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One of Us |
What about long range shooting of cape buffalo. Even though they may be harder to get close to, is all this long range "sniping" of cape buffalo the same thing? Perhaps shooting, not hunting? Any thoughts? | |||
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Lion and Brown bear "ARE" dangerous at 120 yds! There's a difference here. Shooting Elephant, and Buffalo at 120 yds plus, can be the cause of getting that charge later, because your shot is likely the be not so well placed. Now he becomes more dangerous, because you have raised his adrenlen level, and also now you may have to get CLOSER than you like! It really makes no difference, because either way it is up to the guy paying the bill,and takeing the risk, after all!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Precisely. Also, one should take into consideration the whole hunt, not just how far the shot is taken. And if we really want to go to extreme, why bother with a rifle, or a bow and arrow, or a spear? Just walk up to the animals of your choice and strangle it with your bare hands - gloves are not allowed either. Lovely! Walter just said one should be naked when hunting bare hand! That way there should not be any more complaints on how a persons chooses to hunt. | |||
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Saeed, With all due respect, I prefer not to see any naked buff hunt videos. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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| One of Us |
Wouldn't you say muffing a shot at 120 yards (or whatever) means the animal is more likely to escape than charge. Muffing or missing a precise shot on an animal at close range, would have a higher likelihood of a charge. Because you are intruding in the animals direct space! Look at Mark Sullivan, he gets into the animals face at close range and provokes a charge. Whereas some other hunters snipe at their buffalo at fairly long range and never experience a charge. | |||
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Especially Walter. However a nubile young blonde ...... | |||
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Bill, I have absolutely no intention of allowing Walter to hunt naked using my rifle. If he wishes to do it barehand and naked, I am sure us - who he calls "the nasty three" - Roy, Alan and myself - would have great pleasure in video his hunt. We will have to rated it XXX then, and one has to prove his age before he can view it. There is something definitely somethig wrong with this man! Walter said he might make some money selling it to Congressmen like Foley! Gentlemen, now you know what I have to put up with day in and day out!  | |||
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Rename it 'elephant sniping'. GS    | |||
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[QUOTE]It really makes no difference, because either way it is up to the guy paying the bill,and takeing the risk, after all! [QUOTE] Mac I have to STRONGLYdisagree with you and Saeed. It is not up to the guy paying the bill. It should be up to the guys that have to go in and sort out a mess made by a client that didn't kill an animal that he should have. That wuld be the PH, Trackers, Game Scout, App Ph's etc. Sniping an Ele or Buff from beyond the client's ability to make a 100% kill risks more than just the client's money. If a client is too fearful to approach an animal close enough for a clean kill than he should be hunting non dangerous game. | |||
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I've never shot an elephant (yet) but I suspect that at 120 yards, there would be more time to set up the shooting sticks instead of shooting offhand at close range. It might then be easier to hit the brain from a longer range. Do they use shooting sticks on elephant? Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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John, it is quite clear I didn't make my meaning clear! What I meant was, now you have to follow him where ever he goes, and now he's wounded, makeing him more dangerous when you do get to him! You are right, he is most likely to run away when wounded at long range. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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My whole point Mickey1  Get close and hunt him the way dangerous game should be hunted!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac Indy. Take your shooting sticks, cut them in to 12" sections and feed them to the fire. Then go and learn how to hit a 6" bull at 100 yards off hand, with any rifle you are going to hunt with. It is much easier to hit a coffee can at 30 feet than it is to hit it at 300 feet, even off of sticks. | |||
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| One Of Us |
I recall seeing on the "Buzz Charlton elephant hunting DVD" that several hunters used shooting sticks. And I was offered to use sticks in Zim last year if I wanted, but declined. I personally think shooting sticks would be in the way if things got nasty. As Mickey says, it better to be proficient in shooting offhand at reasonable elephant hunting distances. | |||
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*************************** Thank you Mickey...been wanting to say that myself for quite some time. This whole "shooting stick thing" has gotten waaayyyy out of hand. Just an opinion from an "old school" type. Your experience may vary. Cheers, Don | |||
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"......This whole "shooting stick thing" has gotten waaayyyy out of hand......" YES, we had a wounded Mt Nyala get away one time. It was about 50 yards away in plain sight in front of the client who wouldn't shoot without his shooting sticks! Rich Elliott Rich Elliott Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris | |||
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Shoot from where ever you and your PH agree on, but if you don't stalk close to to stalkable DG, you deny yourself the greatest thrill in hunting. To each his own. | |||
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Seems to me that Foley likes his game a might younger and more tender than Walter!!!  465H&H | |||
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Gents: I posted over in the Hunting Reports forum about a great 89 pounder just taken in Zim. I think I would have definetly tried the 120 yarder on this one. Nice bull! jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I would love to see somone shooting a buffalo in thick bush at 100 yards off hand  | |||
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A good man has got to know his limitations! | |||
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If my granma had balls she would be my grandpa....huh!     "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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I have never found the need to use shooting sticks on any water buffalo or the two elephant this year. I may have used them on my single cape buffalo in 2002. Elephant are shot at such close range shooting sticks are more of a hinderance than a benefit. Also the exagerated movement of a tracker (or PH) setting up the shooting sticks is one reason so many animals turn and run. If shooting off-hand it is quicker and less un-necessary movement. | |||
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Dang, self-rigtheousness gets a big play here sometimes. Sometimes they are a good idea. I used sticks once when an animal was only 30 yards away but I was so darn nervous I was shaking like a leaf. I needed the sticks! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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"Why do you need to be so close to elephant for the shot?" perhaps because a precision +/- 1 MOA is +/- 3.2 cm at 120 yards, vs +/- 0.8 cm at 30 yards It can be significative when facing such a dangerous game | |||
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Bill, You have been here long enough to know who to listen to and who to ignore | |||
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Saeed, Regarding your comment with respect to Walter and Foley, I have no doubt that Foley would have Walter in the bag and mounted in no time at all. Especially if he used Barney Frank as his PH.... SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Micky1, I happen to be a classified Master at High Power Rifle, a major part of which sport consists of shooting at a 6" 10-ring at 200 yards offhand (no sticks). But I know that anyone can shoot much better with the sticks. Now using the sticks, I can kill an Impala easily at 250 yards, hitting within a few inches of where I aim. Since an elephant's vital organs are so much larger than this, why shouldn't someone shoot from sticks at ranges up to 300 yards, assuming you can see the elephant that far away? If the elephant is at 120 yards, 200 yards, or 250 yards, it should be possible to set up the sticks without being detected. In short, why do we shoot all sorts of plains game at much further ranges than elephants, when it should be a lot easier to place a killing shot into an elephant (heart-lung, not brain shot)? Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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Maybe because getting in close enough to hear his belly rumble is what elephant hunting is all about. | |||
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Indy, I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, when I'm shooting an animal of the size of an elephant or Buff... I prefer to get as close as possible to maximize the amount of energy delivered to my target. Energy falls off fast due to the impact velocity loss that occurs when you shoot from longer range. Oh yea...and that stomach rumble thing....wow, what a sensation!!!!! Cheers, Don | |||
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Gentlemen, I will use whatever support I can find - even my PH shoulders - which I have used many times. Shooting under hunting conditions is NOT like shooting at the range! I have seen those who can so shoot so well on targets make such an absolute mess in the field. | |||
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The vitals of an elephant are larger than those of an impala, and the shot that hits very close to those vitals on an Impala, almost always do a lot of damage to those organs. The impala is little more than 12' from one side to another, and from stem to stern he is about 3 ft, with a hide that is paper thin, and bones that are little bigger than a jackrabbit! The difference is the brain of an elephant is 2 1/2, to 3 ft ft deep in his head, from the side, under a hide that is 4' thick, and a cheek bone that is 9' thick. That brain is 4 ft deep from the front through the same obstacles, and his heart is very large but is only an easy target through the chest wall with his on side leg extended forward while walking. With a weakening velocity of your bullet, as you say, at 120, 200,or 250 yds is very likely to veer off course, and mostly miss the vitals, leaving him wounded just well enough to let him travel no more than ten or so miles! Unlike the little impala, when you get to the elephant, he is not going to run away this time, and also unlike the impala, he is likely to kill someone, because you poked him at those rediculous ranges, and you have to shoot him up close anyway, only now he is not just concerned with your presence, but is mad as hell!  I'm not saying you don't have the right to use the ele as a paper target, and shoot him at those ranges, but paper targets don't move just as you shoot, and your bullet doesn't have to fight it's way through a pile of tough hide and bone to hit the bull's eye!  I don't think we will have to worry about it anyway, because I don't think you will find a PH who will let you shoot an unwounded ele at 120, 200, or 250 yds! Maybe you will find one though, and if you do, you will be cheating yourself out of the whole idea of hunting dangerous game! It just isn't for me, or anyone I know! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Start warming up the tar and get the feathers ready... Another consideration is just what caliber you are shooting. Bullets slow down the further out they go, and this impacts penetration. On my 470 NE, for example, muzzle velocity is 2150 fps with over 5000 foot pounds of energy. At 100 yards, it is still pretty respectable, losing only about 200 fps. At 200 yards, that 500 grain bullets is now down into the 1700 fps range. Don't look now, but we are now approaching the muzzle velocity for a 45-70. Now my 416 Rigby, or the 458 Lott that I merely covet at this time, maintain respectable numbers out past 200 yards. Still plenty of penetration on most things. I'll leave bullet design out of the equation, since there are plenty of worms from the can I just opened. The game you are shooting also makes a difference. Penetrating one or two feet worth of mass is one thing; penetrating 4,5, or even 10 feet of hide, sinew, bone and water is quite another. And it all comes back to knowing your rifle and your bullets. Add marksmanship to the mix (and in that regard anything that will steady your aim should be used, if not for your sake for the sake of your prey) to round out the needs. And of course, practice enough so everything is second nature. You should have enough experience with your rifle and ammo to make the call on whether a shot is too long or not. And most African PH's are pretty darn good judges of a hunter's ability and limitations - if they weren't, they would not have a very long life expectancy. With DG, if we muff the shot, it may not be our hind parts on the line. Lose the animal, and it is apt to give the next person they meet a really bad time. Not my experience with African game, but I can think of a few times where a 200 yard shot was a no brainer, while I passed on shots well under 50 yards. You will never find yourself in the same situation more than once, and each opportunity needs to be evaluated on its own merits. At least I have never found a formula that worked all the time. If I am certain of a killing shot, I'll take it. If not, unless it is in self defense, probably better to walk away. Practice and practice some more. And get off the range. The range is good for getting to know your rifle and the capabilities of the ammo used. Range time is important and necessary. The range's biggest benefit, however, is letting you know what your rifle can do. Get out to the field to determine how you will do. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Dangerous game hunting is meant to be DANGEROUS. Taking an such a noble animal at 120 yds means you have missed the point completely-and therefore are wasting your time-or you are a nutless bastard. I have taken 3 Australian buffalo,1 Cape buffalo and 1 elephant.All on foot at close range-the elephant 16yds from the muzzle.Why would anyone want it any other way? Australia I love a sunburnt country, A land of sweeping plains, Of ragged mountain ranges, Of drought and flooding rains. I love her far horizons, I love her jewel-sea, Her beauty and her terror The wide brown land for me! | |||
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There's no point in hunting dangerous game if there's no chance for the game to be dangerous. Seems appropriate. Joe | |||
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Then I suggest you do it the way this hunter did, not with a rifle. | |||
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Then I suggest you do it the way this hunter did, not with a rifle.[/QUOTE] Probably not hard to follow that poacher....Just look for the wheel barrow tracks. From the cart he's gotta use to haul his balls around with. | |||
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A couple of years go, we hunted in Tanzania and had a Masai as one fo our game scouts. He was absolutely petrified of elephants! He did not want us to get with half a mile of one. Buffalo and lion never bothered him. We saw a herd of buffalo bunched up together in long grass - a sure sign that lions were after them. We thought we would join the party, and may be shoot a bull or two. We got to about 20 yards from them. I was following the Masai, and just ahead of him I could see a lioness between us and the buffalo! I told him about the lioness, he just shook his head, and said "come! we get buffalo!" We moved did not move much closer, as we were on a slight rise, which gave us a beterr view of the buffalo. Even then all we could see was there heads, and there was no way we could have shot at any, as they were all in one bunch. Eventually they took off, and we never saw them or the lions again. | |||
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One of Us |
[quote]Walter just said one should be naked when hunting bare hand! Saeed --- remember --- Walter probably is still of the opinion that one has to have a permit to bring a wife into Tanzania --- thus maybe the naked thing has resulted --- just a thought  OMG!-- my bow is "pull-push feed" - how dreadfully embarrasing!!!!! | |||
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If you require shooting sticks to make sure of your shot, then I am all for them. Number one goal is to kill cleanly in what ever matter works for you. 465H&H | |||
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