know what you think.

Mike,

I don't think it's the professional video companies that are usually the problem.

To me, it's the amateurs and the wannabees that don't know the difference between what's appropriate and what isn't....... and then either post their crap on their own website or You Tube. as an aside, their camera work is usually also second rate to say the least.

Muletrain!!!
who you call'en a gentlemen??? them's fighten word boy didn't ya know that

Having been raised in the South, I was just being polite.

You being the offended party have, ofcourse, the choice of weapons.

if I see any other guy with a southern accent high five and breath like he has run five miles after shooting a white tail deer on a feed plot I'm going to puke
These are the type of people who post on YouTube same mentality or should I say lack of mentality

polite thats speaking softly with a single action army in your hand right
weapon of choice will be single malt if no moon shine is available Time sat. evening at DSC

Forgot to add, I have a ten foot dick and a bucket of balls, so I resent you calling me boy.

Single action army, I will stick with my SIG 220.

sorry little fella but us men from akansas would consider that modest size at best!! unless the bucket of balls is for the six pounder of course

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
polite thats speaking softly with a single action army in your hand right
weapon of choice will be single malt if no moon shine is available Time sat. evening at DSC

Dnag it!!! I will be at the deer lease all weekend, otherwise I would take you up on the offer.

the shine in on the counter at the house

if i get a job in texas we can set another date to settling this of the small matter of honor

Shakari writes:
========================
Mike,

I don't think it's the professional video companies that are usually the problem.

To me, it's the amateurs and the wannabees that don't know the difference between what's appropriate and what isn't....... and then either post their crap on their own website or You Tube. as an aside, their camera work is usually also second rate to say the least.
=================

Steve: Thank you for saying that. You are 100% correct.

Mike: Here's my take on what you said. I get your point. Personally. I'm not a "charge" guy. That's what I've been saying this entire thread. Secondly, my body of work indicates so far 100% COMPLETELY, that I'm not a safari hunter gets charged. It's hunting, anything yes can happen, but I believe strongly because of my skill set in the field, that I will never be charged by a cat or even a cape buffalo that I personally maim or wound.

Now let's go to your hypothetical. If that were to happen, I would have to show it but I would not hype it or glorify it. I would not be proud of it. I would not hi-five it nor yuck-it-up, upon elimination of the threat. Furthermore, I would look right into the camera and say, "My fellow hunters I screwed up. This is not the proper way to hunt dangerous game. My inaccurate shot placement is a disrespect to the animal and my PH who worked his ass off for me." Just like Wes did.

I would not hide it or deny it. I would tell the truth about it. I would find no HONOR in it, and because of that, I would not rely on it nor pimp it for DVD sales. That's not what I do. I rely on the positive accomplishments in the field to sell my products, not my failures. A wounded cat charging me would be a FAILURE. I do show my misses in my DVD's as well. I show them in real time in slow motion.

So your jab at me, 'do as I say not as I do' is baseless. I have never been charged in the field. I've explained to you hypothetically how I would handle such an incident, but that is a very big IF. 'Do as I say, not as I do' refers to the present tense Mike. And no matter how you slice it or dice it in this regard, it doesn't apply to me (today present tense or in the future.) And it was unfair and a low blow for you to say that about me.

My post is titled "Glorifying Cat Charges: STOP". I have never glorified one, never been involved in one and have now explained to you why I would never glorify one IF ever involved in one. This explanation should show you that I did NOT miss your point "again."

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
Personally, and this is just my humble opinion, I find those jackass hillbilly circle jerks after a kill to be distasteful and degrading not only to my fellow sportsmen and women, but to the honor of the animal itself.

Amen! This is one of my pet peeves.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
... now that every dope and his dog has a video camera and access to You Tube we're just giving the antis no end of ammo to use against us.

You Tube (esp) and the mucking forons that post all that crap will be the death of hunting.

...

To me, it's the amateurs and the wannabees that don't know the difference between what's appropriate and what isn't....... and then either post their crap on their own website or You Tube. as an aside, their camera work is usually also second rate to say the least.

I was pretty much in agreement with the consensus opinion, but as this discussion has progressed it is becoming more elitist and less palatable. "Every dope and his dog has a video camera..."? "Amateurs and the wannabees..."?

I think it is a small percentage of returning hunters that post objectionable videos and photos. Can you blame hunters for wanting to share their experiences? It's all about ego. Moja's got one; Boddington's got one; Shakari, too. It's just that most of us can't afford to edit and produce video like Sable Trails or Safari Classics (or make money on our efforts, sorry to say).

While I almost always agree with you Steve, this sounds like, "step aside you bunch of wankers and leave the spotlight to me and the other 'pros' when it comes to taking the public spotlight. We're the only qualified arbiters of what's appropriate for a video".

Most of the folks on this board are amateurs and wannabees, and many of us have videos taken of our hunts. Not everyone can be a Shakari or a Bwana Moja, so don't blame the amateur or "wannabee" big game hunter who also wants to share their hunting experience on their return. Just because we're not professionals and our video quality is "second rate" doesn't mean we're 'dopes'. Go after the few miscreant video posters, not the rest of us.

Any of these videos do have educational value. Excluding Moja and perhaps a couple of others any of us could muff a shot. How else could you have a chance to see what you could be exposed to? Just like Sullivan videos, I would at least have an inkling of what to expect from a charge if it all went bad. Sure beats on th job training.

Jeff