Gents:
This subject has been hashed over on AR many times prior but are things different with the black rhino auction? First off, I think the auction is fine and the money well spent. Logic will never be a part of the thinking of the antis. With that in mind, let me ask this: why are the animals in South Africa treated differently as to ethical hunting? Examples:

Plains game hunting in SA is accepted my most on AR and the hunting community. I make that statement based on the feedback and posts from members.

Buffalo hunting seems to be split about 50-50 as to an acceptable example of ethical and fair chase hunting in SA. It seems to depend on the size of the property.

Lion hunting seems to be universally looked down upon by posters here on AR as "put and take" hunting. (Do I have the term correct?) Lion are raised on game farms and released prior to the hunt which may take place on 500 or 10,000 acres, surrounded by a high fence. I've never understood the logic where lion hunting is frowned upon and shooting a kudu under the same circumstances seems to be accepted.

Black rhino are now in the news. Every state in the union carried the auction on the network evening news broadcasts. Many I know of never heard of DSC prior to this. The rhino auction and hunt is accepted my most AR viewers, myself included, based on the posts. But why is this accepted when it is the same circumstance as the lion? The rhino is not wild, I'm confident to say, was probably raised in an enclosure to be kept as safe as possible from poachers, and is picked out of a herd to be shot.

We have many different definitions of hunting as to what is ethical and fair. I like to hunt with a vintage double. Some like long range shots with a high speed magnum. The new Smart Rifles (as seen at DSC) use a computer to make shots to 1200 yards. So, what is a solid definition of hunting (to me it is the spot, the stalk, and the kill)? Is the rhino more noble than a lion? By most definitions the rhino scenario will not be a "hunt" but rather a pick out and shoot. Enlighten me, friends.

What say you all? Why?
Cheers, mates.
Cal

As far as the lion goes I think here on AR most troubling issues occur when they are displayed as a traditional wild lion hunt with the same dangers, which I think we can agree this is not the case.

I expect the rhino was, in fact, wild, if closely monitored (and in Namibia, by the way, not SA).

It may have been translocated from somewhere else originally and kept in a boma for awhile. I'd be interested in its history, more out of curiousity than anything else if anyone knows what it is.

As for SA Lion, if I remember correctly, virtually every lion farm in SA is 1,000ha or less, nowhere near 10,000 hectares.

Good article and I agree with Brian.
I also have to say, I would never shoot rhino in todays world.
I think PG and DG differs where DG has the aura of tough and dangerous hunt so when you hunt DG in smaller enclosures and not in the wild, it takes the excitement away from it, but that is just me ( one man's opinion )

I don't see a difference between PG and DG hunting behind a fence as long as the property is of suffecient size. As to size, this is another area that can be argued about to no end. I, myself, try to hunt areas that are a minimum of 30K acres. This maybe way to small for some but to each their own.

My only real issue is when hunters pass off trophies as free range when they obviously are not. If you choose to hunt a high fence area be upfront and stand by your choice don't try and be deceitful after the fact.

I've been on high fence hunts as well as free range and have enjoyed both. Personally, I'm just happy to be out hunting.

Which is really what hunting is all about IMHO…

Personally, is there any hunting behind a fence where the outcome is unknown?

The difference with plains game is the enclosure is quite large. But even then, I consider anything behind a fence more a shoot than a hunt. It certainly isn't fair chase.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Personally, is there any hunting behind a fence where the outcome is unknown?

The difference with plains game is the enclosure is quite large. But even then, I consider anything behind a fence more a shoot than a hunt. It certainly isn't fair chase.

Try it some time.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Personally, is there any hunting behind a fence where the outcome is unknown?

The difference with plains game is the enclosure is quite large. But even then, I consider anything behind a fence more a shoot than a hunt. It certainly isn't fair chase.

When you are in Africa you have the game surrounded by water-whats the difference between that and a fence?

Cal,

I could be wrong but my impression is this Black Rhino is not in a fenced enclosure. Not sure if it's in Pilanesburg or not but that is open game park/reserve.

Sure you or someone else, could say it's not "sporting" because the individual animal is targeted but how many times have you read on here about someone shooting a particular large Elephant that has been seen and identified previous to the hunters arrival.

I saw WILD Black Rhino in Etosha Park in 2010 prior to my hunt. These critters do not know what a fence is.

I once had a past Alaskan resident well known to you tell me while I was shooting at Birchwood that he would never hunt Cape Buffalo because he has seen them in the wild and they are "just like cattle". His experience is RSA.

Here's my thought!! Is the hunt legal - Yes!! Would I do it or wish to do it? That's an individual choice be it a wold Lion or RSA Lion.

This auction was for a good cause. Corey is now paying the price for being the high bidder. He should know loud and clear the hunting community is behind him completely.

It's absurd anyone on here would bring up his financial upbringing or any other personal information. WTF is the difference?

The hunt is Legal and a complete win for Namibia anti poaching and a unique experience for Corey who has paid well for the honor and is now continuing to pay more than money.

Hi Jim:
I agree with all you write. My point was the question of game being on unequal terms as to how it is hunted. I know this rhino is in Namibia and also a few are legally hunted in SA. Of course I don't know of the winner of the auction and it is too bad his name got out to the public. I think emotion of the game sought makes its perception different in the same way it does with those that hunt the game. At the Dallas show last week I watched videos with the same actions accepted by some PHs while condemned if another well known PH does the same thing. I'm just trying to figure the logic of it all.
See you at our May shoot at Birchwood? My Watson .500 will be there and I hope to see your new L&A.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

If I did this right 1000 hectares is just under 4 sq. miles (3.8).. So are you saying that hunting something inside 3.8 sq. miles of wilderness is just a walk in the park?
I know of some west Texas ranches where you are lucky to see a deer you know is in the area even inside a half section.
We shot a deer last year on my 8.5 sq. mile ranch that was never seen by any of us on the ranch nor caught on any of the 13 game cameras that go full time at feeders, water holes etc. We were plenty happy as he scored a bit over 162 B&C. Where he had been for all the time was anyone's guess. When he was seen and shot he was just walking down a pasture road taking a Sunday stroll.
We also had a 170 B&C buck coming to a feeder in a one sq. mile low fence pasture. Saw him three times visual sight and several times on camera but have no idea where he is to date. Poof..he is gone.
If I get you on some west Texas ranches I know you will be lucky to find a critter in a 1/2 section thanks to all the Mesquite, cedar and pear. Some you have hell riding a horse through.
I reckon hunting anything has to do if you feel comfortable doing it. If you don't see a rope burn on its leg......sic em if you have the urge.
I know there is also the spat about is it proper to shoot from the safari car or not? I don't think I want to tell some old west Texas rancher how unethical he is for letting the air out of a deer after rolling down the window in his pickup. Most I know just think the pickup is a good 1500 pound shooting rest. Beats having to leave the heater in the truck in order to walk out some supposed ethical distance to brace on a Mesquite limb that is moving in the ever present west Texas wind and let fly.
All this makes for great debate but I doubt it is going to change how any of us hunt.
Better tomorrows to all!

I've decided we have enough anti-hunters being critical of us (or threatening to kill someone for hunting) so if it is legal and I don't care to participate due to--name the reason--I'm going to keep my damn mouth shut and leave other hunters alone. Some of you need to give your fellow hunters a break and get off your high horses.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
By most definitions the rhino scenario will not be a "hunt" but rather a pick out and shoot.

Where did you come up with that?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Personally, is there any hunting behind a fence where the outcome is unknown?

YES! I've hunted buffalo in RSA on fenced properties twice where I was unsuccessful on two different ranches, one roughly 10,000 acres, the other 11,000 acres. The first in 2008, the second in 2009. Although we saw and stalked buff nearly every day (8 days on the first, 7 days on the second), I didn't get a shot either time.

I've also hunted buff on a fenced ranch in 2006. That one was about 8,000 acres. Yes I got my buff on that one, on day 5. We saw them on day 1, had an opportunity but my rifle malfunctioned. Got it fixed then couldn't find the buff at all, not a single sighting on day 2-4.

Was it the same as hunting buff in the wild in Zim? No, it wasn't. Was it sporting? Hell yes it was. Would I do it again, yea, if the price is 1/2 the price of the wild hunt like it was on those last two trips. But that hasn't been the case lately.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
By most definitions the rhino scenario will not be a "hunt" but rather a pick out and shoot.

Where did you come up with that?

Hi Matt:
I came up with that by the reports the rhino has already been determined before the auction that it was to be taken to of the herd.
Cheers,
Cal

Good point, Cal.

My opinions, for what they are worth.

Plains game- to be honest, if its behind a big enough fence its still free range. If its not big enough, in general, it is still hunting in that generally the animal can get away enough that you target a different animal. While certainly one can get a small enough enclosure to make it a shoot rather than a hunt, it seems with the exception of whitetail here in the US, generally the herd herbivores don't express much individuality and we don't get too worked up about them and how they are killed (after all if they are not shot they go to a slaughterhouse.) As long as they are killed cleanly and ethically I could care less how someone shoots them, and given their lack of "personality" it seems most others don't either.

Buffalo, it seems that they are big enough and dangerous enough that they are not typically kept in small enclosures, and most SA hunts for them do involve some element of fair chase. Again, if the fence is big enough, its free range (sorry, the Save and Bubye are free range and wild in my eyes...) and again, as long as they are not being tortured to death, I could care less what someone else does.

Lion, I think the biggest complaint is that these cats are so expensive to keep that they are released shortly before shooting and in some cases are still drugged when shot. Again, while it is not my cup of tea, they are livestock, and as long as they are reasonably humanely killed, who cares? The fact that so many either feel the need to lie about how they shot it, or outfitters feel that they need to misrepresent what it is shows that many want to act the "great white hunter" but still, that is between them and their conscience. I honestly feel the antis will find any lion take repugnant and be able to propagandize it, so I really think the folks that feel the SA canned hunting is going to hurt our chances long term are incorrect; it just doesn't matter to them, and the more division in our ranks the worse. The only caveat I have about the canned shooting is that I really don't care for the marketing of these animals as a "last minute trouble lion" or other such hogwash. It is what it is, and if you would not shoot it as a game farm animal, they should not try and get you to suspend belief. The blatant lying is the only real issue I have with the TV shows as well. The only time I hunted SA, they did not try and hide what it was, and I was not interested. end of story there. Some here think that because its not the high dollar wild hunt, the guy hunting should not be allowed to do it.

As far as Rhino go, really, other than intensively managed herds, whether private land or wild sanctuaries, there is no rhino hunting. There is no way to make someone think that it was anything other than what it was, so no one gets their shorts in a knot that someone else "didn't work for their trophy" or whatever causes the fence/no fence argument. I think we all realize that if not for the private animals and hunting, Rhino would be functionally extinct already.

As I have said before on this type of thread, while I prefer to hunt wild areas and have been blessed with the means to do so, I really could care less if someone else doesn't want to either put that much work in or pay the costs. They are having fun or whatever their reason for hunting is. I also could care less if someone puts a farmed animal in a record book- they know what they did, and my animals don't require beating someone else's for my validation.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

See you at our May shoot at Birchwood? My Watson .500 will be there and I hope to see your new L&A .
Cheers, mate.
Cal

That would be Joyce's Lawn & Alder.

quote:

Originally posted by DonW28:
I've decided we have enough anti-hunters being critical of us (or threatening to kill someone for hunting) so if it is legal and I don't care to participate due to--name the reason--I'm going to keep my damn mouth shut and leave other hunters alone. Some of you need to give your fellow hunters a break and get off your high horses.

Don

+1

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

Hi Matt:
I came up with that by the reports the rhino has already been determined before the auction that it was to be taken to of the herd.
Cheers,
Cal

The reports are incorrect. Apparently it is only one (any one) of five old rhinos that have been marked for the hunting program. The antis gave 'it' a name and determined that it was only one animal - and the media ran with that. These five are running with lots of other rhino in heavy brush. The outcome of the hunt is not predetermined. It is not an animal in a game park/farm and they will have to hunt to find one of those five. How that is done exactly I do not know.

Free range and fair chase equals hunting for me.

IMHO, that can be done on a ranch, but only on very big and well managed ones.

Not just any, and sure as hell not most.

I read these comments about "wild" vs "raised" "free range" vs "enclosed". Most against the raised and enclosed probably never done the raised and enclosed property and never hunted in RSA. My understanding raised lions are more dangerous then wild lions - no fear of humans. A darted (when it could be done) hunt is more difficult hunt than a rifle hunt. Plains game is routinely traded between properties in RSA. JMO

What is the difference in fenced hunting in Africa and the Monster White-tailed deer that are offered to hunters in high fence areas on this side of the pond?

The monster White-tailed deer are a cash crop. They charge what good buff/plains game hunt would be 20-30K.
No one says a word here? It's just business!

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I read these comments about "wild" vs "raised" "free range" vs "enclosed". Most against the raised and enclosed probably never done the raised and enclosed property and never hunted in RSA. My understanding raised lions are more dangerous then wild lions - no fear of humans. A darted (when it could be done) hunt is more difficult hunt than a rifle hunt. Plains game is routinely traded between properties in RSA. JMO

I have never hunted Lion in any form, but this seems the same to me......

Hunting a wild Lion in my understanding, they are usually hunted from blinds over bait and the "captive bred" hunts are usually tracking hunts....

I don't know much about Lion hunting except what I've read here and in books....but it seems to me that the very same types that decry us Texicans for sitting over a feeder waiting for a deer to shoot have no qualms over sitting over a bait waiting for a Lion to come out so they can shoot it.

I would "think" that a hunt for a "captive bred" that didn't have quite the fear of humans, and a tracking hunt to boot "could" get a bit hairier than sitting a blind waiting for old Panthera Leo.......

If the property IS large enough the only gaurantee I see, is that you KNOW a shootable Lion is there........somewhere.......

But what do I know????

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I read these comments about "wild" vs "raised" "free range" vs "enclosed". Most against the raised and enclosed probably never done the raised and enclosed property and never hunted in RSA. My understanding raised lions are more dangerous then wild lions - no fear of humans. A darted (when it could be done) hunt is more difficult hunt than a rifle hunt. Plains game is routinely traded between properties in RSA. JMO

I have never hunted Lion in any form, but this seems the same to me......

Hunting a wild Lion in my understanding, they are usually hunted from blinds over bait and the "captive bred" hunts are usually tracking hunts....

I don't know much about Lion hunting except what I've read here and in books....but it seems to me that the very same types that decry us Texicans for sitting over a feeder waiting for a deer to shoot have no qualms over sitting over a bait waiting for a Lion to come out so they can shoot it.

I would "think" that a hunt for a "captive bred" that didn't have quite the fear of humans, and a tracking hunt to boot "could" get a bit hairier than sitting a blind waiting for old Panthera Leo.......

If the property IS large enough the only gaurantee I see, is that you KNOW a shootable Lion is there........somewhere.......

But what do I know????

This is not strictly true of hunting lions.

On some occasions, we have shot lions at baits.

On other occasions, we have followed lions for hours.

For me at least, just KNOWING that I am hunting in enclosed fence, tends to take a bit of the excitement off.

I have no problems hunting plains game in a fence.

But, I just do not feel like hunting buffalo or lion under the same conditions.

JTEX:


I have never hunted Lion in any form, but this seems the same to me......

Hunting a wild Lion in my understanding, they are usually hunted from blinds over bait and the "captive bred" hunts are usually tracking hunts.... the tracking time is seldom enough to break a sweat because the outfitter already knows where the quarry is lying up after having gorged itself on that very familiar "kudu kill" of the same day.

I don't know much about Lion hunting except what I've read here and in books....have no qualms over sitting over a bait waiting for a Lion to come out so they can shoot it. It does not necessarily mean that by sitting over a bait offers a guarantee that the lion which shows up (if it shows at all) is a shooter. The ones offered on a canned hunt are in fact a guarantee and you can have all the photos you want in advance and even the skull measurements - Oh yes, AND the exact date of birth so there's no BS about pointed teeth, pink noses or hairy elbows.

I would "think" that a hunt for a "captive bred" that didn't have quite the fear of humans, and a tracking hunt to boot "could" get a bit hairier than sitting a blind waiting for old Panthera Leo....... Any lion hunt involving a lion, be it hand raised or naturally wild, if wounded will give you a run for your money but that kind of reaction can be had from your pet dog as well.

If the property IS large enough the only gaurantee I see, is that you KNOW a shootable Lion is there........somewhere....... Hardly somewhere considering most are offered on 5 day hunts but are usually concluded on the first or second day as determined by the outfitter. Ever heard of the client who bought a canned lion hunt going home without his lion?

But what do I know???? ....... You answered that with your opening sentence.

CRButler came up with a very valid resume' and in particular:

"Lion, I think the biggest complaint is that these cats are so expensive to keep that they are released shortly before shooting and in some cases are still drugged when shot. Again, while it is not my cup of tea, they are livestock, and as long as they are reasonably humanely killed, who cares? The fact that so many either feel the need to lie about how they shot it, or outfitters feel that they need to misrepresent what it is shows that many want to act the "great white hunter" but still, that is between them and their conscience."

I know a group of 8 guys who went to SA and shot 13 lions in a week. One guy shot 3. He told me man it was hard I had to hunt for 3.5 hours before I shot my 2nd lion! The first one took about 45 minutes.

How can one compare that to a wild lion hunt?

To each his own but to my mind its not the real thing, like fake Rolexes, diamonds and boobs.

The size of the area hunted is not as much of a factor as the familiarity of the animals to man. Who would want to shoot a buff or lion in a national park where they stand and look at you as you drive up in the car? It would be just like shooting a bear or elk in Yellowstone. Not very sporting. Likewise if you are hunting PG and the owner of the place regularly drives through the herds, you are not going to have much of a hunt.
So IMHO the degree of "tameness" the animals have determines the sport of the hunt. In RSA we visited the White Lion project where they breed of all things white lions. You can drive around in the large enclosures right up to the lions and they lay there on their backs like big kitty cats. I cannot imagine hunting one of those offering anything I would consider sport.
Not knocking anything anybody else wants to do but it is not my cup o' tea.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
JTEX:

Hunting a wild Lion in my understanding, they are usually hunted from blinds over bait and the "captive bred" hunts are usually tracking hunts.... the tracking time is seldom enough to break a sweat because the outfitter already knows where the quarry is lying up after having gorged itself on that very familiar "kudu kill" of the same day.

Good grief Sir. Such complete and utter crap has surely not been flung onto any computer screen of a hunting forum yet! Sometimes it's just better not to say anything for fear of people thinking you are utterly clueless than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Thank you Cal for bringing this up as I have been confused over this issue for quite some time. As far as I'm concerned a canned hunt is a hunt where the animal does not have a fair chance of escaping, ie in a small 2 acre pen being shot from the back of a truck, or shooting a doped lion. This has happened in South Africa and should be eradicated at all cost, however, there are numerous South African outfitters who do the right thing in the correct manner.

Before addressing the issues you raised (Mr Pappas) a few remarks about some of the previous postings:
1. lion hunting properties in South Africa need to be a minimum of 1 000 ha (2 471 acres) before F&W issue a permit to make the hunt legal. The properties I hunt lion on are at the smallest 2 500 ha (6 177 acres) and the largest is 20 000 ha (49 421 acres) and these hunts are as challenging as the next hunt if done on foot and hunting the lion with a sporting chance by staying on foot.
2. Pilanesberg is a National Park in South Africa, 220 sq miles in extent and is high fenced for two reasons - to keep the animals in and people out as far as is possible.
3. Kruger Park is 5 million acres in extent and all along the western boundary it's high fenced. Does this mean the animals inside are on a fenced property?
4. I have guided buffalo hunts on a 5 000 ha (12 355 acre) high fence property where the buffalo was harvested on day 5 of a 7-day hunt because that's when we got close enough for a proper shot and never saw a fence in all 5 days of walking. Then some years later on the same property doing another hunt we were unsuccessful on a 5 day hunt for buffalo having had a few opportunities but no good shot opportunity was presented so I advised against taking any shots. That hunter has not returned and may well not return but we gave it our best and walked many hours every day.

Getting back to the issues in hand:
Why is it that the mere thought of a high fence will put a hunter off hunting that property? On 10 000 acres (15,6 sq miles) if you are walking how many times will you even see a fence? How many days will you be walking to cover all the ground? In the Limpopo bushveld if a kudu is seen at 50 yards and is spooked, this kudu will run and after the first 50 yards away from you you will not even see it. Did that kudu have a fair chance and opportunity of getting away? Of course it did and has the chance of dying of old age on that property.

I was quoted in the Afrikaans Sunday newspaper as to asking the same question about the Melissa Bachmann lion hunt: why the outcry about hunting a single lion when many more kudu are hunted yet nobody says a word about that? If the same number of wild lions were hunted not only in South Africa but in all of Africa, how many lions will still be in the wild? Along with human encroachment into wild areas eliminating natural habitat how much longer will wild lions be able to sustain themselves? These are the reasons why I am in favor of hunting captive bred lions on foot. I distance myself from canned lion hunting and the hunting of doped lions.

Rhino hunting is like hunting giraffe only more dangerous. Closest I've been to a rhino that we hunted was about 10 yards. Two well placed shots from the hunter and the animal went down in a matter of seconds. Of course it could have been completely different but whether that particular rhino was in a 2 acre pen or on a completely free roaming area of 1 000 sq miles, the hunt would have been equally unchallenging and unsatisfying.

Smart rifles will bring a whole new dimension to long range hunting. Will this be accepted by all? Of course not because we all have our opinions and are rightly entitled to them.

I still do not see the light when a hunter says I refuse to hunt on a high fence property. That's fine I respect that point of view and will even defend your right to say it, but when animals have equal opportunity of making good their escape, what’s the difference between hunting a high fence property and an unfenced area?

reddy375, how may TV shows have you seen - shot in Tz - the party is driving down a 2 track and spot a buffalo stop and walk maybe 50 yds and kill the buffalo. I have seen many.

I have hunted behind fences...for springbok and blesbok, if I remember correctly. I also remember it not being much of a challenge - not because the property was too small, but there were animals all over. There were no prey animals - the only thing killing the animals in the enclosure were humans.

Todd: sounds like you hunt was a hunt. But as others have said, how many buy these SA lion hunts and come home empty handed?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I read these comments about "wild" vs "raised" "free range" vs "enclosed". Most against the raised and enclosed probably never done the raised and enclosed property and never hunted in RSA. My understanding raised lions are more dangerous then wild lions - no fear of humans. A darted (when it could be done) hunt is more difficult hunt than a rifle hunt. Plains game is routinely traded between properties in RSA. JMO

I have never hunted Lion in any form, but this seems the same to me......

Hunting a wild Lion in my understanding, they are usually hunted from blinds over bait and the "captive bred" hunts are usually tracking hunts....

I don't know much about Lion hunting except what I've read here and in books....but it seems to me that the very same types that decry us Texicans for sitting over a feeder waiting for a deer to shoot have no qualms over sitting over a bait waiting for a Lion to come out so they can shoot it.

I would "think" that a hunt for a "captive bred" that didn't have quite the fear of humans, and a tracking hunt to boot "could" get a bit hairier than sitting a blind waiting for old Panthera Leo.......

If the property IS large enough the only gaurantee I see, is that you KNOW a shootable Lion is there........somewhere.......

But what do I know????

JTEX,

Watch from 3:30 to 5:40 and tell me you would feel the same if that was a Whitetail coming to pay you a visit.

During my wild Lion hunt. We sat on bait, we tracked a pair, and we ended shooting one in the open, no where near bait, simply by responding to his call.

I have no problem with RSA Lion hunting. It's legal and it's fine with me.....for someone else.

BTW, don't care if you shoot deer over a feeder either. All tastes the same out of the freezer.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Plains Game v. buffalo v. lion v. rhino in SA. All are not equal. Why?

Cal

I think it comes down to this: success rates on plains game and buffalo is near 100% regardless of whether they are hunted behind a fence or in the wild. This being the case, what difference does it make if the hunter killed it behind a fence or not?

Rhino: almost no wild rhino are hunted(Cory's may be an exception) so if a guy kills a rhino you accept that is was a pen raised animal. Not my cup-of-tea but who am I to judge?

Lion: that is easy! Wild lion are fairly low success rate hunts that usually involve a lot of close encounters with females and non trophy males before the hunter has a shot at a mature lion. The lion in SA, in comparison to the wild lion, is canned no matter how big the enclosure he is released into. My reasoning is this: regardless of whether you drive up to a drugged lion and shoot it or spend a week tracking a lion around a 20,000ha enclosure one thing remains the same in these canned hunts, the lion was put there for you to shoot and the difficulty of the hunt is dictated by the ranch owner.

The canned lion that has been had fed chunks of meat his whole life and is not going to be able to survive by hunting, so he is going to be tethered to "kills" that the land owner leaves out for him. How hard will it be to find him?

As others have said: how often do these canned lion hunters come home empty handed?

I have no problem with high fence hunts.
Put&take would be never an option for me but I really don't get the problem some have with high fenced in general.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I have hunted behind fences...for springbok and blesbok, if I remember correctly. I also remember it not being much of a challenge - not because the property was too small, but there were animals all over. There were no prey animals - the only thing killing the animals in the enclosure were humans.

Todd: sounds like you hunt was a hunt. But as others have said, how many buy these SA lion hunts and come home empty handed?

None that I know of.

I've actually done one of the RSA lion hunts. Did it on my first safari before I had learned much about safari and Africa today. Of course, I knew it was a high fenced captive bred lion, but I didn't really know the extent of how much BS is involved. Even knowing it was captive bred, the outfitter attempted to convince me I'd be taking a lion that was much better than the "price I had selected" because it was a problem cat attempting to kill other lions, which would eventually cost him aplenty if successful. Total BS. That property had a claimed 10,000 acres, but we drove around 8,000 acres or so a few times, looking for tracks and eating up much of the day. Then when the PH saw I was getting bored, we drove to a completely different part of the ranch and "Whala!" lion tracks! The cat heard the vehicle, came out onto the road and waked toward the truck. We got off and walked toward him. All the while the PH is giving me a line of how this cat is sizing us up for the kill. At this point, it was getting a bit much and I looked at him like Really ... C'on man, REALLY! He knocked it off at that point. What I didn't realize at the time however is that the reason the cat was walking toward the truck is that he was hungry. Not to kill and eat us, but to have a chicken thrown his way. The whole thing was a farce, over in less than a day, could have been completed in 30 minutes if driven directly to where the cat was let out. The cat didn't appear to be drugged however, and had absolutely NO fear of man. He never attempted to flee but just walked along slowly, every once in awhile, looking at us and growling at bit. Probably wondering why we hadn't broken out the Colonel Sanders just yet!

I've also done a true wild hunt for lion in the Zambezi Valley. I extended my trip from 10 to 14 days, then from 14 to 18 days. We went through 3 tuskless, 3 bufflo, two kudu cows, and a warthog in bait attempting to play the chess game. Putting out bait IS NOT a guarantee of scoring on a wild lion! I took that lion right before dark on day 15! ONE HELL OF A GREAT EXPERIENCE!

Do I have anything against the guys shooting a lion in RSA. Nope. It's your dime. What I do have an issue with is the BS way in which many are marketed. I can't for the life of me, think of two more diametrically opposite hunting experiences than a true wild lion hunt in the wild places as compared to the RSA ranch shooting of lion. One is just about the top of the heap concerning hunting, the other leaves you with a feeling of WTF did I just do?

BTW, I've also darted white rhino in RSA. I put it right up there with RSA lion hunting in terms of excitement and achievement. However, I can't bash it too hard as I realize some of those hunts are more difficult than others, mainly depending on the terrain. Mine was in an open area, again on my first safari, sold as an add on, and thinking at the time it would be my one and only trip to Africa. Took all of about an hour to find the animal and fire the dart. But, and this is a big BUT, I believe the darting and hunting of rhino today, on ranches as in RSA, have led to the successful conservation of these animals. Without that stream of dollars from hunters, there would be no real incentive for the ranchers to preserve them. From that standpoint, I'm all for the way rhino hunts are conducted today, I just have no interest in doing it again personally.

But buffalo is a completely different story on a fenced ranch. Or, at least, it can be. If the ranch is large enough and the buffalo haven't been habitualized to being artificially fed. My experience with buffalo on RSA fenced ranches is that they become exceptionally wild. Where true wild buff in Zim will sometimes look at you trying to figure out what you are and what's going on, the buff I've encountered on the RSA ranches will not. They run first and ask questions later. That's a turn off to some but not me. I like their wariness. They tend to understand that nothing good comes from the sound of that bakie, unlike the reaction RSA lion have whereby the truck means "Chicken Dinner"!

As I stated, I'll hunt buffalo in RSA on a fenced ranch again, given that they are not habitualized, not artificially fed, the price is right, and the ranch is large enough. But I'll never do another RSA lion hunt, regardless of how "sporting" of a chance the cat is given by some of the better outfitters. The rhino hunting is different IMO. It serves to truly conserve and preserve the species and although it isn't much of a hunting experience, it has a very valid mission. I suppose something similar could be said about the RSA lions, but currently, there's just too much BS associated with it.

This thread does remind of a hunt I did in Scotland for hill stags. I was promised no fences. So first day out, right away, we see a stag behind a fence.

"Shoot," the stalker whispers.

I gulped hard. I couldn't believe I got screwed. Plus, it wasn't very big. I hemmed and hawed...

"Look, if you don't want to shoot it, that is fine," he said, "but let me borrow your rifle so I can shoot it. That damn thing jumped that fence; it isn't supposed to be in there."

My face brightened. When he told me he wouldn't charge me, the deal was sealed and I whacked it.

The fenced areas was for seedlings and young trees and was intended to keep deer out.

My 2 cents. Much of the fenced plains game on large well managed properties was born on the property or lived there a long time and is wild. Fenced lions almost always we're raised in a pen and fed by man and as Todd posted, it shows. As for buffalo I have seen it both ways. My SA buff was the hardest hunt of the 3 I have taken. I have also drove by some with ear tags in them that acted like cattle. personally I don't mind high fence as long as it is done correctly on large properties and not a put take situation. I hunt deer on an island in upper MI. I have had people say it wasn't sporting because it is and island. One jerk even told me that all I had to do was herd the deer to the beach and shoot them. This island is 35000 acres of cedar swamp! High fence is a huge gray area and we all have to make up our own minds. If it doesn't feel right, then don't do it. When you are alone at night in your trophy room you know how those animals were taken. It's your conscience.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
This thread does remind of a hunt I did in Scotland for hill stags. I was promised no fences. So first day out, right away, we see a stag behind a fence.

"Shoot," the stalker whispers.

I gulped hard. I couldn't believe I got screwed. Plus, it wasn't very big. I hemmed and hawed...

"Look, if you don't want to shoot it, that is fine," he said, "but let me borrow your rifle so I can shoot it. That damn thing jumped that fence; it isn't supposed to be in there."

My face brightened. When he told me he wouldn't charge me, the deal was sealed and I whacked it.

The fenced areas was for seedlings and young trees and was intended to keep deer out.

Love it!! Got a great visual image of your face.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I've actually done one of the RSA lion hunts. Did it on my first safari before I had learned much about safari and Africa today. Of course, I knew it was a high fenced captive bred lion, but I didn't really know the extent of how much BS is involved. Even knowing it was captive bred, the outfitter attempted to convince me I'd be taking a lion that was much better than the "price I had selected" because it was a problem cat attempting to kill other lions, which would eventually cost him aplenty if successful. Total BS. That property had a claimed 10,000 acres, but we drove around 8,000 acres or so a few times, looking for tracks and eating up much of the day. Then when the PH saw I was getting bored, we drove to a completely different part of the ranch and "Whala!" lion tracks! The cat heard the vehicle, came out onto the road and waked toward the truck. We got off and walked toward him. All the while the PH is giving me a line of how this cat is sizing us up for the kill. At this point, it was getting a bit much and I looked at him like Really ... C'on man, REALLY! He knocked it off at that point. What I didn't realize at the time however is that the reason the cat was walking toward the truck is that he was hungry. Not to kill and eat us, but to have a chicken thrown his way. The whole thing was a farce, over in less than a day, could have been completed in 30 minutes if driven directly to where the cat was let out. The cat didn't appear to be drugged however, and had absolutely NO fear of man. He never attempted to flee but just walked along slowly, every once in awhile, looking at us and growling at bit. Probably wondering why we hadn't broken out the Colonel Sanders just yet!

Todd, thanks for sharing your experience with the RSA lion "hunt". I think your summary sums up this issue quite nicely. The fence matters a helluva lot less than whether the experience was contrived or not.

In my younger days I worked as a fishing guide and recall that on one trip I had these guys trying to become outdoors celebrities wanting to film the fishing trip. They couldn't catch anything and wanted to take all the largemouth I caught and re-hook them to their lure and release them, wait a few minutes then reel in the fish I caught 10 minutes earlier! This was one of the worst trips of all (even worse than the guys wanting to pay me to let them claim they caught everything on the trip). If it looks fake or feels fake then it is likely some sort of contrived bullshit and not a real outdoors experience!

To paraprhrase a popular US country song - "No fences, no BS, no problems "