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I was looking for a particular hunt and saw this in the terms and conditions portion. In the event of a hunt for dangerous game (including leopard, lion, elephant, buffalo, hippo, crocodile, rhino, but not limited to), or in the event of a plains game hunt in an area that holds dangerous game, the client remains responsible for any payments that may be due to the private land owner(s)/ government/ conservancy members, in the event that a dangerous animal has to be shot in defence of human life, whether shot by the PH, the client, or anyone accompanying such hunt, and whether the shot animal was targeted or not, wounded or not, pursued or not. It struck me as odd. I would've thought an animal legitimately shot in defense of life would have no cost upon the hunter. Opinions? | ||
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That is odd. If you were pursuing or targeting the specific animal, then yes, as the animal would likely be your trophy, if hunting dangerous game. But otherwise-NO WAY. | |||
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I sure would not sign up for that. Suppose the PH has to shoot an elephant, you’re out a huge chunk of change. NRA Patron member | |||
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I could see a PH getting an itchy trigger finger if a trophy whatever just mock charged. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I see this as a possible way to set the client up for a huge add on fee. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I would never sign up with that outfitter. There's no way that I'm paying a trophy fee for an animal that I'm not hunting that the PH feels has to be killed. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Utter BS! As stated by UEG, unless "it were the animal being pursued or targeted, then yes". You ought to post this outfitter's name so he can be dissected.  | |||
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OK, who was it that had that condition? I have asked that question before and been told that if it was a defensive untargeted shooting and the PH decided it had to happen, it was not the hunter's fault- no money- even if the hunter did fire the fatal shot. Sounds fishy. | |||
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Not African, but many places, if the client shoots and draws blood, tghen he/she owes for the animal. I would never sign a contract that listed those parameters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Tar and feather him too!  | |||
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.... "in the event that a dangerous animal has to be shot in defence of human life" .... This is not a question of shooting and wounding an animal, rule of which holds true just about anywhere that if you shoot and wound an animal you pay the full trophy fee. | |||
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You have to stipulate which country. If the outfitter can point to where that may be enacted in law, it's one thing. Otherwise, avoid him, and check with the local professional association if there is one. | |||
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Guys, that is my contract. It has never been necessary for a client to pay such an animal, but I have put in that clause to protect me from all possible outcomes. In the case that an animal is shot in self defense, MET does an investigation, and all cases so far, they have ruled that the shooting was legitimate, so no charge to anyone. Remember that in Namibia, an outfitter has to have insurance to cover him in case of professional liability. So if I or one of my PHs would shoot an animal for "Fun", and try and stick it to the client, then he can certainly claim it from our policy. I had this part written in after an incidence with a client where we approached a specific elephant bull, full on intent to shoot it. When we came close, and set up the sticks, the bull swung around and charged. Remember we have already decided to shoot this bull. The client bolted, and I had to shoot the animal. Then he wanted me to file a self defense "claim", which I refuse to do. He dissected my contract, but in the end paid. That's when I decided to write this into the contract to protect ME. I have always told clients that's not happy with this T&C to scrap it from the hunting agreement, provided they can come up with something better. So, now's your chance, give me a better way to put this, bearing in mind that my contract is not pages long.... The operating word here is MAY.... not WILL In the event of a hunt for dangerous game (including leopard, lion, elephant, buffalo, hippo, crocodile, rhino, but not limited to), or in the event of a plains game hunt in an area that holds dangerous game, the client remains responsible for any payments that may be due to the private land owner(s)/ government/ conservancy members, in the event that a dangerous animal has to be shot in defence of human life, whether shot by the PH, the client, or anyone accompanying such hunt, and whether the shot animal was targeted or not, wounded or not, pursued or not. Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Karl S, The quick and easy answer to any bad situation is to change your contract terms, BUT I think relying on your contract to protect you from bad decisions on who to take on as a client, will not work out to your satisfaction in the long term. | |||
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It should state "May not Shall Shall" | |||
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oops, too many shalls | |||
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I certainly would never sign a contract with that clause. I was told by all 3 PHs I have hunted with in the past (RSA, Zim & Zim), that a self-defense shooting is not chargeable, and is just considered part of the cost of running a safari operation. I can see where hunting on private land, where all the game belongs to the landowner, might induce the landowner to come up with such a rule, but I would never hunt there. Also I would never sign a contract where the hunter/client is responsible for any medical bills that are incurred by the safari staff while conducting this hunt. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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I am allergic to silly contracts. This one I will never sign. | |||
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I would not think twice about hunting with Karl under contract. In my experience he's one of the most honest, serious, and dedicated PHs I've hunted with. This is just a CYA clause for circumstances like the one described. | |||
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PS: Karl, was that the Larry "Go Pro" incident? :-) | |||
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Thanks Biebs.... As to who it was, I would not shame anyone on a public forum, so no names, no pack drills... Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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I wouldn’t put it in... if the government finds it not a self defense shooting, it’s whoever’s pulled the trigger problem. And yes, I understand that can put the PH on the line, but they are the professionals there and supposed to be in charge. If the client does not follow directions, then it’s on them, but that’s it. (The client freezing or running is not following directions) Just my view of it. BTW, something like this is much more likely to be abused by an unscrupulous outfitter than make some cheap bastid actually pay said bill.... | |||
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When I hunted with Wayne Van Den Bergh of Nyamazana Safaris I was pleasantly surprised there was no contract. I of course had my daily rate wired ahead of time, brought cash for tips and part of my trophy fees, and Wayne was fine with me wiring the rest - which I did the first business day I got back. | |||
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I would find somewhere else to hunt if that was a condition of the contact. | |||
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If I were booking a hunt with someone as reputable as Karl, I would not let that stand in my way. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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This is my thought as well. When I read the original post I was thinking "no way I'd go for that"! Then when I saw it was Karl, I figured there was some bad history that caused this CYA clause. Context, context, context. 0351 USMC | |||
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Having hunted with Karl numerous times, I wouldn’t hesitate a second to sign his contract. Having said that, I have never seen a contract in all those hunts. We agree on the hunt and cost, shake hands, and that’s it....Trust is a great thing. Thanks again, Karl, for some fantastic memories.  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Like all contracts, you are very unlikely to satisfy all parties right off the bat. I know I will never satisfy all people, no matter what my contract reads. But, and I have said it before, if its a deal breaker to any specific hunter, I am open to discussion on it, like on any other kind of contract. I try and run a business thats fair both ways, but have been burned too many times by non paying clients than the other way around. Thanks jdollar, bwana cecil and tarbe for the support! Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Agreed 100%. Wayne is top notch in my book. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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If I was in your position, and get burnt by crooks who do not pay the money they promised to pay, I will plaster their names on every single hunting forum on the Internet. It is people like these who ruin it for the rest of us. The people I hunt with never give me a contract to sign, nor a bill to pay. I get a call to transfer a specific sum of money, and it is done the same day. Never a question of being over billed or not paying what is owed! And that is how it should be! | |||
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Saeed, yes that is how it should be... but it is not! Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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If you make the names of the crooks who did pay you your fees known, you will be making sure they do not do the same to others. I have absolutely no respect or sympathy for criminals on either side of the fence. They should named and shamed. | |||
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I think it is great that so many of you have the relationships that you do with your booking agents/Outfitters/PH's that you don't feel the need for contracts. On all four of my safaris to Africa I had a contract. Everything spelled out up front and no surprises when it came time to "settle up". Been to South America to shoot birds at eight different lodges so far (should have been nine). With one exception, every time that we did not have a contract there were some "surprises", ranging from being "nickled and dimed" for little things (more an irritant than a significant issue) to one lodge owner/outfitter increasing some of the major costs of the hunt (e.g., shell cost) at the end of the hunt. The ninth lodge we should have gone to we booked through a well known booking agent who refused to provide a contract and we got royally screwed-lost our entire trip cost and business class airfare (this has been posted on the Bird Shooting Forum so I won't rehash it here). Long story short-I won't go anywhere any more without a contract. "Never, ever, book a hunt with Jeri Booth or Detail Company Adventures" | |||
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drj: I certainly don't go on a trip without understanding the costs; all outfitters lay those out fairly well in an email ahead of time. I just don't insist on a contract; certainly some outfitters do. Cabott Pitts insisted I sign his on my brown bear hunt last fall, and I was fine with it. In the case of Karl's issue, I can definitely see both sides...you get close to an ele and the client freaks out when it charges...it isn't like it simply appeared out of nowhere and charged. The language Karl uses is fairly broad but as he said, if you come up with something you can both live with, go hunting. If not, don't. I think the internet is a great accountability tool. Yes, some guys say it is trial by internet, but I liken it more to that old show "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?"...the crowd is most often right. One bad post about an outfitter isn't going to kill him. At the same time, however, outfitters and PHs shouldn't be shy about using AR when they get screwed, eg a client promising to wire his TFs but failing to do so. | |||
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On my first hunt to Zim I was after bull elephant. Prior to setting up the hunt, I made a list of what I wanted clarified in order to avoid surprises. One of the things I specified is that I would be able to shoot any size tusker for the agreed upon trophy fee. The outfitter's agent agreed, after receiving verbal permission from the outfitter and it was put in the contract (just a handwritten agreement as to price, trophy desired, etc) on the outfitter's invoice. I received a copy for my records of course. During the hunt, I was extremely lucky and killed an old bull elephant was tusks just under 60 lbs a side. When the PH reported the news to the Outfitter via radio, the Outfitter started in about tusks of that size cost some additional amount over the trophy fee. The PH quickly told the Outfitter that according to my contact, I could shoot any size elephant at the agreed upon trophy fee. That shut the Outfitter up. Without written proof, I probably would have had to pay several hundred (or perhaps thousands) of extra dollars for my trophy. Having nothing written down is great as long as there are no surprises, but better safe than sorry IMO. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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If I were a PH who had a client who wanted to hunt dangerous game and the client wanted to get up close to get the rush and adrenalin going I would state clearly to the client: "I can do that for you but you must take into account this is dangerous and any charging animal killed or wounded will be charged to YOUR account". The PH is the responsible leader on the set. If any animals charging and the hunt was conducted 100% under the PH guidance to avoid a dangerous situation and yet it still happened.. the charging animal(s) must as I see it be free game if they survive the attack. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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I've had to sign very few contracts when I've hunted. However, contracts are meant to outline the legal rights and responsibilities of the parties, period. I remind people that a proper contract is enforceable according to its terms, no matter what someone may have told you verbally. I laugh when people tell me that the other side told them not to worry about a contract provision, and that the contract provision is just a formality and it won't be enforced. Sorry, but when shizz happens don't be shocked to find out that the provision will be enforced by the aggrieved party. | |||
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The problem I see is, "The Hunter/Client" is responsible for other peoples action, that he has no control over. It would be difficult and unfair to hold an individual responsible for an others actions. | |||
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Thanks for the opinions, guys. Karl - Thanks for jumping in. I had no intent of calling you out, just looking for opinions from much more experienced hunters than I. I'm considering a 2020 own use elephant hunt and am sure we could come up with language that would satisfy both of us. | |||
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Bingo. I don't buy this " but I would neve r do that" line in hunting or anything else. | |||
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