Don Heath shot 38 buffalo straight with 1 shot per Buff, using 9,3x62, and RWS TUG bullets (bullet design dates 1935).

Don Heath was here staying in my house, and we talked about all sorts of things, including the fallacy of "bigger is better".

He said it keeps the non hunting gun writers happy

I am good friend of two ph's. One used to hunt for ivory in cameroon in the 70's and early 80's the. Full time ph year round. Elephants shoot arround 650. Buffalos... forest arround 300 hundred. Cape & nile around 700 hundred.
He says he would rather shoot with a 500 hundred than any other ( all work well but in tight situations for him the 500 schultz gives a little extra.but for clients he allways says " the one u are more comfortable and meets the legal caliber".
The other one has shoot well over 2000 thousand elephants with a 458 as a game scout in zimb doing culling another few hundred with client. He never gives exact numbers because he says he cannot remember. Buffaloes he has no clue but many. Especially for rations. With clients over 300 hundred. Allways with his old 458.
A few years ago he recieved as a present a westley Richards 500 from the sheik of Quatar. He has only shoot a few elephants with it,30 or so, with clients and 2 stopping full charge of Hwange bulls)
He says that " in his experience the 500 rifles give that little extra that may make a difference in a tight situation. He also says he thinks the clients must use what they are comfortable with that meets the legal minimum.
So there are people with experience that think that the 500 " could" make a difference every now and then.
As a side note I have only shoot 14 elephants myself and backed up in another 3. The 2 I have shoot with a 500 jeffrey and a 500 nitro have both run. 1 st a hundred meters before collapsing and the other one arround 25 meters.
With my 416 remignton I have put down two on the spot with shoulder shots. Kept shooting to keep them down

Just off hand as best I recall, Ive shot buffalo with a 7x57 milsurp mauser; 30-06, 338, 375, 416s, 458s, 404s, 9.3x62, 450-400 3" and 3-1/4", 450-3.25, .470 maybe another caliber or two..With a proper shot in the right spot with the correct bullet construction, there is no difference, the results are about the same with exceptions depending on a cornocopia of whys and wherefores, ask anybody who has shot lots of the large DG, or ask the buffalo..

As to how far they run when shot and being able to come to a accurate consummation of such a bunch of crap like that is absurb..Some peoples children!!

I've shot 135 buffalo; mostly the larger Asiatics. There was a point where I wanted to settle for myself whether bigger was in fact better. When a buffalo culling opportunity came up I took both a .375 and a 458 and alternated between them. After 16 in 5 days I was convinced that the .458 definitely smacked them harder and that they tended to run shorter distances on average. That was enough for me, and I switched over to the .458 for buffalo and never looked back. The difference may not have been day and night, but it was enough.

To be honest it wouldn't have hurt my feelings any if the .375 would have won or
tied. I was sort of hoping it would. I had sort of planned a rematch of sorts with a .375 Weatherby, but lately the opportunities have dried up.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I've shot 135 buffalo; mostly the larger Asiatics. There was a point where I wanted to settle for myself whether bigger was in fact better. When a buffalo culling opportunity came up I took both a .375 and a 458 and alternated between them. After 16 in 5 days I was convinced that the .458 definitely smacked them harder and that they tended to run shorter distances on average. That was enough for me, and I switched over to the .458 for buffalo and never looked back. The difference may not have been day and night, but it was enough.

To be honest it wouldn't have hurt my feelings any if the .375 would have won or
tied. I was sort of hoping it would. I had sort of planned a rematch of sorts with a .375 Weatherby, but lately the opportunities have dried up.

I imagine culling (if shooting animals from mobs) would be the real test of effectiveness between cartridges or calibre as once all hell breaks loose and the animals are in the flight mode after the first shot the adrenaline and fear kicks in. The shot may not be so perfect too once animals are on the move and the best that can be hoped for is a good body shot under these circumstances.

These were often the conditions the old timers and rangers on herd reduction shot under rather than a careful stalk and hopefully single shot on a single animal who may be unaware of the danger or alert to something that quite hasn't happened yet.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I've shot 135 buffalo; mostly the larger Asiatics. There was a point where I wanted to settle for myself whether bigger was in fact better. When a buffalo culling opportunity came up I took both a .375 and a 458 and alternated between them. After 16 in 5 days I was convinced that the .458 definitely smacked them harder and that they tended to run shorter distances on average. That was enough for me, and I switched over to the .458 for buffalo and never looked back. The difference may not have been day and night, but it was enough.

To be honest it wouldn't have hurt my feelings any if the .375 would have won or
tied. I was sort of hoping it would. I had sort of planned a rematch of sorts with a .375 Weatherby, but lately the opportunities have dried up.

I imagine culling (if shooting animals from mobs) would be the real test of effectiveness between cartridges or calibre as once all hell breaks loose and the animals are in the flight mode after the first shot the adrenaline and fear kicks in. The shot may not be so perfect too once animals are on the move and the best that can be hoped for is a good body shot under these circumstances.

These were often the conditions the old timers and rangers on herd reduction shot under rather than a careful stalk and hopefully single shot on a single animal who may be unaware of the danger or alert to something that quite hasn't happened yet.

If you ever get a rematch with a 375 Weatherby shooting 350g Woodleigh HDs I'd like to know about the results. I imagine the 458 would still win, but you never know ...

For the record, as this discussion seems to have wandered, I never said smaller bores won't do the job.

What I said, and what I stand by, is that high velocity big bore rifles drop and incapacitate game faster.

Best are those that generate in excess of 2,500 fps of muzzle velocity. Fifty caliber minimum. Generating 8,000 plus or minus ft.-lbs. of muzzle energy

These will drop big game, especially buffalo, hard and fast and for certain. Quicker and with less after-the-shot drama than lesser rifles.

I can't fathom why there's any disagreement on this. Maybe the small bore crowd doesn't mind a long follow-up.

Personally, I just like to walk right up to them where they were slammed to the ground right after I shot them.

This is always within a couple of yards or so of where they were hit. Sometimes they struggle back up to their feet. But they wobble. And I shoot again. Game over.

Every time.

I'll leave the longer walks to those who need the exercise.

Firstly, Saaed let me apologize that this thread caused such consternation for you as our gracious host. When you carry a bowel of food to puppies they ll happily greet you but then nip your ankles. Maybe it's the same with cheetah cubs and hunters?

By way of background I ve had a long interest in forensics, mostly human, but also dissecting all the animals I ve or hunting partners have shot, discussing cartridge performance with PHs, such as Don Heath, and reading a large library of books on the subject. Nevertheless I m not an expert and I was interested in the real world experience of other buffalo hunters.

I m fully aware Don loved his 9.3x62 and he gave me pictures of some of his hunts including the amazing one of the elephants head exploding in dust from his 9.3 just as he shot it and the more unfortunate one of the PH killed in a buffalo charge. I think we can all agree that a well placed and penetrating solid in the brain, both elephant or buffalo, will most of the time kill an animal. There are the occasional exceptions. In my fathers butchery the cattle did not always go down with a .22 blank / piston gun shot, humans have survived brain shots, and claerly in a buffalo or lion from a frontal shot the brain is not much bigger than egg. Bullets without much speed can go between the cerebral hemispheres or mote amazingly enter the skull and follow the inner curve of the skull (calverium) and exit without killing a person and one PH book I read of the same in an elephant autopsy. Aaron has the video of him shooting the boss of a buffalo that hardly flinched. As far as spinal shots it depends where they are. I ve shot buffalo and PG in the chest thoracic vertebrae but below the cervical vertebrae and the the animals have been bowled over, sometimes lost consciousness (spinal shock) but then have come round and tried to get up with there forelimbs. On autopsy the thoracic vertebrae were shattered and by the way it's a smallish target. And remember the spine dips down to about mid neck / chest height at the brisket, a point Kevin Robertson makes and I just checked on the last buffalo I shot.

So what about the results, clearly a small sampling and not complete?

Firstly as far as rifles reportedly used: .375 or .400-475 was used by 69% or about two thirds. Only

Only one quarter had used the .500 dreds and one eighth .577 and rarely larger.

Secondly, more were killed by first shots with a .375, namely approximately half or put in another way, twice as often as 2-3 shots. However a number, about one in seven needed four or more shots.

For the .400-475 again 34 used this group. In retrospect it would have been good to see how the .416 did versus others. The penetration of .416 with a solid is excellent but more relevant to elephant brain shots. Does it matter with body shots with say a TSX and the higher velocity versus doubles in this category? Who knows? At least in this small sample, about the same results as .375, but namely slightly less died from first shots. And slightly more needed two 2-3 than .375. The numbers are to small but similar trends with a number needing four or more shots.

Again for .500 dreds few people used them, 12, but equally needed one shot or 2-3. Of note none needed more.

Again, like .500 dreds, .577 and larger, usually got the job done with one to three shots but not needing more.


Can trends be gleaned? Certainly not statistically !

Clearly if the hunter shoots their .375 to .475 caliber well and hits the heart with an expanding bullet, it will die. If you don't hit the heart you may need some tracking, more shots, and experience an exciting time ! Keep practicing and make sure your PH is ready (once one was not there for me for wounded buff and another time a friend and former boss nearly go killed - had severe injuries , from the PH not being in place) with a big

Does the element of recoil or not practicing play a role in these two categories? Maybe but one can't tell if one compared results by experts versus the occasional hunter with these guns. We also don't know if all used softs or soft followed by solids, maybe multiple.

For the big guns, clearly there is no guarantee of first shot, placement is still critical but if not perfect, follow up is less likely needed with multiple shots. Clearly the holes are bigger. The .577 TSX from my last buffalo in July in the off shoulder muscle, clearly hit no bone (I ve seen the disintegrate) was a perfect flower with petals or propeller and measures 1.25" (3.2mm) in diameter! But the buffalo ran about 50-60 yards an got some more bullet fodder while running.

There many different opinions expressed, some strongly and vociferously, in this thread! Can one find the variable that maybe is an important factor that is not addressed to resolve these real life differences in experience?

One variable that is not looked at with this poll is the influence of bullet velcity.

I must agree with Saeed that the .375 can be very effective but I personally am a strong believer in also velocity influence. Like Saeed I have two custom .375 s but based on Gibbs .505 cases. His is based on .404. Mine are absolutely lethal but heavy and incredibly accurate. I have shot buffalo with .375 H & H through the heart but in total ran about 120 yards with a half inch hole in the left pumping chamber (left ventricle). I ve seen people survive bullet holes in the heart from .22 and 9mm but never a .223 or .45 ACP although that may have happened but unlikely at close range. The record that if seen recorded was 28 9 mm bullets all over the body. The issue with smaller bullets is the smaller holes that can temporarily seal in the heart with clot, particularly low pressure cambers and also the cycle of the heart when it is hit.

Similarly, a lower velocity bullet outside the heart or big arteries (aorta and pulmonary) is less likely to kill quickly, particularly if small. But the big unknown factor is that of hydrostatic shock. There clearly is a lot of research on this in ballistic gels and fair amount of hunter experience, but again, if not in the heart, it needs to be near major nerve plexi or closed chambers with blood vessels. It also makes the blast effect greater in the abdomen, like liver.

What is there in the hunting literature? I m reminded of the story of the meat harvester in Mozambique that shot over 6000 buffalo for the sugar plantations (Peter Flack says they were shooting 10,000 a year) and the priest who did the same with smaller calibers. If I remember correctly Harry Manners said they used small calibers, and the sugar harvester from the back of a truck chasing buffalo, but in the end got killed by a wounded buffalo. Proves nothing other than a bufffalo can kill you. There are plenty of stories about injuries from buffalo using .577 among the elephant hunters like Sutherland and Neumann. Of note one of the, and I forget which one, did switch briefly to a .500 NE but had some close calls and went back to .577. But then they also had elephants not killed by brain .577 shots and remember the .577 does not have the best Sectional Density or real life penetration. I ve shot buffalo from the front and rear with a .577 solid and it has not exited. With the extra velocity, I ve shot a buffalo from the rear through the buttock with a Gibbs .505 and it exited the chest. Is it a quicker killer than a high velocity custom .375 or low velocity (mine is at max of about 2100fps) .577? I don't know but if anybody would like to sponsor me or come a long for a three way comparison with 20 buffalo in each category, happy to do it !!!

I wonder what velocity you are getting from your 375/505?

I have a 375/416 Rigby Improved, and hunted w8th it only once.

Velocity was 3140 fps with Barnes 300 X.

Penetration was awful!

Saeed. For the one I get 2900 fps and the other 3270 fps with 350 gr SMK. Yes those make huge holes if they exit but tend to break up when they hit bone. Because of that I ve used GS custom solids with good penetration. Much like your turned special bullets that expand. Because the rifles are so heavy I tend to use them more for elk hunting, often longer ranges , in the desert.