Just musing about this. How many of you would consider taking a bolt-action rifle, e.g., a 1903 Springfield in .30-06 with Lyman receiver sight, as a plains game rifle for Africa?
I understand open sights on a heavy DG double, but this would be for all-around hunting.

If you are hunting with a scope and there is a lion or a zebra in the shade behind some grass or branches and you can see him with your scope on 8 power,when he moves his head an inch or two above the branch so he can see you and you know that is all you need and can put him down easily,is that hunting? When you use open sights you need to get closer because you can't see him and then you need to get him in the open such that a good shot presents itself.All this makes the hunt more of a hunt,requires more skill and is therefore more exciting.I think shooting with open sights is also becoming more popular.I am starting to see more and more shooters with open sight rifles at the range.Just this past weekend one guy was there with an old 303 British cartridge rifle with a short barrel and detachable mag.He was using a flip up rear sight the kind you see on some Mausers.He looked like he was having fun shooting about a hundred or so rds and I enjoyed watching.

Shootaway:

Nothing wrong with iron sights on a PG rifle but one needs to have a good eye which after a certain age, most folks need lenses.
Say what you like, but a target over 75 yards will be almost fully obliterated by the bead and the shot can strike the target almost anywhere resulting in an unnecessarily wounded animal which is in contrast with the objectives of sport hunting, hence the reason for having a scoped rifle: clarity, individual eye focus and precision, but which while not guaranteeing a clean kill, greatly reduces the possibility of one.

Bear in mind that no self respecting antelope will offer many opportunities at shots under 120 yds.

P.S. 30-06 on Lion?.....will do the job but contravening the laws on minimum caliber requirements for DG unless it is one of those 'special lions'

Certainly, an iron-sighted rifle isn't going to be a whole lot of use beyond 150 yards from rest. But IF THE SHOOTER IS UP TO IT the game taken with such a rifle might feel a bit more "earned," in the same way that a fish caught on a fly or game taken with a longbow is a bit more earned ...

I don't know where you guys get your knowledge from but open sights from a rest are easy at 200yds and I bet further.

There is a big difference in iron sights. The OP asked about a reciever mounted aperture sight and that is a far more precise aiming aperatus than is generally understood by those who have never used them, or who have only tried the factory barrel mounted open sights. A bolt mounted aperture sight is even more precise, and I have used them to good effect out to nearly 200 yds on smaller animals. I have blade, not bead foresights, and with poi on top of the blade, an animal past 75yds is in no way "nearly obliterated". I am also past a certain age and have a bifocal need but still have no difficulty with my aperture sights. I would have no hesitation in hunting a longed for trophy animal with my bolt mounted aperture sighted light rifle(7x57) or my reciever mounted aperture sighted heavy rifle(404J). I do have a scope in qd rings for the light rifle that is carried but to date I have not found a need to slip it on during a hunt. Have kills on moving animals out to 185yds so far.
This is my heavy at 55 yds during testing before the sights were bought to poi.


This was a 185yd kill and there was a very good aimpoint on the animal. Admittadly not Africa but hunted and used all the same.


Von Gruff.

Von Gruff: A .404 and a 7X57 are all you need, indeed. In my case it is a peep-sighted Springfield and a scoped Model 70 in .375, although I would rather have the .404 as the medium-heavy.
I would have no hesitation to join an informal target match to 600 yards with the Springfield.

Another thing the 'scope only for everything' class of shooters miss out on the enhanced handling qualities of the iron sighted rifles, how well they balance, carry and quickly they come up on target. They also forget the Bisley shoots and many others which were all shot with irons. I would have no hesitation in taking your '06 (and 375)as is.

Von Gruff.

I might do as you propose, but only if I were willing to accept a significant handicap.

Beautiful rifle Von Gruff. More pictures of the rear sight would be appreciated!

Personally, while my shots with optics may be more precise, they also make my shots slower and I have made some poor decisions that I might not have had I used irons.

Remember when a 4x scope was considered perfect for open country and a 6x was strictly for varminters? Quality glass and coatings, as well as better FOV and other specs changed all that. And not necessarily for the better. Lots of new hunters will sacrifice scope quality in favor of higher mag and never really understand what they have lost.

On topic - I'd wager that a man who understands his irons and knows his game well is probably a happier hunter if he has the eyes necessary for such. I may need to find a lefty rifle like Von Gruffs and test that theory.

Using open sights on plains game may have a romantic flair to it but it is not a wise move.

The guys that supposedly can shoot a gnat's ass off at a thousand yards may chime in but even if true it ain't going to happen. Running after a wart hog or impala and shooting accurately at 100 or 200 yards is highly unlikely.

But even more importantly, when "one" screws up the shot and wounds some animal things go to crap. It is racing off like its ass is on fire and now by some miracle "one" is able to shoot more precisely than when the animal was standing still for the first, and wounding, shot. Plezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Maybe the hunter can get every wounded animal to charge so as to cut down on the distance of follow-ups shots, kinda like MS.

Will: You have far more experience than I in these matters. But if a hunter was willing to live within the limitations of his skill and his equipment, I don't think it would be unwise to hunt with an iron-sighted rifle. It would simply be a choice. On my only trip to Africa -- to Namibia in 2007 -- many of our shots at kudu, zebra and gemsbok came at well under 100 yards. Some came at archery distances.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Will: You have far more experience than I in these matters. But if a hunter was willing to live within the limitations of his skill and his equipment, I don't think it would be unwise to hunt with an iron-sighted rifle. It would simply be a choice. On my only trip to Africa -- to Namibia in 2007 -- many of our shots at kudu, zebra and gemsbok came at well under 100 yards. Some came at archery distances.

Bill,

If you can realistically limit yourself to short range shots, then there should be no problems.

I've screwed up brain shots on elephants at 25 yards! It ain't hard to do! And I'll have to live with that forever.

Shoot 'em close and have fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Will: You have far more experience than I in these matters. But if a hunter was willing to live within the limitations of his skill and his equipment, I don't think it would be unwise to hunt with an iron-sighted rifle. It would simply be a choice. On my only trip to Africa -- to Namibia in 2007 -- many of our shots at kudu, zebra and gemsbok came at well under 100 yards. Some came at archery distances.

Those were some pretty "tame" animals if you ask me and strongly suggests having been hunted in a fenced area which is a totally different kettle of fish when hunting "free-range"game.
However, Will is pretty honest with his advice - unwise it is, but if one is happy with the idea and willing to accept parting with considerable amounts of trophy fees for game wounded and lost, its their money to spend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Gruff:

This is my heavy at 55 yds during testing before the sights were bought to poi.


At 55 yds the grouping looks pretty good and for DG would be more than acceptable. It would have been more appropriate showing the final results once POI had been achieved.

Well, I might add this to topic:

I hunted "the most dangerous game" for 20+ years with open sights out to 460 meters. Granted, I was shooting for "center of mass" but it still worked just fine as the targest were considerably smaller than plains game (and bipeds to boot!).

I'm planning on going to Zim in 2012 and taking a Weatherby .375 H&H with peep sights on it. I will probably use QD scope mounts if a long shot is required but, as previously posted, I think getting as close as possible adds to the skill of the hunt. I can still sail a pair of .30-06 double rifle rounds through the bulls eye standing with open sights so I think I should do just fine.

just my tuppence worth...

quote:

Originally posted by ChetNC:
Beautiful rifle Von Gruff. More pictures of the rear sight would be appreciated!

This is the bolt mounted aperture with bases for a qd scope on my 7x57. Below is reciever mounted unit on 404J




Von Gruff.

Shootaway got it right (he has obviously been there done that) - as anyone who used open sights in the field will tell you that it isn't the rifle or sights that are problem - sometimes it may be the light, however 90% African hunts are during bright light therefore no problem there as well. If you have done your share on the range, you know damn right where your bullets land and a decent ghost sights can keep up with a 4x mag scope for at least 100m. I've hunted with open sights exclusively here and in Africa for 3 years now and the main problem is seeing your quarry good enough to "shoot to kill" not just "spray and pray and pay for a cow".



Not that one standing behind this one - the one in the back to the right



I am sure there is a bull inthere...somewhere



Eish...you mean that one?

This is how it represents in the field and the live ones are usualy constantly moving... With PH hot on your neck "Shoot, shoot..." on a quary of Roan or Nyala $ heavy type...you are wellcome

You can't shoot at something you don't see!

It is all about passing many opportunities and try to hang on the good ones - hard but highly rewarding

I think it's all in how you were taught to shoot and hunt. I was trained to shoot with peep sights in the Marine Corps. And shooting BPCR at long range with iron sights. Still a lot of long range matches held where iron sights are the rule. There faster in close quarters and give up nothiing in the long range, It's just a matter fo taking the time to learn to use them. I recently bought a scope for my big gun (458 Lott) but not sure that I want to use it. Would prefer to find a good peep sight for it.

I think it mostly boils down to your vision and experience using irons. I've always preferred irons. However, age has taken a toll on my vision and I rely more on scopes now to make a confident shot.

Iron sights work in Africa, and work well if you know how to use them. I have taken 18 animals in three trips to RSA shooting a Sharps with iron sights. The shots ranged from 49 to 527 yards measured by a Leica CRF 1200 rangefinder. Six of the animals were taken in excess of 300 yards, and four of the others were over 150.

The key is to know HOW to use the iron sights. A bead front sight is worthless. FWIW, I just turned 67 years old, and wear glasses. You just have to learn how to use your eyes and your sights. I would personally be handicapped with a scope.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Iron sights work in Africa, and work well if you know how to use them. I have taken 18 animals in three trips to RSA shooting a Sharps with iron sights. The shots ranged from 49 to 527 yards measured by a Leica CRF 1200 rangefinder. Six of the animals were taken in excess of 300 yards, and four of the others were over 150.

The key is to know HOW to use the iron sights. A bead front sight is worthless. FWIW, I just turned 67 years old, and wear glasses. You just have to learn how to use your eyes and your sights. I would personally be handicapped with a scope.

sharpsguy,why would you want to use a Sharps in africa and shoot game at 500yds?

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Shootaway got it right (he has obviously been there done that) - as anyone who used open sights in the field will tell you that it isn't the rifle or sights that are problem - sometimes it may be the light, however 90% African hunts are during bright light therefore no problem there as well. If you have done your share on the range, you know damn right where your bullets land and a decent ghost sights can keep up with a 4x mag scope for at least 100m. I've hunted with open sights exclusively here and in Africa for 3 years now and the main problem is seeing your quarry good enough to "shoot to kill" not just "spray and pray and pay for a cow".



Not that one standing behind this one - the one in the back to the right



I am sure there is a bull inthere...somewhere



Eish...you mean that one?

This is how it represents in the field and the live ones are usualy constantly moving... With PH hot on your neck "Shoot, shoot..." on a quary of Roan or Nyala $ heavy type...you are wellcome

You can't shoot at something you don't see!

It is all about passing many opportunities and try to hang on the good ones - hard but highly rewarding

Thanks mouse-I added you to my buddies list because you know how to hunt!

Fujo: You're drawing some highly unwarranted conclusions. I have no idea what you are up to, but I certainly don't hunt tame plains game, and the fences, if any, were old, broken down cattle fences. Thanks to our genius native tracker, we stalked within 25 years of my brother's mountain zebra after having spotted it, from a koppje, and dead reconed to it in high wind in mopane scrub that also contained gemsbok that we hoped would not blow our stalk. His gemsbok, also spotted from a koppje and stalked, was taken at about 87 yards, and his kudu not much farther. You are somewhat of a newcomer here, and I advise you to think a moment before sharing your opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:

The key is to know HOW to use the iron sights. A bead front sight is worthless. FWIW, I just turned 67 years old, and wear glasses. You just have to learn how to use your eyes and your sights. I would personally be handicapped with a scope.

Sharpsguy....you are one rare bird...I'm 68 and have shot open sights for 55 yrs, BUT I would not attempt any game shot over 50yds under field conditions.
Optics make for clean kills,period.

Von Gruff: My word that is a lovely bolt-mounted peep. Where on earth did you find it?

Mouse: Points very well taken about being able to actually see the bloody game you want to shoot. When I first took the field in Namibia, I could not believe how far away my PH Johann Veldsmann, and his tracker Tjokie could spot game, and without their binocs. Slowly I learned to start looking another 200 yards beyond where I was kind of giving up, and I, too, started seeing at least the small dark spots they had already identified as shootable/not shootable.

shootaway--I would ask you why not take the shot if you are comfortable with it? I don't hunt with a bow and arrow or a spear,and don't have to limit myself to shots of 20 yards or so. I have a rifle--several, in fact--that enable me to kill at that distance if I feel it is necessary to take the animal I want.

I have developed the knowledge and skill set that allows me to hit at those ranges, and I practice REGULARLY so that I can continue to do it. Not all of my shots are at 500 yards. I do prefer them closer. But 200 to 400 yards with the iron sighted Sharps is a shot I expect to make 100% of the time.

The bison hunters of the American West worked regularly at 200 to 600 yards with iron sights and there were several thousand men doing it. They made their living killing bison at these ranges with iron sights, and I decided to figure out how they did it, and succeeded. I am not doing anything with my rifle in Africa today that the hide hunters of the American West didn't do with theirs 130 years ago.

Men today can't shoot up to that standard in the game fields with iron sights because they never learned how, and don't shoot enough to stay sharp.

I have most of this on dvd, and several posters here have seen it. Don't judge what someone else can do based on your own substandard expectations.

I am not questioning if or not you could make the shot at 500yds-that's easy and anyone can do it with a little practice and a rest.Shooting from a rest is easy and doesn't require that much practice.I am just curiuos as to why you don't hunt africa with a bolt action or double rifle and leave the sharps for what it was meant to do-shoot bison in the american west.As for getting closer to the game,I just find that much more enjoyable and can't see why you don't.

quote:

Nothing wrong with iron sights on a PG rifle but one needs to have a good eye which after a certain age, most folks need lenses.
Say what you like, but a target over 75 yards will be almost fully obliterated by the bead and the shot can strike the target almost anywhere resulting in an unnecessarily wounded animal which is in contrast with the objectives of sport hunting, hence the reason for having a scoped rifle: clarity, individual eye focus and precision, but which while not guaranteeing a clean kill, greatly reduces the possibility of one.

I see some big advantages with iron sights:

1. You don't suffer trigger panic as much as the sight picture is much more steady.
2. The sights are more rugged and less likely to be "bumped".
3. Iron sights reduce the temptation to take hail mary shots
4. You can shoot faster in most situations

Scopes do help in very low light, as well as for people who have lousy eyesight. But these are exceptional circumstances, and you would be surprised how well you can sight with a peep or ghost ring vs. using open sights. And you don't put the "Bead" over the vitals, you sight at 12 o clock on the bead or post, a method that is surprisingly precise. We could regularly put 8/10 bullets into a 12" circle at 500 yards with battle sights on an FNFAL (which at best is a 2moa rifle) in the wind.

Finally, in Africa (with the exception of parts of Namibia and the E Cape) you are shooting within 75 yards 75% of the time. If you can't hit an orange with an iron-sighted rifle off a tripod at that range, then you have no business with a rifle, bring a camera.

Von Gruff, that's a beautiful rifle. Have you been able to get the billy-goat smell off it?

Bill: I might have considered it about 15 years or so ago, but not now with my aged eyes! With Russell's comments, I hope that my condition in not being able to shoot 75 yards with iron sights and explode an orange doesn't disqualify me from a ninth Safari! It's all that damn reading that I do as a lawyer that's made me nearly blind! (That and age!)

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Fujo: You're drawing some highly unwarranted conclusions. I have no idea what you are up to, but I certainly don't hunt tame plains game, and the fences, if any, were old, broken down cattle fences. Thanks to our genius native tracker, we stalked within 25 years of my brother's mountain zebra after having spotted it, from a koppje, and dead reconed to it in high wind in mopane scrub that also contained gemsbok that we hoped would not blow our stalk. His gemsbok, also spotted from a koppje and stalked, was taken at about 87 yards, and his kudu not much farther. You are somewhat of a newcomer here, and I advise you to think a moment before sharing your opinions.

Bill:
Hunting Namibia and RSA is commonly associated with game farms and they are fenced - you may or may not see the fences.
In such areas the game will be relatively tame as they have regular contact with humans compared to an unfenced, natural and wild environment.
That one might choose to hunt in such areas is certainly of no concern to most of us - simply makes the hunt a lot easier and certainly offers the ideal conditions to go and mess about with open, peep and ghost ring sights.

The sight fitted on V. Gruff's rifle looks very much like the original Rigby patent which is dove-tailed into the cocking piece and adjusts to 300yds, if memory serves me right.

And finally, yes I am a newcomer and an armchair cowboy but am still entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

"Open sights on a DG/PG hunt is limited to a handful of people for varying reasons and not recommendable as the chosen option to hunt African game under wild conditions".

As responsible adults we are free to decide and ultimately accept the "trophy fee that went wrong"

I admire sharpsguy for his shooting with iron sights, not just at targets but at game.

I learned with a scope, my first rifle was a Rem 700 in 243 that came with a Redfield 3x9. It was my only gun and I used it for everything. I shot rabbits on the run, shot the heads off of grouse, shot prairie dogs, crows, javelina, deer, black bear and elk. It's all practice, you can pick up running game in a scope quickly if it's what you're used to. I stepped up to a 270 in 1973 and thought I had a cannon lol ... gave it to my son last year.

Now all I have is my scoped 500 Jeff so those Colorado rabbits, deer and elk better be damn scared until I make it to Alaska and Africa.



Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Von Gruff: My word that is a lovely bolt-mounted peep. Where on earth did you find it?

A member of this forum and a gentleman to deal with. He makes a few at a time as need dictates.

rusty42marlin@yahoo.com

Von Gruff.

Von Gruff has got it in one. Hunting with open sights is not white mans magic, nor is it the unethical proposal that someone was making out. If you cant make the shot ethically regardless of what kind of sights you have, you pass it up and move.
As for the "front bead obscuring the target" over 70 yards...that means someones not shooting with a bead front sight properly.

I have a Husqvarna .30/06 with flip over rear sight leaves 100/200/300 and also a Husky 8x57 with a rear receiver peep with a post front sight set up the same as Von Gruffs .404.
Making shots in open country out to 300 yards is not much harder than using a scope really, for both you just need a decent rest. Under 100 yards there is no problem.
The rifles are easier to handle, lighter than it was with a scope and a joy to carry in hard country compared to a scoped rifle with that humungous "thing" attached to the top. But if you shoot out of treestands or blinds all the time it wouldnt matter.
You also dont have to worry about checking zero's, rain, or dust or wondering if the scope is still alright after it takes a knock.
Most rifles fit better with the iron sights as well. (Except for Ruger no. 1's. You cant get low enough on the stock to align the factory open sights !)
The drawback, as I think about it idly, is that when you use a scope, you know where shot the animal precisely - I do anyway. When you use open sights you dont have that knowledge so much immediately after the shot goes off.
I have hunted with open sights with old .303's, .30/30's, a 6.5x55 CZ550 and some other things probably.
If your shootign off sticks or with a halfway decent rest in broken country you are good out to 300 yards depending on individual circumstances of thr shot.

You are not where near as "handicapped" as some people here are making out. In fat considering that most shots are considerably shorter shots than this, I wouldnt even use that word at all.
If your eyes need lenses - wear the lenses!

As I ruminate quietly on this subject I am inclined to say that shooting with open sights takes a little bit of imagination. A lot of people who have never used them on game I am sure look at them and think - how can you be precise enough with such coarse looking knobs of metal at a target way over there?
You have to believe. Try it. You might be suprised.

Mr Von Gruff - where are situated? I am going across to Mavora Lakes hopefully to find a chamois end of next week, it would be a pleasure to call on you at some stage.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Mr Von Gruff - where are situated? I am going across to Mavora Lakes hopefully to find a chamois end of next week, it would be a pleasure to call on you at some stage.

PM inbound

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

quote:

Nothing wrong with iron sights on a PG rifle but one needs to have a good eye which after a certain age, most folks need lenses.
Say what you like, but a target over 75 yards will be almost fully obliterated by the bead and the shot can strike the target almost anywhere resulting in an unnecessarily wounded animal which is in contrast with the objectives of sport hunting, hence the reason for having a scoped rifle: clarity, individual eye focus and precision, but which while not guaranteeing a clean kill, greatly reduces the possibility of one.

I see some big advantages with iron sights:

1. You don't suffer trigger panic as much as the sight picture is much more steady.
2. The sights are more rugged and less likely to be "bumped".
3. Iron sights reduce the temptation to take hail mary shots
4. You can shoot faster in most situations

Scopes do help in very low light, as well as for people who have lousy eyesight. But these are exceptional circumstances, and you would be surprised how well you can sight with a peep or ghost ring vs. using open sights. And you don't put the "Bead" over the vitals, you sight at 12 o clock on the bead or post, a method that is surprisingly precise. We could regularly put 8/10 bullets into a 12" circle at 500 yards with battle sights on an FNFAL (which at best is a 2moa rifle) in the wind.

Finally, in Africa (with the exception of parts of Namibia and the E Cape) you are shooting within 75 yards 75% of the time. If you can't hit an orange with an iron-sighted rifle off a tripod at that range, then you have no business with a rifle, bring a camera.

Eight out of ten into 12 inches at 500 is impressive with that rifle even in still air. The ones I used were area weapons at anything over 300yards in real life. Minute of platoon was about it.

Always surprises me how truly talented marksmen can coax a seemingly impossible performance from a crap weapon.

Open sight hunting is enjoyable but be prepared to miss out on opportunity's.

Maybe you guys are confusing yards with feet, or maybe centimeters?

Bill,

I can't think of any reason why an open-sighted rifle can't be great fun. As a matter of fact, I own and use an open-sighted .318 on a critter or two here in SA every year and it's fantastic to stalk up close to something big and put it down with a single shot from the old rifle. I have to agree, though, that hunting with open sights require patience (passing up some opportunities is a given, as far as I'm concerned) and lots and lots of practise. For me, telescopes definitely make life a lot easier and I don't shoot much further than 100 metres with my .318 as a self-imposed limit.

I won't hesitate to bring an open-sighted rifle to Africa but I'll bring along a scoped rifle as well. With open sights you will most certainly have to pass up shots that would otherwise have been doable and on a safari with limited time that may end up costing you.

Just my opinion.