Has anyone thought of buying a hunting ranch in Africa? Or participating in a syndicate to do the same? If you have given this some thought, what do you see as the risks?

Yes. Even had an offer recently that was intriguing. But, do the pro and con list and it will cool your jets real fast.

Better to go hang out, hunt some, and stay as observer for two or three months if you have that kind of time. Maybe do some apprentice and gopher work, check baits, build blinds, shoot rations, etc while there to stay busy and offset some cost. For about what a buff hunt costs, a guy might be able to stay as long as three months. Personally, I'd love to do that.

I'm sure that a lot of us have thought of buying a place in Africa. I actually know someone who owns a ranch in SA. I believe he is selling it at the moment.

The obvious risk is that the government can take it when ever they want, then you are out your entire investment. This is even riskier if you will be an absentee landowner.

The other risk is that you may not be able to get your money out when it is time to sell if the area becomes unstable.

Realistically the only reason land in Africa is within reach of the common man is because war, drought, unrest and government land-grabs have kept the prices down. If things were stable and property rights were respected, as they are here in the first world, very few would be able to afford land in Africa as the prices would be sky-high.

Garry Kelly told me "Don't invest money in Africa that you can't afford to loose." Best advise I ever received in connection with investing in Africa.

Thought about buying a home in Cape Town for about 5 minutes but as Will said I think visiting for a long visit makes far more sense.

Mark

Yep,

I got over it in about a day. Just to much downside risk..

A one- or two-year lease might be a better way to go, if they'll allow you some hunting rights.

Only if I became super rich and didn't care about losing money.

A house in Arusha would be nice, but as others have said, not unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

Bought a beautiful place in northern Botswana and would probably be there right now if I hadn't gotten wiped out by the financial collapse and had to sell it. It wasn't a hunting ranch; just a small holding of a few hundred acres.

If you're in the bush you have to either be there more or less full time or develop it enough to bring in quality on-site management ... and enjoy the solitude.

Before that I looked at property in Marloth Park, which borders Kruger. You can pick up a place right now for US$60-70,000, but back then there was a pending land claim, which has since been settled, and prices dropped to maybe a third of what they are now. That was a missed opportunity but I may end up there yet.

quote:

but back then there was a pending land claim, which has since been settled,

Until the next round of political BS comes along.

Hmmmm...
Have a PH as a live in ranch caretaker with built in clients...
26 investors with two weeks a year time share.
Could be a good business model.

I did. Loving every minute.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Garry Kelly told me "Don't invest money in Africa that you can't afford to loose." Best advise I ever received in connection with investing in Africa.

Thought about buying a home in Cape Town for about 5 minutes but as Will said I think visiting for a long visit makes far more sense.

Mark

Great advice..

I personally know 3 individuals who have bought property in both Zimbabwe and South Africa.

One bought a large hunting farm in Zimbabwe, and despite originally given assurances that it would not be taken by the government, he lost it.

Another bought a hotel in South Africa, and not long after someone set fire to it!

A third bought a house in Cape town, and not long after was mugged.

I have not heard from him since.

I have had several offers that seemed very tempting, and I thought better of it and said no.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Bought a beautiful place in northern Botswana and would probably be there right now if I hadn't gotten wiped out by the financial collapse and had to sell it. It wasn't a hunting ranch; just a small holding of a few hundred acres.

If you're in the bush you have to either be there more or less full time or develop it enough to bring in quality on-site management ... and enjoy the solitude.

Before that I looked at property in Marloth Park, which borders Kruger. You can pick up a place right now for US$60-70,000, but back then there was a pending land claim, which has since been settled, and prices dropped to maybe a third of what they are now. That was a missed opportunity but I may end up there yet.

Trust me when I say that's one place you need to avoid like the plague!

Land claim is still a possibility and there is no way to keep the place safe because it's (A) right on the border and (B) has a public road going right through the middle of the estate and the two things combined means it's a highway for illegal immigrants and there's also at least one squatter camp very close by.

Although not usually enforced (ATM), there's also a clause in the contract that says you can only live there for (IIRC) 9 months in any year.

There's also the issue that the newly amended Immigration Act makes it extremely difficult to get permanent residency and even a long term holiday visa can only be extended (in country) once. After that, the applicant is required to return to his home country to make the application to stay longer. (How's that for African logic!)

Then there's the issue of what will happen if/when Malema comes to power....... I personally think he will and that he'll make Mugabe look like a saint when he does.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Garry Kelly told me "Don't invest money in Africa that you can't afford to loose." Best advise I ever received in connection with investing in Africa.

Mark
I agree wholeheartedly, Africa is just not the place to make long term investments such as real estate.

On the other hand, there are some short term investments that can have huge payoffs. All the manufacturing and civil engineering type of investors know that with the political instability in Africa they must make their money right now, because tomorrow everything could be gone. this means that they have to demand huge profit margins. Unfortunately this drives prices up and is a big part of the reason Africans are so poor.

I dream of buying a place in the Eastern Cape, where I have a lot of friends. Probability of doing it: Just under 1 %. But dreams are still dreams

Hope you all wrong with the way our beautiful country is going,

Just bought another 1311 hectares in the Timbavati........

regards

JK

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Hope you all wrong with the way our beautiful country is going,

Just bought another 1311 hectares in the Timbavati........

regards

JK

I also hope I'm wrong but will be very surprised indeed if I am.

Congratulations on your new purchase & sincerely hope it works out well for you. The Timbavati is a beautiful area!

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Hope you all wrong with the way our beautiful country is going,

Just bought another 1311 hectares in the Timbavati........

regards

JK

You certainly have a very beautiful country, and I do hope we are all wrong.

quote:

Then there's the issue of what will happen if/when Malema comes to power....... I personally think he will and that he'll make Mugabe look like a saint when he does.

Sage words, very sage words indeed!

Malema is a joke wont go any where in South African politics, as for land claims this is a different kettle of fish,

Only difference in SA to Zimbabwe is that the Government is paying big money towards this, there is a land claim on the cards now with Mala - Mala nature reserve and government forking out more than $100 million to owners if it goes through.

JKH

I agree that Malema is a joke but I'll bet a pound to a pinch of the brown stuff that the mad bastard will be president someday and my guess is within the next 2-3 presidential terms.

As for the governmunt paying for land claims........ as I see it, that'll continue until they run out of money or Malema takes over and then the land claims will continue but the governmunt money will not.

Again: I hope I'm wrong but don't think I am.

My wife and I accepted a job offer to manage a ranch in Namibia. It ended up falling thru when we couldn't get work permits

I've said this before but it doesn't matter which individual African country one is talking about, they're ALL making it increasingly difficult for whites to live in Africa and ALL increasingly adopting a policy of Africa for the Africans.

They're happy to take our our money and our expertise etc but considerably less than happy to have us there.

quote:

they're ALL making it increasingly difficult for whites to live in Africa

Even Botswana? What about Namibia?

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Malema is a joke wont go any where in South African politics, as for land claims this is a different kettle of fish,

Only difference in SA to Zimbabwe is that the Government is paying big money towards this, there is a land claim on the cards now with Mala - Mala nature reserve and government forking out more than $100 million to owners if it goes through.

Anybody who thinks that Malema is a joke had better stop a bit and think. Somebody is backing him. Just ask yourself, "Who is paying for all the 'red shirts and berets,' vehicles and such." They are all over the place.

Yup! Money that is not theirs and is in fact becoming more and more difficult to source as the tax base shrinks and entrepeneurs take the gap??? Dimbaza and Fort Jackson industrial areas are being stripped [actually stolen] right down to the steel structure frames.

Oh where have all the whiteys gone
long time passing [ with due apologies}

Russ

Pretty much everywhere is quietly tightening immigration requirements for whites...... the most common ways are higher financial requirements and what they term permanent residency often has to be renewed so in fact is a long term visa rather than proper PR. - Swaziland now gives permanent residency if you buy a property there but that PR has to be renewed every 2 or 3 years so there's bugger all permanent about it.

Another example is a few years ago, RSA amended it's immigration act rather than introduce a new one which meant it could be slipped under the radar and avoided lots of debate & publicity etc....... In reality, it meant that a lot of whites who were there on long term visas and owned property, ran businesses, employed staff and paid taxes had to leave whilst at the same time, blacks who had walked across the border and had no education, job prospects or money etc can just walk into a RSA Home Affairs office and on admitting being an illegal immigrant would there and then be given an RSA ID card and made a proper permanent resident.

I can't remember the exact requirements for Namibia but do remember we dismissed it as not a going proposition.

ADDED

Botswana is similar to RSA.

I looked into Namibia a few years ago. If you are not born there it will cost you a fortune to get your permenant residency status. Unless your last name is Pitt or Jolie. If you have alot of money to spare I think it could be done. The advise I received from a Namibian attorney friend was that I needed to open a business and employ several of the native peoples if I wanted the government to let me in.

In Botswana I think you just need to prove you are Chinese and they will let you in.

I have thought of buy a time share down on the Cape to spend a while after a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I have thought of buy a time share down on the Cape to spend a while after a hunt.

If one is going to invest then that's probably the best way to do it and buying on a secure estate also gives protection against crime and also makes land claim considerably harder..... At the moment, RSA law forbids land claim on residential estates and although that can always change it's still a lot harder to do when there's a lot of people owning small plots of land rather than one owning a large piece. Even harder if it's time share.

Oh and if anyone is interested, I've got a plot of land close to the Blood River monument I'd be delighted to sell for something in the region of US$20K.

I was never into buying a place anywhere.I believe there is no place like home.I can recall while my dad was giving me a lift to the airport to go hunting in Makuti, he said to me as soon as we arrived at the departures section-``see if you have money you can go anywhere you want anytime``

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Hope you all wrong with the way our beautiful country is going,

Just bought another 1311 hectares in the Timbavati........

regards

JK

You certainly have a very beautiful country, and I do hope we are all wrong.

Me too!


.

Nope. Would never consider it - not any country in Africa and only a few in Europe.

It is extremely difficult to do. I tried in a couple of countries to buy office space vs renting at exhorbitant rates. Still better off not buying.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was never into buying a place anywhere.I believe there is no place like home.I can recall while my dad was giving me a lift to the airport to go hunting in Makuti, he said to me as soon as we arrived at the departures section-``see if you have money you can go anywhere you want anytime``

Your dad is a wise man.

I take the view that in a place where simple burocratic processes cannot function smoothly, I decided against owning something there as liquidity would probably be zero.

There is a perceived arbitrage for overseas owners in the differential between interest rates and hence returns on investment but it only ever ends up being a transfer to currency risk.

If I could kiss goodbye to the money I might consider it but that's a really big and unlikely "if"!!

K

Better for Americans to buy there, Italians to buy
there etc. Buy properties at home to rent to
others who wish to visit your "neck o' the woods"
and rent at foreign locations that you wish to
visit, long term or short vacation...

Let's separate EMIGRATING from BUYING property for recreation and hunting. Those are two independent things. Presumably one can buy something, solo or with other like-minded people, without emigrating. And this decision could be purely an investment (ie you are buying it because you think you will make some money long term), or a way to hunt longer/more often/for less money, or both.

What it boils down to, in my mind, is

1. Would you get bored hunting the same place repeatedly?
2. Are there any upsides to hunting on your own land in terms of the hunting laws? (For example, can you shoot a problem elephant as a landowner? Can you participate in night culling exercises that are normally verboten?)
3. How much money would you really save (owning property is not "Free" ... fences and facilities must be maintained, staff paid, etc etc ).

Not to mention, tax attorneys pls advise, your trip down there each year is now a business trip, right?

Russ

You raise a good point as always but problems/answers are (at least partly) going to depend on type of property & the individual country being referred to.

However buying a game farm etc & not being there all the time to oversee things is a recipe for disaster.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Another reason not to buy a game farm in RSA!

That article paint's a very bleak picture.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Another reason not to buy a game farm in RSA!

Run! Run for your lives!