quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Dave- Just curious as to how many Lions you have personally taken? It's just sad to see your Shows that have had the upmost quality, respect and character slip to this level for whatever reason was behind it. I am a football fan, and I see you do admit to fumbling every once in a while. Hopefully you will hold the ball a little tighter in the future?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I have no problem with Larry or anybody else saying"personally, I would have not shot that lion in that position" but to say " Thats it, I'm done with Tracks and Hornady," well like Russel I thought," You got to be kidding !"
Nevertheless I respect his option and choice to say adios to a show we produce for guys that love Africa and dangerous game hunting. I do not know if Larry is a football fan, but if so, I hope the quarterback of his favorite team never fumbles or throws a pick cause it will be " Thats it Aaron Rogers, I am never watching another Packers game " Oh well.....

WHAT A PILE OF BS. i suppose shooting a lion from a blind while he is gorging himself on a buff hind quarter is more "sporting"? if i ever could afford to hunt lion and had a chance to track one and get a shot while he slept- well, game over. i suppose Larry would wake him up first to be "fair".

This thread is just one of many examples of what drives me crazy about AR. I know it will not change, but sure seems to me there are a lot or maybe just a few of amazing superstars in the hunting world who love to see their words in print. As my mother told me often..."if you can't say something nice keep your mouth shut" or in this case stay of the keyboard. If you don't like the show don't watch...thats easy. I watched the show, I watch it every Sunday when I can. It is well done IMO ... sure some guys miss a shot (placement), oh and some guys are not in as good a shape as others, wow, I guess they should pass a physical when they buy their license. I don't know the hunter but trust Mike Jines comments, he's probably a decent fellow having the hunt and experience of a life time...guess it was too bad for him, he was able to stalk within shooting distannce of a sleeping Lion ( the odasity of that feline ) and then have the misfortune to have it all caught on tape. Holy crap cut the guy some slack, he did nothing wrong, illegal, or unethical. Hope his rifle was acceptable to all the experts shish....I mean this is the kind of stuff that would really discourage me from ever posting a hunt report...I mean you might not measure up to the experts expectations ....what is the appropriate waist size anyway??

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i suppose Larry would wake him up first to be "fair".

Well, maybe we will never know... Larry seems to be avoiding the question. Larry has stated that he would pass up the shot, but he has not actually said what he would do if he tracked up on a sleeping lion.

Larry, I will ask again: what would you have done?

In some european countries it is considered very (!!) unethical to shot a sleeping animal. Some people don't find it unethical, so what No reason to start a fight.
We will never find ethics that will make every hunter happy. I respect Larrys opinion and I honestly can't say what I would do if I would find a nice lion sleeping in a river bed.

Jason - Guess you missed the answer??? It is way back on page one, two lines down from where Will Parks asked it. FWIW, again, I don't/won't shoot ANY sleeping animal, period. Would have passed the shot in that situation.

If you'all want to shoot'em sleeping, go right ahead as I stated. Just not somthing I do.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i suppose Larry would wake him up first to be "fair".

Well, maybe we will never know... Larry seems to be avoiding the question. Larry has stated that he would pass up the shot, but he has not actually said what he would do if he tracked up on a sleeping lion.

Larry, I will ask again: what would you have done?

quote:

I mean this is the kind of stuff that would really discourage me from ever posting a hunt report...I mean you might not measure up to the experts expectations ....what is the appropriate waist size anyway??

RW,

This is exactly why you'll never see a hunt report from me on this sight. There are far to many "experts" on this site. I've done 4 DG hunts along with at least that many plains game hunts in the last decade and have never felt compelled to put down a single word about them here on AR.

Let me just say this about TAA and Hornandy's Africa. Obviously this or any show isn't going to be able to provide for every bodies tastes with every episode. I myself was very disappointed with several episodes last year.

HOWEVER and with that being said there is no other show that even comes close to the quality of what Dave and Tim at Safari Classics are putting out there. When I say quality I'm talking the whole package, filming, editing, film quality, the hunts (free range in quality areas) themselves ETC ETC. So while some of the episodes are not going to trip my trigger, blow my skirt up, float my boat, whatever. The overall quality of the material and how it is being produced can not be denied.

Even though I'd still like to punch Dave in the mouth one of these days for a totally different reason. I find no fault with his ability produce the finest outdoor, hunting films available on today's market, period bar none, his work is far and away above the average.

PS

I don't really want to punch Dave, I have simmered down to the point of desiring to deliver merely a slight bitch slapping at this point.

I couldn't agree more with what you have said surestrike ( all but the Dave thing ) i mean I believe most of use are just trying to do our jobs the best we can, enjoy life in the manner we know how too. If we were all exactly alike it would be a very sorry place. I believe we all go through phases as in life also in our "hunting experience" I would never and have never poached any animal, would I have a problem with a truly needy person shooting a deer out of season to provide for his family? I don't think so...I could care less if so and so would or would not shoot a sleeping animal....what EVER his decision doesn't make him any better or ant worse than me, as long as his actions were legal, and HE felt his actions were appropriate. I just wish our comments to each other were civil, all the know it all attitudes detract from our pastime. There are a lot of observers taking notes. AR has been a welcome place to me to hear others experiences, learn from others experiences, etc....its just tiring to read the personal assaults if the writer just happens to have a different perspective. Just saying lets all try to get along. We have more influence together than fighting amount our selves...I've rambled enough Can't wait for the next TAA this week end...keep em coming

Larry,

I think JBrown was trying to figure out what you would do, not what you wouldn't do in that situation. We all know that you wouldn't shoot the lion, which was the purpose of your thread. I respect your decision. I am not sure how I would handle it.

I believe JBrown wanted to know if you would attempt to alter the situation, or just move on. That question may be more appropriate for PH who may have experienced a similar situation with a hunter reluctant to take that shot. I am not questioning ethics, but tactics.

How do you wake the "sleeping lion"? Does the old saying mention not waking a sleeping dog or bear?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Jason - Guess you missed the answer??? It is way back on page one, two lines down from where Will Parks asked it. FWIW, again, I don't/won't shoot ANY sleeping animal, period. Would have passed the shot in that situation.

If you'all want to shoot'em sleeping, go right ahead as I stated. Just not somthing I do.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i suppose Larry would wake him up first to be "fair".

Well, maybe we will never know... Larry seems to be avoiding the question. Larry has stated that he would pass up the shot, but he has not actually said what he would do if he tracked up on a sleeping lion.

Larry, I will ask again: what would you have done?

Thanks guys for your input. Did not think Greg was still sore at me, even slightly, but I would rather take my chances of a haymaker than sit still for a slap.Just not my style. I hope that our 'boxing " in the past is behind us, cause we are really far more alike than either one of us realizes I believe. But I do greatly appreciate your kind words and dedication to our stuff Greg. As I told Larry, and have said on AR many times, we are not perfect in what we do each week, and one guys favorite episode may be at the bottom of another mans list. Human nature at work. Some guys really do not care what their customers think about their service or product. We ARE NOT that kind of outfit. We very much wish to produce a pleasing, exciting, realistic show that our audience enjoys. Some will be better than others, but we try to make EACH ONE worth the half hour our friends invest into it's viewing. On another note, it was great to see, talk to , and meet so many AR brothers& sisters at the conventions. Thanks for your support, encouragement, and acknowledgement"s of our combined efforts "over there". It means a lot, my word on that!

I have not watched this at all and I don't see the problem if someone wants to shoot a sleeping animal.

But what I do hate to watch in any hunting video is where there is some clearly crap shooting and then it is said to be great shooting....
Seriously, someone filming the hunt, or a PH or any hunting guide a**kissing their client and telling them how great they shoot when the shooting clearly has been really bad makes me want to puke.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Thanks guys for your input. Did not think Greg was still sore at me, even slightly, but I would rather take my chances of a haymaker than sit still for a slap.Just not my style. I hope that our 'boxing " in the past is behind us, cause we are really far more alike than either one of us realizes I believe. But I do greatly appreciate your kind words and dedication to our stuff Greg. As I told Larry, and have said on AR many times, we are not perfect in what we do each week, and one guys favorite episode may be at the bottom of another mans list. Human nature at work. Some guys really do not care what their customers think about their service or product. We ARE NOT that kind of outfit. We very much wish to produce a pleasing, exciting, realistic show that our audience enjoys. Some will be better than others, but we try to make EACH ONE worth the half hour our friends invest into it's viewing. On another note, it was great to see, talk to , and meet so many AR brothers& sisters at the conventions. Thanks for your support, encouragement, and acknowledgement"s of our combined efforts "over there". It means a lot, my word on that!

Dave, it is awesome stuff and I look forward to each episode. Unfortunately, my cable provider blows. It has become a weekly ritual to watch the taped shows on Sundays with my father, though.

Were you at Ivan's DSC monthly meeting last week? Regardless, does Safari Classics produce the DSC promo videos? If so, I was impressed with that as well. Also, do you air in any international venues?

"I don't shoot game birds on the ground, don't shoot ducks and other waterfowl on the water, don't use TNT to fish with, don't shoot from a vehicle."

Last I checked, a lion is not a pheasant, mallard, trout or deer in a field next to the road. If you wound one, your lab doesn't chase it across the pond or field and return it to your feet. Someone (likely the PH) might get seriously injured or killed. If shooting a legal lion in its bed after a long stalk and a 21 day hunt is what is presented, I can't fault the hunter for taking the shot or the PH for encouraging it. It seems to me that a lion roused from sleep, moving rapidly and having its adrenline surge would pose a risk both to the animal and the hunter that was not worth taking for the sake of "sport" or individual ethics.

With all due respect to Larry, if you woke up and found a sleeping mamba at the foot of your bed, would you wake it up to make trying to kill it more sporting?

This has got me thinking.

What if the lion had only been dozing off?

You know, not really sleeping, or even taking a nap, but just nodding off? Would that have been okay?

What if he'd just been daydreaming?

You know, sort of absent-mindedly purring as they sometimes do, and looking off at something far away through half-closed eyelids?

Just off guard and vulnerable, like a little pussy cat, right?

Wouldn't that be just as bad?

Shouldn't we really wire them up and take an EEG before shooting?

Shooting any mammal lying down like that lion is a poor choice. The vitals change location and the angles get sharp and difficult, in ways that increase the odds of wounding. When I saw him line up on that flat lion, I thought "Oh shit this might be an interesting show after all".


Just because it worked doesn't prove it's smart.

I agree twith the last post by SG Olds, while I was watching the show, I was amazed thet the tracker, suggested and then was able to follow up and find the cat in the open in the river bed. I was indeed surprised to see the shot being taken while the cat was lying down, having had a close encounter with a buffalo shot in a siiliar manner ( I am sure he was awake ) But I acturally disrregarded my first thought about the shot, since the PH, suggested and instructed the hunter to shoot. I have also had PH's suggest questionalble shots at questionalble opportunities, but ultimately it is the shooter who decides and pulls the trigger. Unless we were there and in HIS boots, I'll leave any criticisim out of the discussion. Camera angle may play tricks on the viewing audience and gladly it all worked. Who amoung us have been successful doing something that maybe wasn't the smartest thing to do?? The view is much clearer in slow motion and from the couch.

quote:

The view is much clearer in slow motion and from the couch.

That, gentlemen, is the most profound statement in this thread...

I pray I never become an "armchair vigilante" dutifully watching every episode of TAA or Hornady's Africa for a perceived "critical mistake" so I can start a thread here or elsewhere and lambaste some poor, unknowing hunter who was spending his hard-earned bucks living his dream.

I prefer going to Africa and making my own "mistakes" and living my own dreams not prattling away over what some sport did or didn't do while he was on the telly...

Dear DSC
Yes, Tim and I were at Ivan's DSC meeting last month. The largest crowd to ever attend a monthly DSC meeting, and most said the best seminar to date. Ivan was on his game and his passion comes through ! Also, yes we put together much of the Convention footage in association with Kim Thomas here in Dallas. They are pretty strong and get the blood pumping ! Next time, come by and say hi.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
This has got me thinking.

What if the lion had only been dozing off?

You know, not really sleeping, or even taking a nap, but just nodding off? Would that have been okay?

What if he'd just been daydreaming?

You know, sort of absent-mindedly purring as they sometimes do, and looking off at something far away through half-closed eyelids?

Just off guard and vulnerable, like a little pussy cat, right?

Wouldn't that be just as bad?

Shouldn't we really wire them up and take an EEG before shooting?

Mike,

You are on a roll ...
Between this and your response in the "Nerves" thread over in Big Bores, I'd say you have had or are anticipating a good Valentine's Day.

As far as me - I have difficulty seeing how shooting a sleeping lion is less ethical than shooting a lion on bait. Too each, his own and I have no personal problem with either course of events.

I've read and followed the comments on this thread now since the OP. I remember hearing the Outdoor Chanel has a rule against shooting an animal laying down. I've also seen some of the Whitetail Bubba hunters not shoot a broadside deer while it's head is down feeding, instructing the shooter to "wait until he puts his head up".

As mentioned in my earlier post, I've shot a couple of Elk in their beds. Thought it was a huge accomplishment to take them in their own bedroom which I would assume is the place they know like no other, and would immediately take notice of anything out of the ordinary.

Try as I may, I cannot think of any specific reason why someone would consider it "unethical" to shoot a sleeping animal, an animal laying down, or an animal with its head down and feeding. Can anyone explain to me what the specific objection to shooting under these conditions are? Obviously, these three situations appear to be same issue but in differing degrees of objection. But I just cannot figure out what the objection is.

Someone please fill me in.

quote:

Try as I may, I cannot think of any specific reason why someone would consider it "unethical" to shoot a sleeping animal, an animal laying down, or an animal with its head down and feeding. Can anyone explain to me what the specific objection to shooting under these conditions are?

I can't find any moral dilemma in shooting a sleeping animal either. What it indicates to me is that you as a hunter have done a fantabulous job of stalking.

I guess if shooting a sleeping animal is a sin then shooting one that is unaware is also? How about shooting one that isn't looking at you? I shot my Mt Goat this year as it was daydreaming on a rock and had no idea I was there. It was simply staring off into space looking the opposite direction from where I was. The first time it became aware of my presence was when it took a 140gr .270 bullet through the heart. I consider that to be an excellent stalk as I spotted that goat from over 3 miles away and sneaked to within 71 yards of it.

Is that morally incorrect? Should I have yelled first to make it aware of my presence possibly sending it off into a bounding escape making my shot more difficult?

On several occasions while sneaking around after various critters I've slipped up on a sleeping or resting coyote or a deer or an elk and once a big old grizzly heck in Tanzania once we very nearly stepped on a sleeping buffalo cow in thick brush. All that tells me is that I am doing something right. If I had been hunting those particular animals and wanted to I could have have and would have shot any one of them.

I just not seeing a problem here.

PS

Dave,

I am not really sore at you, but I would have liked to talk to Andrew and gotten the definitive answer on the whole daily fee screw up thing.

As it sits now I won't hunt ever again hunt with either the PH in question or Chifuti as there is a lack of trust concerning both from my stand point. I have no doubt that Chifuti is a quality outfit and that you offer excellent hunting in an area I'd like to hunt so that really is a shame for both of us. I loose a hunting opportunity and you guys have lost a customer over a very simple and easily answered issue.

With that in mind and since I'm not apt to get a final answer. If an able bodied representative of Chifuti would stand for a mild bitch slapping or possibly a fairly rough dutch rubbing I'd call it equal. Fair is fair.

Of course this last paragraph ^^^^^ is meant as a joke but it sure would put a lot of lawyers out of business if things were handled like we did it back in Jr. High School.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Dear DSC
Yes, Tim and I were at Ivan's DSC meeting last month. The largest crowd to ever attend a monthly DSC meeting, and most said the best seminar to date. Ivan was on his game and his passion comes through ! Also, yes we put together much of the Convention footage in association with Kim Thomas here in Dallas. They are pretty strong and get the blood pumping ! Next time, come by and say hi.

Dave you are right! Ivan really did a good job. I prefer the message of conservation and promoting the youth that he is delivering these days. DSC is very fortunate to have such an ambassador.

Jason

I don't get the lynch mob mentality about shooting a sleeping lion either. As others have stated, its got to be vastly more difficult to sneak up on a dozing lion who is still very much aware of his surroundings than shooting a lion who is distracted and had his head deep in a carcass or bait. Try to sneak up on bedded whitetail, mule deer or elk and your odds aren't good. Now ambush them on a trail or a feeding area and you got a much better chance. Personally if I had a lot of dough and ever had the chance to pursue a lion (actually no desire... and not a lot of money) I would want a walk, track and stalk hunt. Odds may not be good but sitting over a bait while waiting in a blind ain't my cup of tea.

Wow-this is one interesting post. I too can't say I've learned when it is morally correct to shoot an animal. I used to think I knew the answer. I guess the buck I stalked and killed in his bed in 1988 with a recurve bow is now a no go according to some. Oops. What I have learned in 6 months of AR membership is read here and keep your mouth shut for the most part. I am going to join the you will never see a trip report posted by me group. Hell-after reading posts calling a gunsmith an "asshole" for not being willing to share his techniques on an open forum what can be gained. It is a sad indictment to the internet that in 10 years of various forum participation the two best things I have learned, other than to keep your mouth shut, which I should be doing, is how to change a fuel filter on a Duramax diesel and how to fix the auto defrost on my refrigerator. Good for you on the lion by the way. I would have killed him in a second.

Regards,

Don

Guys, when I wrote my post earlier this evening asking about what the objection is to shooting a sleeping animal, one that is laying down, or just has it's head down and feeding, I was not trying to shut down the conversation, get the last word, or belittle anyone's opinion. Seriously.

I would really like for someone who objects to shooting in those situations to convey the reasoning behind those ethical convictions. As said, I've tried to examine the possible reasons but just can't come up with the slightest bit of logic for that position. Obviously, others are considering something that I'm overlooking. Can someone please fill me in?


Thanks.

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Larry,

I think JBrown was trying to figure out what you would do, not what you wouldn't

I believe JBrown wanted to know if you would attempt to alter the situation, or just move on.

Larry
DCS was spot on. What I would like to know is what you would have done after you found the lion asleep: would you have waited for him to wake-up naturally, would you have attempted to wake him, or would you have said "forget it" and headed back to the truck?

I guess most people would prefer to avoid a confrontation with a wounded lion, much preferring a swift clean kill...taking every advantage presented to best achieve such result.
Then again the hunting stories by Hemingway,Capstick and the like, that fuel some peoples minds encourage some sort of drama-confrontation.
Hemingway was disappointed when he shot a lion and it just died,and thats all.
I gather most PHs would be very happy with such a result.

It would be much more personally satisfying to track a lion and find him awake or asleep,...than by sitting in a blind over a bait.

If your willing to take advantage of him using his state of hunger/essential need for food , may as well take advantage of his thirst/essential need of H20... and shoot him at a water hole...

I will take the absolutist position. There is not a SINGLE person here who, when ACTUALLY faced with the situation, would fail to shoot a big black maned lion that he has tracked for the better part of a day just because that cat was sleeping. Add the fact that there might be $50K on the line if you go home empty and the reality becomes even more cemented. If by some miracle someone did actually say "No, let's wait for him to wake up or throw a rock at him to rouse him from his slumber", he had probably better be prepared to be beaten senseless by his PH. Nature rarely gives you a gift (and let's face it, you earned that gift by stalking well enough to get up to a completely unaware feline) so you'd best take those gifts when they come!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
There is not a SINGLE person here who, when ACTUALLY faced with the situation, would fail to shoot a big black maned lion that he has tracked for the better part of a day just because that cat was sleeping.

I disagree. I believe Larry would pass on that shot.

I would like to know if he would head back to the truck or wait for it to wake-up.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
There is not a SINGLE person here who, when ACTUALLY faced with the situation, would fail to shoot a big black maned lion that he has tracked for the better part of a day just because that cat was sleeping.

I disagree. I believe Larry would pass on that shot.

I would like to know if he would head back to the truck or wait for it to wake-up.

I agree Jason. I think Larry would pass also. I just want to know the logic behind the objection.

Jason - I don't deal is speculation or hypotheticals. As fairgame posted on page 1: "If my client was Larry then we would have simply done it a different way". Don't know what that way would be, just know it wouldn't be the one aired in the program in question.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
There is not a SINGLE person here who, when ACTUALLY faced with the situation, would fail to shoot a big black maned lion that he has tracked for the better part of a day just because that cat was sleeping.

I disagree. I believe Larry would pass on that shot.

I would like to know if he would head back to the truck or wait for it to wake-up.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I did not watch the show but was always taught not to risk shots at cats lying prone as the margin for error is too great.

The PH must have done well to get his client into a shooting position and felt the risk was worth the trophy.

If my client was Larry then we would have simply done it a different way.

I don't feel the same as Larry about shooting sleeping animals and can think of at least three sleeping or at least prone animals I've shot DRT. On the other hand Andrew makes two excellent points here. The first being when shooting an animals lying down you need to be doubly careful of shot placement and second if the client is not comfortable with any shot "We would simply have done it differently" is the mark of an excellent PH. It's the client's safari. Period! I would have drilled the lion or attempted to in his bed but I also expect that there is a good chance the lion could have been awakened gently and when it stood there would have been time to shoot him.

Mark