With 'The Punki Incident' fresh in our minds, lets learn something.

How do you shoot DG off someone ? What should you do if you are the object of the DG's aggression ?
Is there an accepted procedure ?
Should only the PH shoot ?
Should you shoot if its the PH under the DG ?

If I'm the one under said DG, everyone but Adrook and Daman has my permission to shoot.

Close enough you are absolutely certain you won't shoot the person being attacked, and that the exiting bullet will not be likely to hit anyone. Obviously, people are much more likely to survive contact with a leopard than with the others, which are more capable of inflicting fatal injuries within fractions of seconds.
IMO the most likely persons to be under a leopard are the tracker of the PH. If so, the other is probably in very close proximity trying to assist.

The video with Wes Hixon and PH Peter Chipman would be a good example.

In the Jaws of Simba?

I discuss this with all hunting partners and PHs. The fear is having the bullet pass through the animal and strike the person.

DG is not all alike, but for a Lion or Leopard hit, I decided many years ago that what I would do and what I ask others to do for me, is to place the muzzle against the cat while holding the rifle in a horizontal position and shoot the damn thing off me. Those hit by a cat are gonna be fighting for their life and trying to get away, while the cat is trying to get your head or neck into its' jaws and tear open your stomach with its' claws. Hunting partners and PH should be in immediate proximity. A kneeling shot may work if there is some distance involved. Remember, a male Lion weighs 450-550 lbs. while a Leopard will be more like 120-150 lbs.

Buff, Ele and Hippo present a different set of circumstances and trying for a brain shot is necessary, and even if missed may dissuade the animal and drive it away from the victim.

The indisputable issue is the path of the bullet; shooting down into an animal that is on top of a victim is extremely dangerous.

As in anything having to do with DG hunting, I am an absolute believer in pre-planning and visualizing a given course of action under specific circumstances. The more this is done the more likely your reactions to a critical incident will serve you well.

I have often thought about this. My thoughts are that there is no one rule other than be sure of your target as every incident will be different.

If I am ever put in such a position I can only hope I have the alertness and courage to step forward and safely sort thing out.

Heym 440/400

Missed your post while writing my reply. "In the Jaws of Simba" is a very interesting video with a lot of lessons to be considered; not the least of which is when do you pull the trigger on a Lion.

I hunted with Peter Chipman in Zambia only a few months after the incident and before the video was out. He is a great guy and was quite candid about the incident - the scars on his knee were quite evident. Peter was very fortunate in that either he or another shooter actually broke the Lions jaw while it was in charge before it hit Peter. This prevented the Lion from closing its jaws on his knee; it simply sank its upper canines into his knee. Peter's injury would have been much more severe had the Lions jaw been functional.

These things happen incredibly fast and cats get tunnel vision and do not deviate from the route to the selected victim. Seconds count!

Hopefully one has never to be put in that position... The most important thing is a cool head in the emergency... Make the shot...
You have to know ahead of time of what to do.. Lion run up to him and shoot him in the side of the body slight upward shot or back of the head behind ear...Leopard is another story, chui bounces around if trackeres dogmen are close. This maybe a contact shot...
Elephant there are not many left alive if he closes in real tight... But I was told run into the open to get a clear shot...
Buf is a whole different story...Lots of adrenelin brain or spine only...
Now one also has to remember bolt or double gun... In the Chipman video, he could not reload it fast enough when the lion was on top of them...
The last or only shot must be held till one cannot miss...
A good AR friend told me, "Mike let him keep coming the bullseye only gets bigger..."

In the Johann Calitz video the lion picked out one guy and multiple shots did not stop him... But the Ph did with shot at around 10feet, big bullseye...

Mike

I've only talked with one person who was mauled by a leopard, but have seen the terrible results of many bear maulings. I've also seen the results of high powered rifle bullets on a lot of game. Animal attacks can have horrendus debilitating effects such as blindness, loss of hearing, loss of limbs, and disfigurement. However, if survival is the preferred outcome from a mauling I personally believe you have a significantly better chance of survival from an animal mauling/attack (except elephant and maybe rhino) than from a high powered rifle shot to the torso.

My job requires me to be trained for bear encounters and how to handle guns in attack situations. One thing that we do within each crew is discuss how animal attacks will be handled. Each person is also asked how they feel about having an animal shot off of them. Some really want bears shot off of them and others don't. Personally, I tell my crew not to shoot a bear off of me unless they have a very clear shot.

The recent leopard mauling incident was a terrible accident that happened because a wrong assumption was made in the split second available to take the shot. Thankfully, misunderstanding of the situation didn't cost any lives and it looks like all will recover completely.

The police report made it clear that in a perfect world she would have handled that situation differently. She said: "I know better than to fire when a leopard is mauling someone, I would not have shot had I known that there was a person even close to the leopard." I agree that is the way to handle such a situation. I certainly don't want to be responsible for killing someone with a rifle who otherwise is more than likely to survive the attack. I commend Miss Boddington for making a decision that was the right one for the circumstances as she understood them.

My first instincts would be...

1)--to drop to the kneeling position enabling myself to execute a low horizontal shot--

2--I'd aim for the spine/top ridge, hoping for a complete pass through which shatters the backbone resulting in instant death---

I'd be leary of any low body shot to a cat in this instance. On leopards I've found the bullet never exits upon the same angle/trajectory that which it entered. I'd be worried it could exit downward, even if enters broadside. I've shot four of them and there's just something about the contorted nature and muscle tone of that animal that causes the bullet to become terribly misdirected.

On lions I've had better luck. I've taken three---in the near shoulder and out the backside shoulder. Still, even if I was shooting a lion off adrook, I go for a high spine shot, for the above stated reason. It's instant death.

Regarding the Johan video mentioned above, you'll recall some of the hunters were kneeling which obviously gave them the advantage reducing the angle of shot.

In the interests of full disclosure I hunted with that group the following year, and shot two insurance bullets into a wounded lion while I was standing up. It was however, fatally wounded with the first shot and we weren't anticipating a charge.

By no means am I insinuating Brittany acted inappropriately. I'm proud of her. She held her ground and showed great bravery, in a close encounter from the dangerous game animal that PH'S dread most.

Moja

I have shot only one leopard
so let me just state openly ---I don't know shit about shooting DG off of someone.
More importantly, I hope I never need to either.
That said;
It makes sense if you are going to take the shot, you better be close(as in as close as possible) and be level or slightly below the animal .
a standing shot would likely increase the chances of hitting the person being mauled due to the angle.

but that is just my opinion and as I said--I don't profess to be an expert-----just a redneck

I hope none of us ever end up in the horrible situation Brittany went through-
bet wishes to those involved------Brittany can back me on DG hunts any time.

By no means an expert on DG hunting here, but here are some thoughts:

Your distance to the victim and the attacker will be one of the most important factors you'll have to consider. It'll probably be the first judgement you'll have to make.

Can you make a high percentage shot from where you stand?

Can you close the distance? How long will it take?

What angle do you have on your target? If you move laterally, or go low, will your line of sight be clearer, or more cluttered?

Any obstacles between you and the target?

Where is the PH? Other personnel?

Bolt gun, or double with a quick second shot capabiliy?

Is the victim being eviscerated or is his foot the object of the attack?

Etc, etc, etc.

Lots to consider. Hopefully, when you find yourself in close quarters with DG, you'll have given a little thought to some of these concepts.

CQB and similar tactical training dictates closing the gap to the point where you can make solid contact with the muzzle of your weapon on the "bad guy". Place the muzzle where you can put the round into the base of the skull, the spine or other area that would result in a CNS hit, while being mindful of the path of your round. Much, much easier said than done!!!!!!!

With DG---especially a cat---it's going to be a whole different ball game.

Hope I'm never on either end of the equation. But if I'm under the animal, I hope someone shoots the bloody thing off me, preferably at point blank in the ear, but not if that would take too long to get there. And how long is too long?

Quote from Brittany Boddington statement-
"Both men were wearing full camouflage from head to toe and in the tall grass they were completely invisible to me."

A very important lesson from this may be how important it is to be visible when hunting.

This is how my friend Hagen lost his leg. He had a leopard on him and they shot it off. The 375 went through the leopard and took his leg below the knee. You would never know it the way he gets around. He was at SCI Detroit just 2 weeks after it happened. These guys are tough. That said if I was going to do it I would try to get point blank. I think if it is urgent enough to do this, (yes I know that sounds stupid} I would try to stick my gun right up against the animal. Either way it is a no win situation. The leopard might kill the person being mauled or you might.

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:
I have shot only one leopard
so let me just state openly ---I don't know shit about shooting DG off of someone.
More importantly, I hope I never need to either.
That said;
It makes sense if you are going to take the shot, you better be close(as in as close as possible) and be level or slightly below the animal .
a standing shot would likely increase the chances of hitting the person being mauled due to the angle.

but that is just my opinion and as I said--I don't profess to be an expert-----just a redneck

I hope none of us ever end up in the horrible situation Brittany went through-
bet wishes to those involved------Brittany can back me on DG hunts any time.

I'm not having a shot at you but we need to remember it was Far, far worse for Punki.

Edit: Pun not intended.

It comes down to no one knows how you will react in a charge situation... No one has any right to comment on what he or she should have done... If you were not party to, second hand info is in admissible...
One hopes he or she has the courage to stand ones ground or run into the fray and help out...

Mike

I can only talk about leopard hunts because we do have lots of experience on this topic.
We ALWAYS have a long talk before the hunt where we discuss different situations with the hunter.
The first thing we say is NEVER shoot when the leopard is on top of somebody and Britany Would not have shot if she knew that Punki was under the cat.
Rifles WILL kill you but the chance that a leopard will is very small. He will hurt you but not kill you.
In case of a leopard mauling just wait the cat will jump of and give you an clear shot to kill him or run closer and shoot him at an angle that everybody is clear.
PLEASE NEVER SHOOT WHEN THE CAT IS ON SOMEONE YOU WILL KILL SOMEBODY!!!
With other dangerous game there must be a different set of rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
The video with Wes Hixon and PH Peter Chipman would be a good example.

In the Jaws of Simba?

The above is absolutely true! That film should be shown in camp to anyone going after lion before he goes into the weeds with one! The killing shot was applied perfectly in that instance, with a side shot to the lion's head, from 6 inches, by the client!

One thing I would like to mention here is, For that follow-up if all three men had been armed with double rifles, it is my opinion the lion would have never gotten to Peter in the first place. The lion took three shot before it was on Peter. If they had had doubles the lion would have, in all likelyhood, taken six shots in the same amount of time. You will notice that shortly after Peter was hit by that lion and he couldn't reload fast enough, he bought himself a Merkel 470NE double rifle!

I don't see what all the fuss is about. I'd just use my toothpick (or if I'm really annoyed) a pocket knife.


Dutch

If it happens, you will have a lot of decisions to make in a very short time frame. Your first decision is whether to do anything at all. If your PH is there and is not he one being mauled then it may better to let him handle it. He is much better trained to handle it esp. if he has been through the Zim PH training course. In fact he may have already have done it in the past. If he is not here or is the one being mauled, then your action may be appropriate but remember that a bullet is capable of doing much more damage quicker than any leopard. I would be very leery of using the head shot on lion or leopard in this case. Usually the leopard is chewing on the victim which means that the cats brain will be very close to the victim. In many cases the victim will have their hand in the cats mouth trying to slow the chewing to less critical body parts. In the famous case of the lioness killing and partially eating the Game Ranger at Sapi Pan in Hwange Park another Ranger that was present shot off most of his son's hand that was in the lionesses mouth with a 243. He can be excused because he was shooting blind because the lioness had scalped him earlier. In another well documented case a Zim Ph of mine, Gomez Adams, was under a lioness with his head in her mouth when a game scout shot the lioness in the head with a 375. The bullet impacted the ground within inches of his head. Lucky guy! I think I would go for a shot taken at a low angle through the shoulders to impact the spine or just where the neck meets the shoulders.

465

I just have to reinforce Corne's post above. I know when my son David hunted with him, this was clearly communicated to everyone involved. We had the same discussion on my leopard hunt with both Nic and Corne, and everyone understood the rules ( the tracker and dog handlers were also armed). I'm sure they do it extensively for every client.

If you have watched the Tracks Across Africa shows, several weeks back you would have seen Nic have the exact same wording for Wayne Holt on that show - do not shoot if the cat is on top of someone. Just too dangerous to the unfortunate one getting scratched up.

Corne - You can count on some support for Punki from us too, let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
How do you shoot DG off someone ?

Carefully and thoughtfully of course; that is ,as thoughtfully and carefully as you can in 2.75 seconds,--- or not.

That is: everyone reacts differently under stress, none of us know until we are there.
Shoot or don't shoot based upon your training preparation and instinct; and pray your choice works out.

Brings us back to preparedness, situational awareness and appropriate gun handling being incumbent on us if we choose to hunt DG.

Discussion of roles and a plan of action prior to the hunt are necessary to create the mindset for hopefully an eventuality that does not occur.

Then the chips will fall as they may with good or bad results in spite of our training,preparation, skill,intent or judgment.

All accidents are avoidable , I was taught when I was flying; but sometimes only if you choose not to fly.

I think Retreever has the best answer.

No one really knows what they would do until put in the situation.

Prior training sounds good, but how much is anyone going to remember when entering brush with a wounded animal lurking inside at who knows what distance or in what amounr of wounded.

If I am not mistaken, the cat in this situation was Not wounded, so that throwed things in a whole different direction for all involved.

Also, keep in mind the amount of adrenalin flowing thru all in the hunting party, and how each of them perceived what was happening, depending on where they were standing in relation to the actual point where the attack was taking place.

We all want to think that we would know how to re-act, but in reality, when the shit starts hitting the fan, people tend to go on auto pilot and hope for the best. JMO, and no I ain't never hunted DG.

quote:

Discussion of roles and a plan of action prior to the hunt are necessary to create the mindset for hopefully an eventuality that does not occur.

Finally, someone said it! Who shoots? Under what circumstances?
Peter.

You can also get hurt here at home...Here's a fellow and his son that were on the wrong end of things when bird hunting here in Georgia.

No one knows what they would do until they are there. Every situation is different. Just because you did one thing on a different occasion does not mean that is what you would do in a different situation.

Also, "DG" is a somewhat overbroad term as well. I've never hunted cats, but I think that would be a whole different program in terms of timing.

With buffalo, for example, in my limited experience, it took a few moments for a situation to develope. On one occasion, I was ready to shoot and probably would have, but I waited for the PH and an immature animal turned before any shot was necessary. With a cat, I don't think I could have paused the second or two that allowed the animal to change its mind.

I have a few simple rules when tracking a wounded Leopard or when waiting for a Leopard to brake that is bayed by dogs.

- If you want to carry a loaded weapon, you must be in the front line !
- If you are not sure if you can make a stand, you stay on the truck !
- Anyone must be allowed to defend himself and kill it when charged ! ( remains the client's trophy )
- If you are not in the front line, you do not shoot !
- If you do not have the balls or are not in the position to put the muzzle against the cat pointing away from the victim, you do not shoot !

quote:

If you want to carry a loaded weapon, you must be in the front line !

Thank you Helgaard!
Peter.

Many years ago, Nassos Roussos shot a wounded lion off of another PH. The lion had the man by the arm and was really doing a number on it. Nassos pushed his .375 H&H into the lions mouth past the arm and pulled the trigger. Instant dead cat. In another instance about a year later, he shot one off of a client. Actually the lion was in the air about to land on the client. The lion did in fact land on the client but was already dead. The client was very scratched up but it was from the acacia he landed in...not the lions claws. Those Danakil desert cats were tough. Still are.

Rich Elliott

About the only rule to this is that there are no rules. One must treat each occasion on it's individual circumstance.

Sure you can and indeed should, make rules for follow ups but once the shit hits the fan, the rules go out the windoow and those that are there just have to deal with it.

Steve: That's a true assessment. I wanna add, there are more "don'ts" as rules to abide by, than there are "do's" that must be adhered to. This thread helps in that so many variables are put out there on the discussion table. But even in the heat of the battle, I can see myself breaking one of the "don't" rules, if it meant the difference between life and death of one of my hunting comrades, even if it was Andy. (Now some might say, let's not go that far!)

It's Friday! (Time to go try to get a turkey with the .410. I know I can do it this time.)

Moja

Let me start by saying I've never been on safari. Someday.... I'm not trying to hijack the thread either, I just have a question for those of you who are experienced in DG hunting. How often do these charges really occur? I'm not speaking to the cats specifically. Another thread claims that more hunters are actually killed by Bufalo. I'm not trying to downplay the danger, I'm just curious on the true frequency of attacks. If someone was lucky enough to be on say 20 safaris and had hunted DG on them, would they probably have been charged yet, or is it unlikely?

Daniel,

Your question is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string.

There is no such thing as a real average on which to base a sensible answer because it depends on so many variables. Just some of the factors that might affect things are how well or badly an individual client shoots, how the PH conducts the follow ups, luck, calibre used, type of habitat in which the hunt is being conducted, proximity of the nearest video camera and sometimes even fertility of individuals imaginations.

Reading some books and/or watching some videos would suggest that damn near every animal shot results in a charge......... all I can say to that is that some people seem to get more charges in a few weeks than Ive had in my entire hunting life.

To give you an idea of how variable it can be, I've had 3 charges (Buff, Leopard & Lion) in a week and none in a year.

Daniel:
Most charges take places as a result of a non-fatally wounded animal still having the piss and vigor to head your way in one last stand. There are also unprovoked charges, where a hunter might walk up on a dangerous game animal and the animal feels his personal space has been violated. Instead of retreating which they often do, the animal feels compelled to mount a charge. These kinds of charges are very rare, albeit they do happen. And thirdly, there are even rarer instances where the hunter might happen to have a chance encounter with a previously wounded animal. Startled by the hunting party, and once again feeling threatened the animal mounts a charge. I am referring here to leopards, lions and buffaloes. I cannot speak as to elephants because I have little experience hunting them. I have taken one, but I executed two crappy first shots at it.

There are also "mock charges" from some animals which in my perspective should be treated like real charge possibilities. Kinda like a terrorist making a threat. Do you dismiss it or take the threat seriously? You take all terrorist threats seriously!

Daniel, there are also hippos too that charge, but I'll leave that discussion to someone else, because such explanation often results in another guy as the same name as mine being brought up.

Now finally to answer your question regarding the probability of this happening, I'll tell you my record. I've been on 20 safaris, taken nearly 300 African animals, about 1/6th of them dangerous game. I have encountered one charge as a result of a poorly placed first shot on a buffalo. It was my fault, and I eventually ended the threat. I am not proud of that incident, and it's nothing to brag about.

Moja (Marc Watts)

I know it isn't a straight forward answer. Understandably, the variables change and control the outcome. I'm just looking for a point of reference. Like you say, the videos are for entertainment and I'm sure don't show a "real" sample of how it goes. I don't know how hard these animals really are to kill, or how often they turn aggressive. Not gonna change my or anyone's world if the question can't be nailed down to a tenth of a percent. thanks

Daniel,

I worked as an infield hunting journalist for five years, accompanying 20+ DG hunts and witnessed 2 serious charges, one elephant cow and one buffalo cow. In that time, the five PH's that I worked with experienced about 15 or so serious charges between them. An average of less than one a year per PH, and each guy was doing 150+ days a year. A couple of them were charged once, maybe twice in the five years, and a couple of others were on the receiving end 3 or 4 times. For 4 years nothing untoward happened - an incident now and then - and then we had 8 serious charges in one year - buffalox4, elephant cowsx3 and leopardx1... The buffalo and leopard were wounded and the ele cows were just mad. That same year - 2007 - many guys from other outfits had close shaves and several hunters were killed in Zim. I know of one tracker, one PH and one client who were killed that year,and quite a few guys were stomped, scratched etc....Just one guy's info, hope it helps to give you an idea. I think that at the end of the day one can't really get an idea, some days a diamond some days a stone...I started accompanying DG hunts in 1990, all the real charges I have witnessed can be counted on one hand. 5 to be precise - elephant cow, buffalox2, leopardx2. 50+ big game hunts....

David

Daniel

Article number 13 on this link http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-articles.html might be of interest.

Another factor that can affect things is the behaviour patterns of animals in individual areas...... which in turn can be caused by (amongst other things) hunting tactics and/or hunting pressure. The cow Elephants in the Zambezi Valley would b a good example. Those ladies most certainly don't have a sense of humour!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Daniel

Article number 13 on this link http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-articles.html might be of interest.

Another factor that can affect things is the behaviour patterns of animals in individual areas...... which in turn can be caused by (amongst other things) hunting tactics and/or hunting pressure. The cow Elephants in the Zambezi Valley would b a good example. Those ladies most certainly don't have a sense of humour!

Good read and I love the title. I train horses so I understand the behavioral aspects. I would think breeding seasons would be a big factor as well, or general stress (drought, lack of food, etc.). Thanks for your thoughts and sharing your experiences.

Sincerely,

Daniel

Always a pleasure to be of help.....