quote:

Just too much weight and bulk for the performance it offers.

Jorge,

I voted for the Rigby but it would not be my choice. The above quote has always been my problem with the Rigby and the other big thumpers you mentioned. To me the cut off is 458 Win Mag and 416 Rem. They just seem to come in a much more carry friendly package and they have more than enough horse power any situation. Not sexy but very practical.

Mark

quote:

John, I have the .416 Rem, but have not shot it too much. I was interested in everyone's thoughts on the .416 Rem vs. the .416 Rigby.

Here ae my thoughts ont he Rigby vs Rem. In a nutshell, the Rigby's long action is a detractor. If you are going to tote that big of an action around, might as well go up a caliber. The Remington is a more practical caliber as it can be had in a shorter, trimmre action. I still love my Rigby though! jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanna:

quote:

And like you, my own pick of the 416s is the Remington, and since having one the old Rigby has been relegated to the gun safe. Just too much weight and bulk for the performance it offers.

John, I have the .416 Rem, but have not shot it too much. I was interested in everyone's thoughts on the .416 Rem vs. the .416 Rigby.

The practical difference is in the amount of powder the Rigby burns vs the Remington. The Remington achieves the same velocity with about 20grs less powder.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/416.htm

[u].416 Rigby[/u]
Federal Cartridge Company loads 4 different 400 grain bullets in the .416 Rigby case. All of them have a MV of 2,370 fps and a ME of 5,115 ft. lbs. At 100 yards the solid bullet is traveling at 2,110 fps and has 4,050 ft. lbs. of energy.

Here are some .416 Rigby specifications of interest to the reloader: bullet diameter .416", maximum COL 3.750", maximum case length 2.900", trim to 2.890".

According to the A-Square Handloading Manual Any Shot You Want loads similar in performance to those O'Connor developed can be achived by the modern reloader using H4831 powder and 400 grain A-Square bullets. 97.0 grains of H4831 gives a MV of 2328 fps, and 101.0 grains of the same powder gives a MV of 2448 fps. The latter load had a maximum average pressure of 47,000 psi. These loads used A-Square brass and CCI-250 primers, and were developed in a 26" test barrel.

[u].416 Remington Magnum[/u]
A-Square offers three factory loads for the .416 Rem. Mag., while Federal and Remington each offer one factory load. The latter uses a Swift A-Frame PSP bullet at a MV of 2,400 fps and a ME of 5,115 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 2,175 fps and 4,201 ft. lbs.

Here are some .416 Remington Magnum specifications of interest to reloaders: bullet diameter .416", maxmum COL 3.600", maximum case length 2.850", trim to 2.840".

Any Shot You Want shows that 72.0 grains of H4895 powder can drive a 400 grain A-Square bullet to a MV of 2251 fps, and 76.0 grains of H4895 can drive the same bullet to a MV of 2403 fps. The MAP of the latter load was 56,600 psi. These loads used A-Square brass and CCI-250 primers, and were tested in a 26" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanna:

quote:

And like you, my own pick of the 416s is the Remington, and since having one the old Rigby has been relegated to the gun safe. Just too much weight and bulk for the performance it offers.

John, I have the .416 Rem, but have not shot it too much. I was interested in everyone's thoughts on the .416 Rem vs. the .416 Rigby.

In the field you will never tell any difference. 2400fps with a 400gr bullet is going to perform the same regardless of which case the bullet is fired from. The Rigby has nostalgia but Remington is easier to live with for most folks.

What I like about the Rigby is that it operates at lower pressure, has no belt to go out of spec, and because of the above the brass lasts longer. The longer bolt through isn't an issue cause when operating the bolt I can't tell that there is 1/4" longer stroke.

Jorge... I am a bit surprised you haven’t mentioned the 460 weatherby... being that you are a wby man. I have been shooting and handloading Matts 460 wby and its kinda grown on me. He has a 21" BRNO 602 @10-11 lbs. He shoots it @ 2400 with 500s but has been having some fun with cranked up 400s.

Mark: The 416 Rem is a very sensible choice, but I am committed to the Hein's N-5 action which is too big for the Rem.

Pegleg: The 450 Dakota doesn't even beging to break a sweat with 500gr bullets until you approach 2450 or so. At 2350 it's jut warming up and that's what interested me in the caliber, that and the tapered case instead of a straight wall like the Lott.


smallfry: I considered building the Hein in a 460 but opted for the Dakota instead. Being a "Weatherby Purist" myself, I only like Weatherby calibers in Weatherby rifles jorge

I think you've basically reached the point where all you have to do shoot one over the weekend. Hope it won't be too much for you and that it has some mercury recoil reducers to help mitigate the recoil. Once you go over 2550f/s, you're into another power level.

Jorge,

Sorry for sidestepping your question . Ignoring the fact that one could reasonable spend a lifetime hunting this world with a qualified .375H&H and never look back, there's no question to me the .450 is the choice of your given options.

You already have a .416, you've committed to a big action, and obviously looking for a little more "spice". Given the circumstances, there's not much either one can do significantly better than the other so it pretty much comes down to a matter of taste. The .450 might be even be cheaper to shoot in the long run considering bullet options and it will always be "more" than a .416 and in with no penalties in rifle size rifle to boot.

FWIW, after about 10 years of trying a bit of this and that (and I make no claim to be an expert), I have three "go-to" rifles. A SS Ruger M77MkII in .223, an 8lbs ready SS M70 in .338 Win Mag, and an blued wood M70 in .458 Lott. They are the tangibles, the ones I keep in constant ready status, the guns I pick for 95% of my rifle hunting. But, a man can't live on bread alone. I get around that by having some kind of project rifle to test new ideas and setups to see if I'm really missing anything and all the hype floating around out there has credence.

Cheers,

Mike

I also voted 416rigby, but only because you didn't offer the 404jeffer y! I'm not recoil sensative but the 458Lott group of carts. just aren't comfortable to shoot & will get less so as you & I get older. Just ask Ray A.

Have a look at the 458 sabi its manufactured in Nelspruit South africa i rate it better than the 458 lott its out of a 500 jeffrey case



www.sabirifles.co.za

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Unless you have a career change soon and get the opportunity to produce stacks of elephants, any 416 is the way to go.

I'm with Will. IMO, the 450's really shine with elephants, but if you are only going to shoot a few I'd go with the lower recoil.

If your choice was a 416 Rigby and a 458 Lott, I might suggest the Lott since it is more than powerful enough, and can be down loaded, as can the 450 Dakota/Rigby. The advantage is that readily available 458wm ammo can be used and, in my experience, you can scrounge up 458wm even in the field if required.

JPK

Well gentlemen, I just returned from the range and I'm "probably" going to stay with my original order of the 450 Dakota. I say probably, because I still have a bit of an issue with the "white elephant" aspect of the cartridge.

No doubt if this was a British Made rifle (not that I could afford it) I'd be ordering the Rigby, but since it's an American made rifle the Dakota chambering does not seem too out of place.

At any rate to my experience: I fired a total of eight (8) rounds all factory. Three were the 400gr Swifts and the other five wre 500gr Woodleighs. The rifle had a Swarovski "PH" Model 1.25X4. The rifle probably went close to 11lb. Recoil with the 400gr slugs was very manageable and comparable to my 416 Rigby when loaded warm to about 2500.

The 500gr Woodleighs definetly fall into the "Holy-Shit, Batman!!!" realm, but I did manage to group them at 100 yards, although the rifle shot a bit low and to the left for me, but still I was surprised at the accuracy.

I shot it off the bench, but in an upright position, i.e., two leather bags filled with sand on top of each other instead of one on the forearm and on on the stock and I also pussied out and used my shooting shirt that has a PAST recoil insert. Otherwise, no friggin' way I could shoot this beast the way I shoot even my 416! I guess I'm going to get a bag full of lead shot or something if I get the 450 and have to sight it in. Definetly not a fun rifle to shoot. Oh yeah, I did fire two rounds standing up and of course that was a bit more tolerable albeit with less accuracy but still within a kill zone. So, I guess I have a few months before Gary Hein calls me with the "ok it's decision time" to make up my mind.

Of course you guys will be one of the first to know and if I go with the 416 Rigby, one of you macho men that own 450s can expect a fire sale on my present stash of 450 Dakota brass . jorge

PS: The LOTT IS NOT AN OPTION FOR ME.

Jorge,
I don't understand the "white elephant" labeling on this cartridge. Maybe you or another forumite can enlighten me as to why this is? If this truly bothers you I suggest just having the rifle made up as a 450 Rigby. The cost of brass is insignificant over the long haul.
Glad you survived the test shooting with factory loads. Load it down to 2300fps to get accustomed to it and you'll never look back.

I guess I have misgivings about having "only" a .416 Rigby as my largest rifle on a DG safari. Must admit it has performed flawlessly on Cape Buffalo and Bison as well as a few head of plains game. Would take it again without the least second thought. More would not hurt if one could shoot it well.

Really my misgivings are on the caliber of the second rifle. Last time I went with an M70 in .375 H&H. It did OK but not spectacularly well and the .416 Rigby is just soooo much more effective.

Now ... I have a DR in .470 NE and it is good but I am learning to shoot its iron sights with "old" eyes.

I like to "play" with rifles, so I decided to build a couple of Mausers. I have a smith I trade services with (knifemaking for gunsmithing) so this is possible given my limited financial situation. I decided to try a .458 AR on a Parker-Hale Mauser action. It's not unlike the performance of the .450 Dakota. Actually darned impressive. When I can get .458 AR brass or RUM basic brass that I can have engraved for caliber designation it is likely to go.

Were I to do it again, I'd end up in about the same place but I'd skip the .375 H&H step. Is recoil mild, but the larger caliber chamberings are just so much more impressive on impact!

In other words, the .416 is a terrific primary chambering and I wholely endorse it. It's the chambering of the backup rifle I'd suggest go larger just for the fun of it. If you can, keep the 450 Dakota and find a good used .416 at the right price and use it as the primary. There have been several in the classifieds lately.

John/Jorge,

The basic affliction with many Gringos is that they are always looking for the magic bullet. If the 450 Dakota was a sissy-gun, we would be looking for something bigger!

It sounds like Jorge wants a 450 Dakota and so be it. If it winds up eventually that it kicks too much we will hear about it.

When you have a close shave when hunting DG the natural tendency is to go BIG. That is why I have a Lott, though I don't much appreciate the recoil, and may never take it hunting again because I'm a sissy and don't want to lug the weight around.

If there wasn't a PH along for the ride, I'd probably be carrying the Lott.

Go for it Jorge, get the Dakota. Don't let anyone around here have the opportunity to call you a sissified, candy-ass, wimp because you didn't get the 450!

John: The "White Elephant" moniker is my own. It's just a very non-standard caliber as is the 450 Rigby and when Dakota goes tits up even though I have plenty of brass, well the "white elephant"/"Edsel" issue comes to my mind that's all. Mike, thanks for the comments and they make perfect sense but I already have a very nice 416 Rigby

Will: Your concern is appreciated but as you know I already have a 416 Rigby the RSM I had slightly customized. Tell you what though, if I do wind up getting the Rigby, you can have the AR crowd call me a pussy at the AR dinner in Dallas! jorge

Jorge,

You're set then! .416 Rigby and .450 Dakota would be a fine battery and the two you've got or will have are fine, fine rifles. You're set indeed!

If the full house .450 Dakota is a little much for your shoulder (and I doubt seriously that it will be), down load it to 2200 fps with 500 gr Woodleighs and it'll be fine. 45 calibers at that kind of velocities have an outstanding reputation for good terminal performance!

Will,
I never thought of the 450 as a "sissy gun" by a long shot! And I know there is no such thing as a magic bullet, but some bullets do have more effect on an animal than others. A well placed first shot is the best one of all! I have owned and tried many rifles of much larger caliber, double rifles included. My problem with anything larger is the gun weight necessary to make the gun shootable for me. So the 458 bore is what I settled on after using the 416s and the Lott. I'd have loved to tried my 500 A-Square but it never happened due to the gun needing a two wheeled cart to move around after I got it to where I could stand shooting it.
My self imposed weight limit is 10 pounds for a big bore...the 500 A-Square was just too brutal at anything under 12 pounds...as was the 475A&M. As age creeps up I might even go down in weight a bit more. If I remove the scope and mounts from my 450 it only weighs 8.5 pounds.

Jorge, there is no shame in admitting a cartridge is just too much for you to handle effectively. That well placed shot is worth 100 times more than any flinch induced miss or gut shot. Use the largest you can handle properly and you'll be set for whatever game you choose to pursue.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:

Jorge, there is no shame in admitting a cartridge is just too much for you to handle effectively. That well placed shot is worth 100 times more than any flinch induced miss or gut shot. Use the largest you can handle properly and you'll be set for whatever game you choose to pursue.

Jihn,

I think that pretty much sums it up.

My Lott weighs 8.7 lbs. and the 416 Taylor weighs 7.5. Any new rifle has to weigh less, not more!

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by John S:

Jorge, there is no shame in admitting a cartridge is just too much for you to handle effectively. That well placed shot is worth 100 times more than any flinch induced miss or gut shot. Use the largest you can handle properly and you'll be set for whatever game you choose to pursue.


Jihn,

I think that pretty much sums it up.

If perfection in reality is the best set of compromises, a midweight, well balanced .450 that you can shoot well, throwing a 500 grainger in the neighborhood of 2200fps with mild pressures sounds perfect!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by John S:

Jorge, there is no shame in admitting a cartridge is just too much for you to handle effectively. That well placed shot is worth 100 times more than any flinch induced miss or gut shot. Use the largest you can handle properly and you'll be set for whatever game you choose to pursue.

Jihn,

I think that pretty much sums it up.

My Lott weighs 8.7 lbs. and the 416 Taylor weighs 7.5. Any new rifle has to weigh less, not more!

Amen to that, Woll.

Jorge,

Have you thought about the .470Mbogo?

About the same case capacity as the .470 NE so the old Nitro loading of 2150fps are a breeze right up on through @ 2700fps possible. No wimps there....

No matter your descision please do keep us informed as your rifle project comes together. Work in progress photos when you get them...!

Best Regards,
Dave

Dave: That's a bit too out of the mainstream for me, heck, the Dakota approaches the "wildcat" arena too close as it is already. The rifle's being built by Hein and if they send me pics I'll sure post them. jorge

A 500 gr. bullet at 2700 fps! What in the world would you with that? And in what, a 15 lb. rifle? Handy, eh?

quote:

A 500 gr. bullet at 2700 fps! What in the world would you with that? And in what, a 15 lb. rifle? Handy, eh?

Will,

I think 15 pound smight be too light.

The air to air ammo used in WWII and Korea for the 50 caliber was a 500 grain flat base spitzer at about 2,900 fps. . . from a 32 inch long barrel. And the M2 weighed about 85 pounds.

So 2,700 fps would be about right in an elephant gun.

PS How did you get your 416 down to 7.5 pounds and what kind of sight do you use? (Im sure if I ordered your book Id find out, so I will have to do that!)

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

quote:

A 500 gr. bullet at 2700 fps! What in the world would you with that? And in what, a 15 lb. rifle? Handy, eh?

Will,

I think 15 pound smight be too light.

The air to air ammo used in WWII and Korea for the 50 caliber was a 500 grain flat base spitzer at about 2,900 fps. . . from a 32 inch long barrel. And the M2 weighed about 85 pounds.

So 2,700 fps would be about right in an elephant gun.

PS How did you get your 416 down to 7.5 pounds and what kind of sight do you use? (Im sure if I ordered your book Id find out, so I will have to do that!)

Andy

I cannot respond to anyone that doesn't have my book. That is akin to saying to didn't get around to buying Taylor's books.

The gory details I posted here some time ago, which you can find by the search. And in the African Hunter magazine which I presume you will now subscribe to!

Who has shot the 460 wheaterby?? that gives you a good thump

I own the CZ 458 Safari Classic Lott and it will shoot a 500 gr Monolithic Solid bullet at 2330 FPS and it has over 5000 FT. LBs. at 50 yds to go threw an Elephants waffel bone to the brain.

Tee hee! Worried about "white elephants" and heaven forbid a wildcat! Jorge, lighten up and live a little!

The point about the down loading is very good advice.

I have loaded 500-grainers in the 470 Mbogo to 2150 fps using H4831 and to 2685 fps using RL-15. No pressure signs. Yep, it is very close to 470 NE case capacity at about 50% higher pressure allowable.

You can do a similar thing with a 450 Dakota, but maybe 2150 to 2450 fps would be a better velocity bracket for the slow and fast powders in the smaller 450 bore with same bullet weight, for the recoil sensitive.

I jumped on a SIGARMS Mauser Banner, Prechtl-actioned, 450 Dakota.

If you decide to get rid of your 450 Dakota brass, I'd love to add it to my stash, and I will praise you for being "White-Elephant-Wise" if you do.

quote:

Tee hee! Worried about "white elephants" and heaven forbid a wildcat! Jorge, lighten up and live a little!

Rip: maybe it's my background but I believe in that underwear should always be white and calibers standard. While the 450 Dakota's far from being a Wildcat, it's definetly not very popular. I leave the wildcats and weird shit for all you "forty pound head" smart guys!

As far as "living a little", at over 600 carrier arrested landings and over half of those at night, I think I got that angle covered ! jorge

PS: PM me if you want some brass. I'm going to stick with the 450 in all probability, but I have enough to last me two lifetimes of elephant hunting . J

how about a classic 404 load of 400@2150 in your rigby.

Stick: I load my 416 Rigby to 2400 fps with 400gr Swifts and the recoil is not an issue. believe me, a full power (245o fps) 500gr Dakota's recoil is a whole other universe! jorge

PS: I've always loved the 404 Jeff and someday hope to own one.

it sounds like you have a 458 itch so why not go with a 458 500 gr@ 2150 and there will be the same recoil as the 400 @ 2400
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm

Thanks for that bullet calculator. That's fun to play with. My plan is either to use the 450 North Fork or the 500gr Swift pushed to about 2300 or so. The rifle should weigh in at around 10.5/11lb. jorge

We used the 416Rigby on water buffalos with great succes i vote for it.Juan

you could get away with a long loaded 458 win. if you go with the north forks you could have lots of canalure options


load it to the max oal of a win mag and maybe get it to the 5th "canalure"/

Inasmuch as all the calibers mentioned will work just fine on elephant, I would take the one that kicks the least, the 416 Rigby and its usualble for elk and Deer in the USA...That is why the .375 H&H is so popular, it too will work on anything including elephant.

If I only planned to shoot one elephant bull in my life, I don't think I would own any DG rifle over 416 caliber. It just ain't needed. A 450/400 in a double or a 416 Rigby in a bolt gun would be all I would ever need. When you get up to a 500 grain bullet at over 2,100 fps all the fun of shooting has disappeared. That is especially true (the need) if you will only hunt one bull elephant. They are much less likely to charge than a cow. If your going to hunt multiple cow elephants in the Jesse then a really big bore, 450+, comes into it's own.

465H&H

465, you make perfect sense, but I have to admit that I'm a gun nut (as most of us here are as well ) and since I already have a 416 Rigby, I just HAD to have a 45 bore. Like I stated previously, if I could afford it, I'd opt for a 450#2 in a nice double, but I ratehr spend the money on hunts.

I sold a bunch of my collection to pay for this 450 so I'm not out any money out of my "hunt funds" as it were. I have a good plan to work up loads for this rifle and I know where my limit is...I think. jorge