I have been reading the problem between Adam Clements and Mr. Miller. It brings back old memories that I had put aside after quiting AR for a long while.

These are things that should be worked out between the involved parties, Do you guys complain on here when you have a problem with your lawyer, doctor, Police chief, Sears, kids in school? No, you don't because it has no business being aired out here. When this happens on this board some of you jump in and comment on events that you have no clue about what happened other than so and so said so.. Then the outright lies start being made up and the feeding frenzy starts, and it get totally out of hand, ruining AR fro its intended use. It becomes and old ladies gossip board. Pussys attacking at long range with made up names to hide behind.

AR is a place where hunters, guides, booking agents, whoever, help folks that need hunting/shooting advise, where many of us have gotten together and made lifelong friendships, enjoyed discusing guns, hunting, and the things we love. Don't turn it into a Washington DC political race. Get a life.

I am not defending Adam, Lord knows he and I have had our differences in the past, but we have put them aside and we speak and are cordial to each other, hopefully all that is in the past and I apoligise for it ever happening, nothing was gained by it.

If those that post here would agree to not post on such topics, the topics would die on the vine, and the snipintg would stop and we could all get back to enjoying our life and the good discussions on AR.

This is my opinnion on a problem we have. If it continues then I see no reason for reasonable people to continue to post here..

If those that lie and make up shit prevail on this board then the forum has lost all credibility and let have at each other.

C'mon let Adam, Wendall, Licky and Miller work it out between themselves. It just ain't none of our business.

Sorry I got in the wrong topic, I have requested it be sent to the African forum.

Ray,

Just a question. If an outfitter can advertise a hunt on AR, shouldn't a client be able to report on a hunt on AR?

The client's report may not always be fair or complete. But the same could be said of some ads for hunts as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Ray,

Just a question. If an outfitter can advertise a hunt on AR, shouldn't a client be able to report on a hunt on AR?

The client's report may not always be fair or complete. But the same could be said of some ads for hunts as well.

Only on certain hunts.

500,
I really don't know, I just know its disruptive and nothing ever comes from it. In the first place negative publicity is as good as positive publicity.

why should anyone lay out their laundry on an internet forum. We have courts and mediators to settle disputes, not folks that just have limited knowledge of any situation.

Your sure welcome to your opinnion on the subject as far as I am concerned. I just think it would be a better board and draw more expert advise if it were not for this malady. A lot of the real experts are afraid to post here and most all the gun writers stear clear.

I think it would benifit the forum not to hold these 15th century witch hunts.

I guess we will see what the majority has to say about it and those that can't handle it can go do something constructive like golf, roping, you know the real world stuff.

Have to agree with Dan on this one....The purpose of AR is to help hunters and that includes hearing about problems with outfitters/PH's ect...

If outfitters and PH's are above board, they have nothing to worry about...most folks accept genuine mistakes are made from time to time, and very often its not the fact the mistake is made that tells you alot about the outfitter, but its how its sorted...

After reading Ray's post I was inclined to simple as - Amen!

After reading 500grains question however I would venture that Advertising - to include unsolicited "offers" - is as it should be. Thats is, up to the buyer to beware. Should a bogus seller/provider be encountered, sure a report on the incident may be useful to others, however only with substaniated experiences of those actually involved and in professional terms. The back biting and name calling is totally unapealing. As are the comments from the gallery.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:C'mon let Adam, Wendall, Licky and Miller work it out between themselves. It just ain't none of our business.

Hey Ray, just to clarify, the original post dates back to July 23, 2005. It has all been worked out since, JJ went back for another hunt and reported good things about the hunt, camp, PH, etc.

Thats good and it got worked out without AR apparantly. The hunting business is like any other business, disputes will happen, you cannot please everyone all the time.

The place to submit such claims should perhaps be SCI, the outfitters boards, the state outfiting board, the country of origin has such boards. Those organizations can "investigate" the claim and come to a sinsible, proveable, conclusion, but this cannot be done by bunch of folks who are mainly unqualified, don't have both sides of a story and worse yet some don't really care, they just want to hurt, and I assure you they will never know the real deal.

It's very hard for an outfitter to blast a client when the truth ain't pretty, and degrade a paying client, by the time he does come forth the damage has been done.

Sometime ago 500 grs. made a commit about me and how many elephants I claimed to have shot with a number of different calibers and Nitro X and some other zombies with no mind of their own, jumped on that band wagon. I never said it, they couldn't find such a post, but some (not 500) are still making such claims based on his mistake. It was buffalo, not elephant, and it was a true statement, and a bunch of folks know it was true, Saeed for one. But to date no-one has apoligised, they just chose to let it pass, when caught in their foot in mouth mistake, or say they still don't believe it.

That is what comes from these witch hunts and the people that feed off them on all of these internet talk forums, no one has to be responsible for their actions. they use fictitous names and have no addresses..

Not being on this sight for business reasons, I like to see when hunters have good and bad hunts. More information helps. If a negative report turns into a blowup, the reader learns about the character of all involved as well commentators. I get a better feel for where I might consider booking a hunt, who I might book through and book with. And finally I learn whose opinion down the road on other threads I might value more and those I will value less.

quote:

The place to submit such claims should perhaps be SCI, the outfitters boards, the state outfiting board, the country of origin has such boards.

I am sorry, but I cannot see any of these organizations effectively resolving these disputes. I for one, come to this forum to hear personal experiences, both good and bad. In all the case I am aware of, it has been the individual hunter who has reported his experience.
A lot of the real experts are afraid to post here and most all the gun writers stear clear.
I personally am really not interested in "all the gun writers". From what I can see, not being a "real expert" or a gun writer, there is plenty of the kind of experience that I am looking for, right here, already. That's why I keep coming back.
Just my 2 cents!
Peter.

I personally enjoy reading the negative comments posted regarding their experiences with PH's etc...I take them seriously when deciding on who I will spend my money with...Of course I want to hear both sides on the issue.
I stopped my subscription to The Hunting Report, since their are not enough negative comments, and I know that not everyone comes home happy!!
My 2 cents

HERE WE GO AGAIN!

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Have to agree with Dan on this one....The purpose of AR is to help hunters and that includes hearing about problems with outfitters/PH's ect...

If outfitters and PH's are above board, they have nothing to worry about...most folks accept genuine mistakes are made from time to time, and very often its not the fact the mistake is made that tells you alot about the outfitter, but its how its sorted...

I agree with Pete (and Dan too I guess). I also wholeheartedly agree with Mac!! But since its out there, again, here's my 2c...

The only caveat to my agreement with Pete's comment is that I would seriously prefer to see the negative stories after:

a) the issue has been resolved privately, or
b) every avenue to resolve the issue privately has been tried to no avail.

I think inviting the public into an active dispute between two parties is a recipe for disaster, and we have seen it here many times.

Once an issue has been dealt with to the mutual satisfaction of dissatisfaction of the parties, then I see no reason (in most cases) not to report out on what happened. We can all benefit from that, even if some agents or outfitters end up suffering for it.

My 2c, fwiw,
Canuck

I agree with Peter. As far as I know, outfitters are not regulated here in the US. No "better business bureau" to check against. As for SCI, I would not hold my breath. If it were not for this board virtually no one would be aware of the issues with Out of Africa. SCI has been well aware of that situation for some time - the result? OOA still advertises in SCI publications and has a booth at the annual conventions.

I will agree that the feeding frenzies are a bit much. If people were required to post using their real names, my bet is that it would cut down on the late hits.

But, this board is a wealth if information. Some of the things discussed here would not even enter one's mind when preparing for a Safari.

The greatest fear at least I have is taking the step to book the hunt of a lifetime (at least in financial terms it would be) without the benefit of having been to Africa or having limited experience there.

Who do you trust to give you straight information? Certainly NOT a gun scribe. First, they almost never have a negative comment about anything. Second, their hunts are typically comped, sponsored or subsidized. Third, they tend to get VIP treatment. And that third point is the stuff that is really bothersome.

If you think that some in the Safari business don't save the best and the biggest for their steady annual repeat clients or for someone that can provide a PR bonanza, there is a lot of oceanside property for sale in Arizona right now. Now not all safari operators make that kind of practice their SOP, but some do. And if it were not for this board no one would ever be the wiser as to whether they were getting the bum's rush safari package.

Take that information away from this board, and you have just another "my caliber is bigger" post fest.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve:

Well maybe so, if thats what the majority wants then I suppose thats the way it will be.

We would all like to think that we hold ourselves to a higher standard but unfortunately some get "keyboard courage" and run in where they have no business. If it wasn't so, you could believe everythig you read on this forum. As it is, you have to take things here, like the evening news or your local newspaper with a grain (5oo Grains?) of salt. Nevertheless, this is the most informative internet site I know of on my favorite topics so it certainly serves its purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have been reading the problem between Adam Clements and Mr. Miller. It brings back old memories that I had put aside after quiting AR for a long while.

McBragg, what brings you back to AR? Did you get run off another forum?

quote:

McBragg, what brings you back to AR? Did you get run off another forum?

See what I mean?

I'm wondering what originally caused 500 grains to bring back a 2-year old topic --- one that had been thrashed back and forth ad nauseum before ---- or doesn't anyone ever read the time/date stamp?

Bwanahile aka Bwana Slime,
Ahh your one of the spreaders of lies I was talking about that live under a rock and have become zombie minded, and pass on what you hear as opposed to what you know, and live in hiding.

Wow, some of you guys really get me tickled and bringing up a topic again after 2 years is really interesting, although be my guest as I have nothing to hide from anyone on this forum. A couple of points I will make as my name has been mentioned and that will be all from me.

1) I think that it is a good thing that people can give their good and their bad reports. That is what makes everything exciting and what gives everyone an idea of what areas, outfitters and countires are good to hunt. A negative report is just fine and should be aired if someone has done something wrong to a hunter and has no intention of trying to make things right. I will be the first to admit that some of the best lessons learned in life are the mistakes we make! BUT, make dam sure that there is a mistake with the person you trash on this forum before you make a negative report. A negativve report is fine and I welcome them as long as they are honest and the person writing the report has contacted the proper people and tried to sort out the problem first, then give a report on the final outcome. I do not agree with someone just trashing someone without proper notice.

2) In this case which I have been mentioned and the report that JJ made is old news now and JJ has listed other reports stating the opposite of his original report and clearly stating that everything was taken care of and he had nothing but good remarks and a great hunt. The whole problem with JJ was that he did not talk to the right people before he made his report, which made things worse. If he had talked to me from the start before making his report, it would have been a different report. JJ was treated fairly and the situation was taken care of as you can see in his other reports. There is no problem at all between JJ or myself and should not be any issue with anyone else on this forum any longer.

3) I appreciate Ray posting his comments and like he said he and I have had our disagreements in the past, as everyone has disagreements with others. It is the way and the manner that some people handle problems though that can lead to bashing and a witch hunt. There is no need for others not involved to try and bash another. If someone has a negative report to the members of this forum, that is great, but read the report and take it as it is. If you have questions about the report that is great as knowledge is power, but no need for others to chime in and think that they know the situation or the solution. Keep in mind that there are always 2 sides and on this forum there are some who thrive on controversy and make a problem even worse than what it is.

4) Keep in mind that it is almost impossible that every single hunter will be happy with their safari. Some hunters can not be pleased no matter what you do, and yes we as agents or outfitters will take the bashing for this no matter what we do. Every outfitter can tell you stories of clients they have had who were impossible and complained about everything, but that is our job to deal with all kinds of people the best way we can. This does not mean that just because a client returns from a hunt and puts a negative hunt report that the outfitter is at fault or should try to satisfy the client. When you deal with a lot of clients and when dealing in Africa, not everything goes as planned sometimes, and it makes a big difference on the personality of a client and how they are able to handle a situation and not put it out of control.

5) I will speak for myself on this, but if any client of mine has a problem, I expect them to talk to me about it first before they go and try to bash me. If a problem did arise during a safari I want to know about it right away so I can either try and fix the problem or see if we as a company actually did anything wrong. If we as a company did something wrong that was in our control, then I can assure you that we will take care of the problem the best way we can. If a client complains about something that we do not have control over such as weather, animal movement, how many animals they shoot, how many animals they saw etc. etc., then there is nothing we can do to solve this problem and the client must know that is part of hunting in wild free range areas. We simply can not control certain things and if you want to bash me or any other outfitter because it rained too much or did not rain at all, then it is simply just going over board. So, make sure that any of you who encounter a problem while on safari, talk to the right person first before you make your report, then if you still have a negative report, you can at least state that you talked to the right person and what happened. I can assure you though that with almost any reputable agent or outfitter, if the complaint is valid, the client will be taken care of. This of course does not mean that the client will get exactly what he demands, but it all depends on the situation on how things will be handled.

6) I find it a little funny that one person can list something negative and some of you will keep on and on over something that was taken care of and handled long ago. But the positive reports do not usually last very long. I have a very simple statment to make about myself for any of you who might still have a question or want to continue fueling the fire on a very old topic. Call me or e-mail me and I can give you 80 other names of clients of mine who hunted Tanzania with us in 2005 and 2006 and you will hear something very different, but then again some of you may not know how to handle so much positive reports all at once. If you do not want to spend the rest of the year on the phone with 80 some clients, then I will be more than happy to send you some DVD's of hunts that were filmed in 2005 and 2006 that will also paint a positive picture for you. I just got another DVD from a 21-day hunt in July 2006 which is the same month that JJ hunted in 2005 and you can decide on your own after watching this footage how we operate and if we have any animals in our areas!

7) I guess all of this leads me to just say that my point in all of this is be clear headed and do not rush to judgment over things. I would not be fully booked up on my 21-day hunts until 2010 if I was not an honest agent and outfitter! One or two people say something bad and all hell breaks loose for no reason at all. It is pretty simple though, most of you who tried to bash me in reality would not be hunting or booking a hunt with me anyway, and it is your way of trying to either make someone else look good that you are loyal to,or you just like to stir shit up regadless.

You have to look at the hard facts and consider the history and reputation of someone before you go taking sides. Most people with any common sense know that no matter how reputable or honest an agent or outfitter is, sooner or later there will be a bad report as that is the nature of dealing with people. What one has to consider is the honesty and reputaton of the agent or outfitter being blamed for something and look at how they have dealt with probelms in the past and if you sill have questions, just call the person and talk to them or ask for a reference list to hear what the other clients have to say. You can ask all the questions you want, but be fair in the process and you will find your answers.

AR has a number of "Hunting Reports" forums, including one for African hunting. I have found these very informative and useful from time to time.

It is important to note that these forums are not limited to great hunting reports only - they are open to "Hunting Reports" of all kinds, including reports of bad or awful hunts. That is as it should be.

It is also important to note that if anyone feels wronged by a negative hunting report, he surely can post a rebuttal.

The availability of forums such as these for the posting of unvarnished hunting reports - in which the hunter is free to include the good, the bad and the ugly, and to which anyone is free to respond - is one of the many things that make AR such a valuable resource.

By the same token, I have no idea why an old and satisfactorily resolved matter such as JJ_Miller's safari with Bundu is now being rehashed. Maybe I missed something, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Speaking as one who has recently taken a 1st guided hunt in 2005. I am happy that folks post experiences here. It gives me a bit of comfort to know who experienced people are using and in a few cases what problems are encountered. I never use posts as a basis not to check things out, however, many times problems I never thought of are exposed. If I was in a situation where I had a problem, I would probably start "nonpublic" however, I understand those who go "public" when they feel thay need to. You can also get a view of peoples personality in these posts too! So one may decide if they want to deal with someone who is less than flexible or 'grumpy'. I am happy things are in the current format. It is good education for all.

Let me just say that I watched all this unfold two years ago and how Adam and Mark handled this convinced me in part with other research to book a buffalo hunt with them. Since then I have personnally met them both and they seem like stand up guys to me. We that were not there will never know what happened but the transparancy of what they did for JJ Miller and what I have seen in my personnal dealing with both of them make me very comfortable. Having a resourse like AR to advertise on and be held accountable by is simply a good thing! Long live personal responsibility.

The thread should have been closed and moved to hunting reports. There for info but no more posting.

Posting of experiences good or bad is one thing and fine. However unmitigated bashing seems to be the norm all too often. I agree with Ray and Adam that things should try to be worked out between the appropriate parties. That does not mean one has to keep silent about the experience. I think the real issue here is once again one of being civil and conducting oneself in a gentlemanly manner. These disputes will always arise and it is how they are handled by both parties that is important. Any reports good or bad should be handled in a factual manner. Try to leave out all the emotion and drama and stick to the facts. I will add that there are way too many who seem to do nothing more than delight in stirring up trouble. I have never hidden behind a screen name. Many of you folks know me personally. Perhaps folks would be more inclined to watch how they conduct themselves if everyone did know who they were. I certainly do not claim to have all the answers but whatever happened to what used to be called good manners?

Maybe old posts should be locked out for posting after a given period of time. People could still reference them but would be required to start a new discussion.

Good show, Showbart.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

By the same token, I have no idea why an old and satisfactorily resolved matter such as JJ_Miller's safari with Bundu is now being rehashed. Maybe I missed something, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Why?
Ask the poster that raised the post after 8 months, and then look at the "rooger" threads in big bore

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=566109456#566109456

kind of a standard practice, to discredit instead of acknowledge somoeone else is correct.

typical, boring, and disruptive

Come visit the "Nickudu Files", where arguments are non-existent!

My sugestion is to read, very carefully, SAFARI12's post and act accordingly in future!

...........I'm gone!

.................

If I am reading this right the problem with JJ et al was resolved peacefully and now all parties are happy.That is good.The other issue just beneath the surface, Sheephunter and Atkinson,Pierre von Tonder; was that also resolved to everyones satisfaction or is Sheephunter still SOL?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

By the same token, I have no idea why an old and satisfactorily resolved matter such as JJ_Miller's safari with Bundu is now being rehashed. Maybe I missed something, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Why?
Ask the poster that raised the post after 8 months, and then look at the "rooger" threads in big bore

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=566109456#566109456

kind of a standard practice, to discredit instead of acknowledge somoeone else is correct.

typical, boring, and disruptive

Is it a moderator's behaviour?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Bwanahile aka Bwana Slime,
Ahh your one of the spreaders of lies I was talking about that live under a rock and have become zombie minded, and pass on what you hear as opposed to what you know, and live in hiding.

McBragg, what lies have I spread about you? Enlighten me oh wise one. Give me a break. Since you are once again gracing us with your presence then how about providing the Forum with the proof that was promised by you and Mr. Doug Chester in the Sheephunter debacle. Do you remember that? Probably not. Surely you were not lying about having all of this documentation and proof???? Please provide it now........zombie minded bwana slimes would love to see it...........

Perhaps you didn't read Saeeds latest post to your behavior, I did and I want to stay on this board... I am putting you on my no call list.

If by chance we ever meet in person, then we can sort this out between ourselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Perhaps you didn't read Saeeds latest post to your behavior, I did and I want to stay on this board... I am putting you on my no call list.

If by chance we ever meet in person, then we can sort this out between ourselves.

Ray,

It is not my behavior at issue. Be a man. What lies have I spread about you? Show me a single post. I have never deleted posts likes your truly. Where is the proof you and Doug Chester promised? You "ride back" into the forums with the same arrogant attitude and we are not allowed to retort? Don't try to hide behind Saeed...show me where I have spread lies about you and show us the proof in the Sheephunter matter that you promised.......

(and I consider it an honor to be on your no call list....)

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

By the same token, I have no idea why an old and satisfactorily resolved matter such as JJ_Miller's safari with Bundu is now being rehashed. Maybe I missed something, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Why?
Ask the poster that raised the post after 8 months, and then look at the "rooger" threads in big bore

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=566109456#566109456

kind of a standard practice, to discredit instead of acknowledge somoeone else is correct.

typical, boring, and disruptive

Is it a moderator's behaviour?

JB,
Answering a man's question and reading enough posts to "get the drift" of another's motivation?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Now I am beginning to understand why Adam wanted to keep you out of the part of the concession that he was hunting.

You tell me if you can read anything else into this?

And thats why i read the NickKudu files.......