The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting How many bullets have you used to kill a buffalo by cartridge?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
In the excellent book Nyati, Don Heath and Brian Marsh and others, have rule or theory about bullet size and how far a buffalo will run. Namely with a .375 the Dhaka boy will run about 150 yds, with a .400s about 100yds and with a big bore about 50yds. What has been your experience in how many bullets it s taken to put one down by caliber? Not including coup de grace. The record I ve seen is 22 with a 375 and there was an article a few years ago in Sports Afield as I recall of 15 including Gibbs 505 with a final spinal shot . Clearly bullet placement is critical as is the type of bullet , velocity, rifle type etc | ||
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This is just as stupid as Taylors Knockout. Nothing but a load of rubbish. Animals do not understand the caliber and size of the bullet. If you hit them in the right place with a 30-06 they will die. If you hit them in the wrong place with a 700 Nitro Express, they will not. | |||
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Provided bullets perform properly. About two weeks ago I shot a dagga boy at last light on the shoulder with a 300 gn Swift A-Frame from my .375 H&H. The bullet flattened out on the shoulder, broke it but did not penetrate. 14 hours and three shot later the bull was down and out. The round was a Federal Safari at 2450 fps and the bull was 70 yards away. So, I don't think too much velocity was the problem. Not what I expected from a SAF! USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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So basically a couple of hours after sunrise you found your quarry and nailed him.  Even if the bullet had pancaked on the shoulder (A-Frames don't normally do that) it had done sufficient damage to hobble him somewhat. | |||
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I once tracked a buffalo for 3 days that a client shot with an 8 bore double, 1000 grain bullet. We never got the buffalo, he joined a herd. Not much blood but was dragging hind leg. Famous last words: "I think this calls for a Texas heart shot"! Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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I've only shot 6 Buffalo, so a very small sample size. The first Buffalo was a 1-shot kill with a .458, 500 grains hornady soft-point, broadside at 13 yards. That's the only 1 shot Buffalo kill for me. 4 took either 2 or 3 shots, shooting a variety of .375, .416 and .470. Finally... one unwounded buffalo decided to make an unprovoked charge. The first 2 shots were at less than 5 feet. The buff ran off into thick bush. We chased it around, shooting it with either a .470 (me) or .460 weatherby (Roy Vincent). By the time the Buffalo was down for good, it looked sorta like a colander, as there were 27 holes (some were exit holes) spread all over. That Buffalo was a COW that started her charge from about 10-15 yards when we came into sight of each other. | |||
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I have killed both Cape buffalo and Water buffalo with one shot. Some ran a short bit and some went down dead right there and that was with 375 H&H. I have also killed them with the same caliber and it's taken two or three shots. In each case the buffalo in question went down when it was hit in the heart or in the central nervous system, other shots may have killed it but who knows how long it would have taken. Same holds true with buffalo I shot with calibers in the 450 class, it's always about shot placement. Looking at the poll results tells little if anything, it's where the bullets hits that counts and there may be people who regularly shoot more accurately and therefore put the animal down quicker due to better shot placement. Others may not shoot as well and the results will be different. My experience as time goes by is placement of shot is far more important than caliber in getting that animal down although larger calibers will have an edge if the shot is placed well. This argument about caliber will never stop but one must remember that there are many variables to consider. | |||
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I haven't shot a lot of buffalo because I have not pursued them much. In my limited experience though I haven't seen any particular correlation between caliber and number of shots necessary to put down a buffalo or how far the buffalo traveled after taking a lethal hit. One thing I have taken away from buffalo hunting is that I am convinced that modern expanding bullets work a shit load better than solids. Over 20 years ago my PH insisted that I bring only solids for buffalo. I shot two buffalo on that safari and one took 7 hits and the other 9 from a 416 Remington. the 9 shots started out with a bad shot by me and then an ensuing running gun battle. The 7 shot buffalo though started with two double lung shots, four up the butt as the bull stumbled away and one to pay the insurance once he was on the ground. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I don't think that it's stupid to gather the data. Whether it's stupid or not will depend on what conclusion people make with such a small sample set and no way to measure the huge amount of variables. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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When I have a problem, it has yet to be the bullet or Gun. It is my poor marksmanship. | |||
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You are right of course, as long as we are gathering relevant data. It becomes stupid when someone says an animal shot with a 458 will run a 100 yards. One shot with a 416 will 200 yards and one shot with a 375 will run 300 yards. Just in Taylor's convoluted knockdown calculations. They have absolutely no relevance to hunting in real life. | |||
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I've only shot 10 in Africa, and then 4 in Argentina and Aussie. All but one went down for the count with first shot (I put an insurance shot in every one but one). That is with .375, .416, .458 and .470. The only one I put a 2nd shot in on its feet was a cow in Zim with a .458. I hit her right and she was standing, head down and lung blood coming out her mouth and nose . She would have died soon. That was a Nosler partition. When we recovered the bullet, it had come apart and I wasn't impressed. I have shot them with swift A-frames, Nosler solids, and CEB Raptors (by far my favorites). The only one that wasn't DOA was the partition. That had nothing to do with caliber. Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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One shot to kill the buffalo. .375 Nosler 300 grain partition. Two more shots to convince the buff that he was dead. 300 grain Barnes solids And one more Nosler partition to convince ME that the buff was dead. | |||
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I just got back from Zimbabwe from shooting my first two Buffalo. They were both shot with a 450-400 3 1/4" NE. The first took two shots, and the second took six. First shots were swift A frames and the follow ups were Barnes solids. Must have hit the first one just right. ZIMBABWE 2016 ZIMBABWE 2017 Zimbabwe 2019 | |||
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xxx Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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In my experience, which is of course limited, all else being equal - and by that I mean equal bullet performance and shot placement, and non-CNS hits - bigger diameter bullets at higher velocities kill faster. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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+1 Mike | |||
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Yes. Got him thanks to Rex Hoets and his trackers staying on the bull through a herd he joined. He was dragging his left leg due to the broken shoulder. We were all surprised at the SAF's failure. USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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In my experience, seeing buffalo shot with 375, 416 and 460 rifles, there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever that a bigger caliber kills any faster. | |||
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I have hunted buffalo each year for the last 20 years or so, mainly in zim, a lot in the beginning with Swainsons safaris who used to have Dande North and also with buffalo range Safaris's in matetsi unit 6. On my first trip ever with Swainsons I used my 9.3x 62 and shot 3 buffalo with 3 shots. First was a large cow frontal with a woodleigh solid. She ran maybe 25 paces and dropped dead. Next was a huge bodied bull shot on the shoulder with the then Barnes X bullet. He ran 50 yards and was dead when we got to him. Last bull on that hunt was a Texas heart shot with a woodleigh solid and he managed no more than 50 meters before dropping dead. A similar pattern followed on subsequent hunts with Swainsons using the same rifle and bullets. So successful was the 9.3 that Squirrel Meredith rebuked me when I arrived for one hunt with a 375, which I shot other buffalo with, none falling over any quicker than when shot with my9.3 | |||
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Your buffalo are just like the ones we shoot. They have not read the script, that they require half a dozen shots and run a quarter mile before they die if shot with anything smaller than a canon. I just love hunting ignorant, uneducated buffalo  | |||
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Yup. That theory is ridiculous. Downright absurd. So many things come into play when a buff is shot that can have an impact. For example, at the shot was the buff's adrenaline level already up . If so, it may run further than if not. I have flattened them where they didn't run a single step with a 375 H&H, 416 Remington Mag and a 500 NE. On the other hand, I have had some interesting experiences. I hammered one so damn badly with the 416 RM that it's lungs were literally hanging out. This could clearly be seen with the naked eye. The bull went almost a half a mile before expiring. The amount of blood loss was staggering. Why did it go this far? Easy answer. It wanted to. Probably the most shots I ever took was a 2 years ago (I think). I hit the bull hard initially then again as he was running off. I caught him crossing an opening and hammered him yet again. We followed. He jumped. Both the PH & I shot him. This is 4 shots for me. We followed a short distance and found the bull down but clearly alive. I started shooting. The f'ing thing would not die in spite of shots that were exactly where they should have been. This thing refused to give up. If my memory serves me correctly, I shot 9 times attempting to finish this bull. Of these finishing shots , one was disturbing and slightly off the mark. I was tiring of the bull not dying. I decided to brain him. I missed the brain but was close enough that it blew both eyeballs out. This thing would still not give it up. | |||
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So I've shot 2 Buffalo both with a 470 NE, first one took 4 shots final shot was the kill shot. Second one took 4 shots first 3 where kill shot 2 shredded the lung and 1 but a hole in the heart that I could put my fist through. So how many shots did it take me to kill it? Member NRA, NFA,CSSA,DSC,SCI,AFGA | |||
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If the shot was a high heart shot, or a brain shot, any decent cartridge/bullet combination should do the job. Your 375 shooting a 300 A-Frame is more than a decent combination. On your shot, on the shoulder, which can be excellent shot placement as well, I can't help but think a 570g TSX at 2300 fps in the same spot would have done better. Just more bone breaking power. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Have only shot two Buffalo. Both died from a single shot. .375 H&H with 300 gr. TSX. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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If this was an attempt to collect info, it was very poorly done. I kept track of a bunch of mine, and have some thoughts on the subject, but the simplistic way it was listed and the fact you can only list one per caliber discounts anyone who has any volume of shooting. I've had a number of one shot kills. I've had a number that required more than one shot. I've lost one. As Larry said, sometimes they won't give up. I don't recall who it was that said it's easy to kill a buffalo, but sometimes its harder to convince him of that fact. If I have a opportunity, I don't care how well I shot him, if I have a shot after the first I take it 95% of the time... I'm working on increasing that percentage, but its hard. I've been involved in really only one rodeo with Buffalo, and that was due to some piss poor shooting on multiple peoples part. I kind of agree with the initial premise, but thought it was a bit smaller difference assuming a lung shot. | |||
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Some writers seem to forget that animals do not read. If one shoots 10 animals, with same caliber and bullet, in the same place apart from the CNS, one might get 10 different results. This little fact seems to escape them. | |||
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I tend to agree with Tony Sanchez in that for buffalo "use the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately" and "no caliber is too big when a buffalo is charging" (or words to that effect). I can see why many PHs recommend a .375 for their clients, because a buffalo hit well with a .375 is much better then a buffalo hit badly with anything else. My opinion is that if you can't shoot a .416 or .404 accurately you have no business hunting buffalo or elephant, etc. Once a buffalo has a head of adrenalin, sometimes they can take multiple shots from even the heaviest calibers with little effect. PHC once wrote about a buffalo that ran a 100 yards after taking multiple shots to the heart/lung area from a .460 WBY. Once the animal finally dropped they opened it up and the chest cavity was filled with basically goo, but that buffalo kept running. I don't make my living guiding clients so take my opinion on this subject with a grain of salt. LOL BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Amazing! I have shot quite a few elephants and buffalo with a 375. I suppose they all died from shame of being shot at by someone who has no business hunting them with such a small caliber | |||
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Saeed, the biggest caliber you have used on buff is only a .460 Weatherby? With all due respect, no one can doubt that you have shot boatloads of buff, but you haven't used a big enough rifle to be able to comment on this subject. Try a .500 A-Square! That will get you 570 grains of Barnes TSX bullet at 2,500+ fps of MV for 8,000+ ft.-lbs. of ME. Put one of those in the boiler room, and you will see with your own eyes how much faster they will drop! And I mean all of them, including the ones that are hypnotized, adrenalized, ignorant, uneducated and even PhDs! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, I have friends who tried the 577 T.Rex. On both buffalo and elephant. Both them and their professional hunters noticed absolutely no difference in killing. In fact, in one instant, one shot a tuskless cow in the head, missing the brain, with this caliber. She just shook her head and carried on as if nothing had happened. If for one minute I thought a bigger caliber would be more effective for hunting buffalo, I would be using it. I have rifles up to the 700 Nitro Express, which I can use if I wished. If it was not a legal requirement for a 375 to be used, I would most likely be using even a smaller caliber. And I bet no buffalo would notice the difference. | |||
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 Now I'll try to be more politically correct than Saeed here, but he's 100% right!! No one here has more experience than Saeed, not even close!!! I've shot over 20 buffalo, I'm sure Saeed has shot over 200 buffalo - and both of us favor the same basic cartridge, the .375 / .404 otherwise known as the .375 Ultra Mag. I've shot buffalo, lions and numerous elephants with everything from a .375 H&H to a .600NE. I can personally draw two conclusions from my DG experience of 36 safaris. 1. I've personally not see a more devastating cartridge on DG than the .375 Ultra Mag. Most may not agree - I can just give my opinion based on personal experience, that's all. 2. Regardless of what you shoot them with - the most important thing is.....where you shoot them. Period!!! For example - I shot two huge Botswana bulls with a 270 grain bullet out of my .375 RUM - both drop liked a brick, right in their tracks. I shot a little cow elephant in the Zambezi Valley with my .600NE / she didn't even flinch when I hit her with the first 900 grain bullet at 25 yards!!!! The rest of it is just fodder for writing books, | |||
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100% AGREE! The fastest / most lethal kills I've seen on buffalo have all come from the .375 RUM with a 270 gr bullet at 3,000 FPS. I guess speed really does kill?!?! | |||
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I'm sorry Mike, but that just isn't true! No way, no how! | |||
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I would only say one thing more on this subject. This debate has gone on long enough, and some folks need to be more careful about what they say isn't true. I will match three buff on three. More than that I cannot afford on one trip. I will match that on any shoulder to shoulder buffalo hunt, with any other man alive, shooting the smaller bore. With my big rifle, against any other man's smaller bore rifle, under comparable circumstances - as in no CNS hits, and all shots inside 50 yards, plus or minus. Bear in mind that this may require 3 weeks in the Selous. Each man pays his own way, but the loser pays the prevailing party's costs. Same hunt? Same outfitter? Probably best to avoid disputes. But the necessary arrangements and costs may prove prohibitive. So,I will be flexible. We can do it like an NRA postal match. But until that happens, I would venture to say that I and my experiences are as right as anyone else's, and that to me, mine are way more right. Based, of course, only on what I have seen with my own eyes and done with my own rifles. I offer these terms fully aware that it's possible that my experiences with my rifles are unique and flawed, and your mileage has simply varied in the righter direction. So put up or shut up. I may have to change a few things, but I can make arrangements for next year. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, I will take you up on what you said above, " so put up or shut up"  Shoot as many elephants and buffalo as I have with your bigger is better arguments, and I will pay for dinner and drinks for both of us to sit down and compare notes how they all died! I look forward to that | |||
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Hello Phil, can you remember what Squirrel was using at the time as his PH rifle? I have a friend who recalls the same type of stories about his old man's 9.3 and tells similar tale of a hunt with; a 375 versus a 9.3. Made me go out and buy one too And have to say I feel the same now...... | |||
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Saeed, I am not quite sure what you mean by that, but if we are talking about three buff vs. three, for next year, you will be paying for some fine Pomerol, Lagavulin, and hand rolled Cohibas and .500 A-Sqare ammunition, not to mention daily rates and trophy fees. I will stand by my terms.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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No that is not what I meant. You keep talking about your experience, and what you have seen, against the experience of others. Without exception, every professional hunter I have hunted with or talked to, agrees that the caliber and size of the bullet makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to killing an animal whatsoever. So for us to be able to compare notes accurate, you have to shoot as many elephants and buffalo as I have. Good luck, and I hope you have as much fun as I have had | |||
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BTW, I once shot a bull moose in Newfoundland with a 9.3x62mm. Point of the shoulder. Good bullet, Norma Oryx, passed through everything fatal. Right to to the far ass end quarter under the skin. He just kind of looked at me, quizzically. Didn't even flinch. At 25 yards. As in, did you seriously just shoot me with that thing? Is that all you got? Then he turned, to run away to a farther, more distant death. Three shots later, in rapid succession, and he finally breathed his last and was finally dead right there. Different story with more gun, no doubt. But only based on my experience. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting How many bullets have you used to kill a buffalo by cartridge?
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