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I once crawled on hands and knees through several hundred yards of rock and brush and cactus and then happily shot a mule deer in his bed while he faced away from me. If I had the dough to repeat that with a snoozing lion, I'd do in a heartbeat. I was always taught that my goal as a hunter was to take a clean shot at a totally unaware animal. If I do that, I've done my job. I'd argue that shooting a sleeping (and lightly I'd wager) deer or lion is more "sporting" (at least to me) than shooting one eating a dead hippo or feeder-spread corn. _____________________ A successful man is one who earns more money than his wife can spend. | |||
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I have to agree with Larry on this episode. I didn't like what I saw either, but I will continue to watch the shows. ____________________________ .470 & 9.3X74R Chapuis' Tikka O/U 9.3X74R Searcy Classics 450/.400 3" & .577 C&H .375 2 1/2" Krieghoff .500 NE Member Dallas Safari Club | |||
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I didn't see the show. But I have shot 2 Bull Elk while sleeping in their beds. I was quite proud of the fact that I got within range without alerting them. I shot a Bull Elephant in 2008 at 12 yards with a side brain shot as he snoozed under a Baobab tree. I've always considered it a successful stalk to get within shooting range on a sleeping wild animal. From what has been described here, I would say that sounds like a hell of a stalk and congrats to the hunter. Good on ya! Keep up the good work Dave! This viewer will certainly keep on watching. | |||
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Guys - Way too much to read here, but I have seen the entire footage to which you refer, and I have read the OP. My only concern from Day 1 has been the shooting of mature lions, nothing more. As long as said shooting of mature lion is legal, then good for them. Here's what I will say, and its JMO - nothing more. To actually track a lion, and to get the slip on him, without him knowing you are there, is an incredible feat to say the least! Nothing, and I mean nothing, has the alert senses of a predator/cat! Frankly, the only reason they were able to do such a feat in the first place, is he's a mature/male lion. In other words, he feels like he is the "king of beasts", and nothing scares him or bothers him, period! The fact that he chose to lay in a sandy river bed, was simply good luck for the hunter/PH, and made for some great footage! Now, I'm no lion hunting expert (As A.H.Q. has pointed out several times - Sorry A.H.Q., had to do it) but, I have tracked lions a time or two, including a fabulous lion hunt in Botswana - 2007. I was amazed at this particular piece of footage, and I could not have imagined actually pulling it off like that. Again, and its JMO, but the fact that these guys were able to hunt a lion on foot, in the daylight, and approach him without him knowing they were there, is amazing! Without any question, this was a proper lion hunt, the way any hunt is/was intended to be done. I just wish it were me, to tell you the truth. Congrats Dave/Tim and the Chifuti guys - at least that's how I feel about it. | |||
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Dave, Look at it this way. Nobody mentioned the advertising yet. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I don't have a problem with him shooting a sleeping lion under the circumstances identified in this case. As someone else alluded...how much different is it to shoot a cat asleep than shooting one that has it's head buried in a hippo's belly. In the interest of full disclosure ....I don't find big cat hunting to be an adventure worth the cost. Shooting a big cat that is oblivious to your presence while it's feeding ( or sleeping in this case) off a dead rest at moderate range just doesn't interest me. That's just me. I much prefer tracking Buff or Elephant..working in CLOSE on foot before taking the shot. | |||
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Where can you hunt lions for 45K? Dave, Aaron, Mike: good answers. I would have shot that lion too. And Larry, while I think there is too much made about "I shot more xyz than you and therefore I know..." in the case of lions, I would say if you haven't hunted them ever it is easy to preach. As for the ele, who cares if the PH shoots? I always tell my PH to unload on anything I shoot at. I don't miss, so if he wants to join in the fun, have at it. | |||
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Thanks, Tom. By way of coincidence my first hunting article was published in the current issue of African Hunting Gazette alongside one by Craig Boddington. Coincidental to be sure, but flattering all the same. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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There was one advertised in the Save for under $40K plus a $7K trophy fee just a few weeks ago. Hunts in the Zambezi Valley run a little less on the daily fees, a little more on the bait animals. Not like the prices in Tanzania or Zambia. Mike | |||
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KPete I also had a story published in the latest issue of AHG. It was the one just before yours. GREAT story! LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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 Kim, honestly, I thought it was me. Thank you. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Based on the experience of others, I would shoot the mature lion = I do not care one wit if he was sleeping, dancing, doing yoga or what. If I had a kill shot, I would take it. Have any of you seen Boddington on Lion DVD? What do you think of those shots? | |||
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Please note: the question has been asked, "How would you have handled the situation differently?" There has been a lot of beating around the bush, but no one has answered the question.... I will agree with those who contend(mac?) that it is not ethics that we argue, but rather aesthetics. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Agreed! Hunting is unpredictable and I say good for the hunter and PH to have a stroke of luck with a mature male lion. I'll bet any hunter would take that shot on their first lion hunt, and if you ever go hunt them unsuccessfully you would most certainly take whatever the hunting Gods provide you... Just my opinion... DAN | |||
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I was flipping channels the other day and caught it as it was just coming on...flipped right on past. My calm remained undamaged. Glad I didn't watch by the sound of it. | |||
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AS Wildlife Gallery stated "...hunting is unpredictable." Nov. 9, 2008 my PH Paul Jelonek, tracker Rashidi and I were in a blind on the last afternoon of my hunt with 15 minutes of good light left. When the lioness' began to call this old boy answered and walked directly in front of the blind. No, he wasn't the pride male as that one had a much larger and darker mane as we had witnessed throughout the hunt. I was sitting on the ground and could have reached out and touched his front paw. He never smelled or sensed our presence. He walked directly away from the blind about 50 yards towards a piece of meat that had been torn from the bait. I told Paul to whistle and he stopped and slowly turned to gaze at me as I shot. Had he laid down at the bait or even been asleep at the bait I would have shot. Having a lion so close you can feel and smell his breath was unpredictable and exciting. I'm going to have to post a late hunt report on this one, I think. I take no sides on this issue. I love the show and will always continue to watch. Next best thing to being there. By the way, Larry, I love your DVD's as well and really appreciated you sending them to me. You have had some exciting hunts. Oh, by the way, you can about double that $45K when all is said and done. Dutch | |||
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I come down on the side of Tim Hearld. I was fortunate enough to take a lion in a similar manner, only mine was asleep under a tree. He was a good mature lion, taken fairly and cleanly. Stalking to get into a position to take the shot without waking the lion was an adrenilene pumping thrill. Some years ago I watched a guy waiting for a whitetail to wake up, as he thought it was not sporting to shoot him while asleep. He changed his mind after missing the now awake deer that was running like hell. We are all different in our likes and dislikes. Tim | |||
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Shooting the sleeping lion is no big deal, I shot a tuskless that was taking a snooze. That first shot always wakes them up! | |||
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Dave - Still waiting for your answer as to how many Lion you have personally taken. Still curious. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
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Why is this so important? Larry you profess your personal ethics and claim not to shoot a duck on water but really what are you doing here? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Guys - I know Dave went fishing today for big catfish, so he's probably not looked at this thread in the past 12 hrs, just FYI. | |||
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He's probably using dynamite for bait, right Larry?  | |||
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He always impressed me as a "noodler".  Mike | |||
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Probably calling em up on the ole telephone! | |||
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Yep! Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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fairgame - you have a PM. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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I just finished watching the episode ( tivo'd) I have no issue with the hunt or the hunter. I woulda shot that lion happily, snuck up on it without it ever knowing you where there!!! I thought that was how it was supposed to work. . | |||
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I just watched the show, I thought the show was fine. I don't understand how a sleeping lion in an open riverbed is any less sporting than shooting one over bait from a blind. So...I am NOT done with Hornady's Africa. Dave, Ivan and the rest of the gang, keep at it. Go Duke!! | |||
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Ditto to all the above. Well said. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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We tracked my Kudu over an hour before I saw him the first time and got an offhand shot on my him two years ago. The effort makes the trophy I walked over 120K over 8 days with temps that never dropped below 100-degrees in Zim 4 years ago before I got on the sticks for my buffalo. That effort made the trophy. The trophy, for most sportsmen/women has value proportional to the effort. It is the difference between shooting and hunting. That is too complex a concept for the shooters here, it seems. For them, sadly, the only emphasis is on justifying the cost of the hunt by killing something. jmho... Rich | |||
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Rich - I like that, and congrats on your two well earned trophies. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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Like a fine wine, memories become "sweeter" with time I fear. Mike | |||
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It will really make a great epitaph on huntings Tombstone: Here Lies Hunting-Killed By Individual Egos-Ethics-Aestetics-Self-Righteousness-Greed. Pity That Hunters Could Not Set Aside Personal Opinions To Keep The Sport From Dying. Hunters Accomplished What Anti-Hunters Could Not! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And fish always grow larger and never smaller.
______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Two big blue cat's yesterday, 23 and 26 lbs from Texoma. Both wide awake when they bit I suppose !Larry, I have one old lion under my personal belt due to desire and budget. I never claimed to be the final word on the subject. I have, however, been after the beasts side by side with the hunter holding the rifle in most of the African countries where they are open for hunting for over 20 years. I have done so with video camera in hand, much of that footage watched by you guys for years. I guess it could be said that officially "I " was not hunting, yet I have shared the charges, stalks, blind sitting, early mornings, late returns, bug bites, sickness, heat stroke, freezing and all the rest from one end of the joint to the other. I have been in on , and helped finish lions with a rifle in place of camera several times as well if that counts. I truly cannot say exactly how many fair chase lion hunts I have been a part of over the years, but it is considerable. As Jerimiah Johnson said " It feels like far " So s far as personal body count goes Larry, I guess upon reflection, I am a lightweight. But having a good number of Simbas aiming at my belly button over the years, I believe that my opinions must surly carry "some weight ? " You may disagree. Thats OK.And yes, we, and I do fumble once in a while and I never say otherwise. But I do not think this was one of those times. Dave Fulson | |||
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Dave - Thanks for the insight on your personal lion escapades. Congrats on the cats, as in fish, they do bite mostly by smell rather than sight however  . Guess we can agree to disagree on how the three parts of the Show I questioned were handled on your side.Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
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Larry I can live with that. Hope you will keep watching though. We really do try to bring a quality program to our guys each week, but understand that each person views certain things differently from time to time. This is indeed one of those times. Best of luck Dave Dave Fulson | |||
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Well, I guess it's now time for a group hug & a singing of kum-ba-ya. Or however you spell it. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Each to their own moral code, ..but in my eyes setting up a bait to draw in and shoot game is not ethically superior to shooting ducks on the water or game at a water hole,...yet some people are so opposed to one but quite accepting of the other.
As I've said before, If shooting from a vehicle definitely allows a clearer more precise shot to be taken to achieve a clean swift kill, i don't see the ethical issue. If walking 50yd from the vehicle gives people a clearer conscience/makes a person feel better for when they tell the story back home, then maybe thats the thing to do. Ive come across game that was asleep, It personally felt better to shoot when it awoke and was aware of my presence. However if I was in a pure survival situation rather than a recreationa-sporting situation,I would use every situation to my advantage, if taking an asleep animal meant a better chance of taking the animal, I would not hesitate. | |||
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I finally got a chance to watch the show today during my lunch hour. I personally don't have any problems with the hunt of any/all of the animals shown. The hunter said he ahd been after lion before, but with no luck. I'm sure he slept very well that evening after taking that fine lion. I would have thrown away the bolt to the rifle after getting the lioness the next day and called the safari a success on all accounts!!! I shot a mule deer last year at 302 yards that was alseep in his bed. He never even kicked a leg after the shot. I was satisfied with the shot and an ethical kill, as with the lion. Just last week I was hunting wild boar in Hawaii. I didn't get a boar but had the chance to take a medium sized pig. The guide wanted me to shoot the pig, but I told him I was under no pressure to shoot as I was there more for the experience. Trust me, the guide felt worse than I did after I didn't get a boar and wanted me to come back the next day and try again. To each his own!!! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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