Here is one more photo iof the now "famous" Ngorongoro bull:



and his genetic brother (?) in the background:





and what will happen to him living in a national park

If wildlife management was done on a rational -and not as now emotional- basis then that bull could bring let´s say 50 000USD to the local communities.

"Haste makes waste" -decisions are made quickly and politically which leads to waste, mismanagement of resources and destruction of habitat.

A sad pic ain´t it?

Is brotehr in the background sure seems to have have much thicker tusks maybe he will be the next big boy.

Very nice pics

Spot on.

What really suprised me about the dead ele pic is that it has obviously been lying there for a few days while the carcass got totally eaten and the wardens never removed the tusks!!! This in the Ngorongoro which is a tiny place and that carcass could not have gone unnoticed for more than a few minutes. The temptation to pay a Maasai (who have access to the crater springs for their cattle) a couple $1,000 to sneak in at night and retrieve the ivory must have been very high.....

Cewe,

But how could you hunt an animal like that being use to people all his life ? Hopefully their genes are outside the park as well and hope for the best.

safari-hunt,
"used to people..." in a vehicle! On foot, other than the obvious Maasai, he probably will react differently more so if he is outside of the park.

I think if controlled hunting would be allowed in national parks the game would quickly pick up on avoiding people on foot. The game on most of the ranches I´ve hunted on are quite used to vehicles but it´s a different story when you´re off the bakkie!

Allowing culling/selective trophy hunting and giving local communities a share of the proceeds would be a quick way to abolish poaching. The logic is that the communities themselves would invest in keeping poachers away from THEIR animals.

Ron Thomson should be obligatory reading for all hunters, gun owners and friends of freedom.

Here's a photo I snapped in Addo elephant Park in RSA.....a real waste in a land of such enormous need!!!!

Is anyone on AR knowledgable about how to get a protest written and delivered to the right organisations? Would Saeed allow us to use the forum for promoting "conservation through utilisation"?

If we get togther as an organisation we could carry some weight and maybe sway some opnions before it´s too late.

Does anyone know if they run an artificial insemination program. These bulls have great genetics. Of course, I wouldn't want to be the poor guy collecting the specimen

If that's sky with clouds in the background of the second pic, those are the damnedest clouds I've ever scene. They produce a magical effect on the image. If the pic is not modified, that is a hell of an image on several levels!

quote:

safari-hunt,
"used to people..." in a vehicle! On foot, other than the obvious Maasai, he probably will react differently more so if he is outside of the park.

I remember the first time I visited Hwange NP in Zim - and as we drove through the Deka Safari Area, only just outside the park, we spotted an elephant running flat out for the park - he knew he was in a safari area and he wasn't hanging around for our vehicle. Yet when we got to the entrance to the park, we couldn't get in because the elephants were standing in the middle of the road - they knew where they were safe and were they weren't!

Here's a couple more of the same Elephant...

Hmmm...at the risk of sounding contrary...

I don't think letting them die is 'emotional' at all (trying to 'save' them from death at old age would 'emotional'. I obviously aggree with wildlife utilization for positive profit but National/State Parks the world over typically manage more for intrinsic as first priority (yes they do alos need to turn some income of course) than instrumental value.

Of course wildlife has instrumnetal value, and has for millenia, BUT we also need to consider its intrinsic value, otherwise how would be value and appreciate it if we could not buy/sell it in different form? When you hunt of look at game, you obviously have some kind of real value of what it means to you, other than its worth on the hoof.

Sure, it would be text book management perfect if that big old bull could be hunted in his last years, maximum economic benefit, no agrument there, but I guess we also need to accept that these things happen and in large part should be appreciative that they can still happen and not all eles are in zoos...right?

I do also find it odd that parks didn't remove the tusks though?? Can we take it as a good sign however that they haven't been removed yet by poachers?

If we see that as a 'waste' we can extend that rationale onto ourselves, can we not? Could you be fitter, stronger, smarter, better educated, more charitable, faithful etc etc. No doubt yes, we all could. So if you could and you aren't, is your life just a waste then, you haven't lived to you real 'full potential'?

Don't get me wrong, that's a mother of a trophy bull and could have been 'sold' yes, but a 'waste'...I would think carelfully and broadly about that....what constitutes a waste?

Last year there was a bunch of posts about a hunt in the crater. What happened to that?

Hunting isn't permitted in the crater.....you might be referring to a thread about 'if hunting were allowed in the crater, you could expect this standard of trophy'

quote:

If that's sky with clouds in the background of the second pic, those are the damnedest clouds I've ever scene. They produce a magical effect on the image. If the pic is not modified, that is a hell of an image on several levels!

Texas: if you look in the foreground, you'll see the scorched earth. I believe the background to be the same: scorched, where the grass burned and the bush didn't. Just my opinion.
If we looked to hunting a bull like that for purely "beneficial enhancement of local communities" at auction that Bull would/could bring over $100 USD and maybe twice that IMHO. Honestly, I hate to see our world wildlife become only a commodity. Big money brings attention to anything. Unfortunately, money can bring corruption, greed and plain evil out of people sometimes. That's the human in Homo Erectus and his offspring. It is sad to see such a magnificent creature wasted, but I guess the predators and scavengers saw that opinion differently. Thanks for the pics guys, that was a remarkable Ele. LDK

Im just curious if anyone knows how big the bull was. How many lbs on each side. Im just curious.

What a truly great animal!

I really recommend reading Ron Thomson´s books as he shows how managing elephants is a very complicated -and expensive- process.

When an area starts carrying an overpopulation of elephants they start to wreck havoc on the whole ecology of the area thus destroying the habitat for many other species. Elephants need a lot of food and a lot of space and if they are confined to park size areas they will eventually ruin the biotope. This includes factors like soil erosion etc.

Letting animals live out their natural lives in the wild is of course not a "waste" in itself but if you have people starving on the other side of the fence the picture changes.

Reading Thomson´s book was a real eyeopener and in more than one way.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Last year there was a bunch of posts about a hunt in the crater. What happened to that?

I remember what you are talking about. It was a one time hunt for all species that was supposed to go on auction. Did that ever happen?

I have heard that there are no female elephants in the crater? If so, so much for genetics. Dr.C

Also, I would like to know the camera/lens particulars of the first two photos. Obviously, those are bushes in the background and not clouds, however, the photos are stellar. Probably taken w/ a long lens and small aperature, I only wish I had taken them.

a supermodel pin-up for elephant hunters i love it.

If any one is interested in voicing a protest on how elephants are managed, Cites etc please contribute your ideas to tje "ele and ebay" thread.

KUDUBULL,
The dead ele is not the same ele as in the other pics if that is what you thought. It is a good tusker none-the-less!

Larry and bulldog:
the thread you are referring to, I think, is the one I started. It was a hypothetic question. There never was a "planned auction hunt" for the crater.

Doccash,
That is not true. There are indeed a few small family groups that frequent the crater. Most of these stay on the escarpment and beyond where there is plenty of food for them in the forests. The crater floor has limited fodder for large ele groups. I think the older bulls though, see it as a retirement home... The cameras were either a SONY F707 or a CMOS R1 - if that makes any sense? Pics taken by friends of mine.

Hunt or not hunt, harvest the ivory or not harvest the ivory, I must say that I had the distinct priveledge of seeing this bull this past first week of December,2006. He came out of a "swamp" on the west end of the crater. His back,emaciated as he might have been,was even with the hieght of foliage so must have been about 9ft or so high. Our driver referred to him as the grand old man of the crater. At the time, he was by himself. or at least his buddies never showed their snouts out of that heavy bush. I have pictures but nothing close up. Bwanamich, when did he die? It was really a treat to have seen this old boy. If an elephant really remembers everything, think about how much modern African history he could relate. Forget the anthropomorphism, I'm only making a point that 70(?) years is a lot of living for any kind of critter, four legged or two, in modern Africa. The pictures look like they were taken in the Lerai (sp?) forest. Is that the case? At least, they're fever trees. Can't be too many of this big fellas around any more. It was a treat to see him. Thanks for sharing.

Yellowstone,
The big bull has not died. the dead elephant pictured above is a different bull but a great one none-the-less. Yes the pics were from Lerai forest.

"The famouse NGR bull"
From what does it´s fame originate?
Have I missed something?

He's been photographed by millions...