I just saw in "RIFLE SHOOTER" that a hunter took a cape buffalo with one shot from a 30-06 with a 220 grain bullet. Apparently he had a shoulder injury that kept him from shooting a big bore.
Just curious to know what is the smallest caliber you have seen kill buff?
KC

I saw a skinny old cow buff that had been killed by three Tanzanian game scouts with three FN FALs in 7.62x51mm. They rolled up and shot her from their Toyota.

Mutiple hits in the rib cage with some pass throughs. Not very sporting, all things considered. Nor is the 7.62 a DG round, per se. But the military ball ammo did the job.

Elephant have been killed by gangs of poachers armed with the 7.62x39mm AK-47.

That kind of thing proves nothing.

Still, the '06 with 220 grain bullets has killed most everything on earth, and under true sporting conditions, too. Would I use it on buff? Well, let's just say it wouldn't be my first choice.

Allen Day has killed buffalo with a 300 WM when his big bore didn't arrive.

The 7.62X51 has been used to kill many buff in culling operations. Of course this is in the hands of very experienced men and not in a "sport hunting" situation. For the average hunter trying to hunt buffalo with a small caliber rifle would be more or less a stunt. I know a farmer who (accidentally) killed a 200lb. hog with an air rifle trying to scare it out of his wife's garden.
Disrupt the CNS and it doesn't matter how big the hole is! The question is if you trust risking a several thousand dollar trophy fee on a wounded animal for the sake of using a small caliber? Not advised!

What makes a buffalo harder to kill in a "sport hunting situation" than in a culling operation???

quote:

Of course this is in the hands of very experienced men

While the american huntermay not have as much experince shooting buffalo form what I've read due to cost and availability of ammo in africa I'll take american rifle skills over the average African any day.
Dr B

The hunter you read about had a special permit to take a Buffalo with his little 30-06 220 gr. This hunter, Sam Fadala, is also a very experienced person, that has probably taken as much big game as most African PHs. In any event, the 30-06 is not legal to hunt Cape Buffalo any place in Africa, nor is any caliber of less than .366 dia, in some, and .375 in most places. Along with the bore size, there are energy requirements as well. Some larger calibers do not qualify either, because they don't develope enough energy.

Permits are sometimes given for smaller chamberings for handicaped use, and this is the reason Sam was allowed to use the 30-06 for buffalo. These permits are a real risk for the PH, because he is held responsible for the safety of the client hunter, and the dispatch of the animal if something goes wrong. The PH can also be held responsible if the animal gets away, and hurts, or kills others who have nothing to do with the hunt. Not to mention the insult to the Buffalo, when for every one shot kill with a small rifle, there will be hundreds that require many rounds, and long tracking of needlessly wounded animal, while he suffers.

Allen Day shot his Buffalo with a 300 Win Mag, because his 458 Win Mag suffered a broken stock, and was put out of service. The Gov scout authorized the use of the 300 WM to finish the hunt!

None of the above, nor any other Cape Buffalo, successfully, taken with sub-caliber rifles, justifies the use of rifles, pistols, or calibers that are not suited to this type of hunting. It is not only a stunt shoot, but a disrespecting of a fine animal. If you can't handle the use of real DGRs for this type of game simply because you don't like recoil, and have no disability,then you should leave the hunting of such animals to those who can, and use your 30-06 for muledeer!

Any firearm is capable of killing any animal that walks, crawls, or flies, if the shot is perfect, but that doesn't make it a "PROPER" rifle for the purpose, and, IMO ethical!

I really do not see what is invoking this type of response.
My question was simple.
"What is the smallest caliber YOU have seen to Kill Buffalo".
Your answer might be 375 H&H or 9.3 X 62 or 338 Win Mag. Maybe 470 NE is the smallest you have seen.
Nowhere did I ask for opinions on using any one caliber.
If you cannot stick to actually answering the QUESTION then why dont you start a new discussion on your opinion.
KC

KC before you get too excited, this is a forum for discussion. Your question is pretty straight forward but my first thought is why are you asking?
Expect folks to reply, it's what we do here. If it's way off topic, well, no cyber police.........yet.
BTW, the 06 w/ a 220gr solid was pretty muchj a std. after Teddy R. hunted Afric aw/ an 06.

KC Carlin
Sorry your post landed you in the middle of an old argument. About what is a "proper" and / or legal DG or buffalo caliber? At some time in the past the PH's in Kenya decided to designate legal minimums for client hunters to use on DG. I believe that since Kenya was a British colony and give the British love of big bore rifles they far exceeded the minim necessary for a clean kill. Then most of the other African countries adopted similar laws requiring more gun than is needed for clean kills.
My opinion is strongly disagreed with some of the AR members who forget that more buffalo have been killed with a .303 than any other caliber and many have been killed with even smaller calibers.
If in fact you would like to take a Buffalo with a smaller rifle for what ever the reason $100 to the game scout will get you permission.
Dr B

fredj338,
I realize that this is a forum for discussion, I am simply saying that people should discuss the actual topic at hand and not go off on tangents. Which in my opinion happens at an alarming rate here at AR.
As for why I am asking I was simply curious. I saw the article and knowing the minimum caliber requirements that are in place in virtually all African countries it came as a suprise. I too recall reading about Tedddy Roosevelt's experience in Africa with an 06, but lately other than Don Allen's hunt with Mark Sullivan when he toook a buff with a 300 I haven't heard of any such accounts.
I have no hidden agenda for the thread. I certainly wasn't trying to persuade anyone to use smaller calibers. Nor am I trying to attack the gentleman who because of a injury used an 30-06. I was simply curious, and I thought that it might be an interesting topic. I guess I was wrong about that!
I think that everyone should READ the discussion topic and then decide whether or not they want to join in the discussion at hand or not.
Seriously, how many discussion's that start out with a guy saying " I have a (Generic brand rifle) in a (Generic caliber) and I would like to know if someone has used this (generic bullet)" Only to have someone go off about God knows what and not even respond to the question at hand.
Everyone has opinions, and I guess I have just stated some of mine! KC

KC..........yes I see that happen all the time. Ask a question and away it goes. Seems to be a common problem.

Kind a like asking what someone thinks is a good load with the 110 Accubond in the .25-06 and you are told it is cheaper to use Hornady SST's.

KC, for the benefit of the impressionable among us, it is often wise, and generally beneficial, to point out that what can be done is not always or even usually what should be done.

It is laudable to point that out, and I would suggest that making that clear is perhaps a necessary predicate to any response to a query such as yours. In any case, I am certainly guilty of that perceived crime.

No one with any DG hunting experience wants to be suspected of touting marginal caibers for such purposes. Except, of course, Karamojo Bell!

Meaning nothing the least bit personal, I would only observe that, if one's skin is thin, then one must not sally forth on a skateboard, or even an internet African Big Game Hunting forum.

Mrlexma,
I suggested a discussion, not on what I feel is right or wrong just a discussion about what calibers others have seen used to kill buffalo. I took no sides, I didn't try to impress anyone with ballistics, I simply thought it would be a fun discussion.
What suprises me is individuals who try to win an argument when there is no argument to win!

Best of luck to all this hunting season

PS- How does one sally forth on a skateboard?

While caliber minimums as set by sport hunting authorities may be respected by foreign hunters I would bet that for the country's residents this is rarely the case. There are probably many examples of buffalo taken with 7mm or 30 caliber cartridges or even smaller. I would also guess that much of the poaching of elephant and rhinoceros is done with relatively small calibers.

One Cape Buffalo with 9.3x62 and 286grn Woodleigh solids
Two Cape Buffalo with 9.2x62 and 300grn Swift A Frames.
ozhunter

KC,

Smallest 6.5 MS and it worked just fine as has the 303 Brit. The most worthless, 12 ga slug.

375 H&H.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
fredj338,
I realize that this is a forum for discussion, I am simply saying that people should discuss the actual topic at hand and not go off on tangents. Which in my opinion happens at an alarming rate here at AR.
As for why I am asking I was simply curious. I saw the article and knowing the minimum caliber requirements that are in place in virtually all African countries it came as a suprise. I too recall reading about Tedddy Roosevelt's experience in Africa with an 06, but lately other than Don Allen's hunt with Mark Sullivan when he toook a buff with a 300 I haven't heard of any such accounts.
I have no hidden agenda for the thread. I certainly wasn't trying to persuade anyone to use smaller calibers. Nor am I trying to attack the gentleman who because of a injury used an 30-06. I was simply curious, and I thought that it might be an interesting topic. I guess I was wrong about that!
I think that everyone should READ the discussion topic and then decide whether or not they want to join in the discussion at hand or not.
Seriously, how many discussion's that start out with a guy saying " I have a (Generic brand rifle) in a (Generic caliber) and I would like to know if someone has used this (generic bullet)" Only to have someone go off about God knows what and not even respond to the question at hand.
Everyone has opinions, and I guess I have just stated some of mine! KC

Well, Mr Carlin, if I'm limited to a one word answer, then that would be:

.223 Rem!

I recall AD writing that he shot a lion with his 300 WM after his big bore broke. Perhaps he shot a buffalo too??

In any case of course it can be done as a the ribs don't do much to protect the lungs or heart in many animals. On the other hand those beasts are dangerous but if you have a PF there with a big bore then it can be done so they have proven.

I was under the, aparently, misguided opinion, that a discussion was the offering of not only a "YES" or "NO" answer, but the qualifying of that answer, by background that others may not be aware of, even if the person asking the qiestion knows the reasons for the YES or NO answer.

The origenal poster on this string used 38 words to ell us about something he read in a gun rag, to qualify why he was asking the question, Yet the answer is to be only a dirrect answer without any disqualifing words about the use of the rounds he is asking about.

I felt, since the gun rag didn't, nor did the origenal poster, offer an explanation of the fact the this isn't a good idea, then the question answered by simply nameing a cartridge without explanation, was not only irresponcable, but was needed for those reading these things, nothing more!

People must remember when we post any question on the internet, you're not only asking for yourself, but are voiceing the question others want an answer to, that require more than a one word answer! I suspect the line thta got the questioner's back up was the line,

quote:

If you can't handle the use of real DGRs for this type of game simply because you don't like recoil, and have no disability,then you should leave the hunting of such animals to those who can, and use your 30-06 for muledeer!

That line was poorly structured, and should have included the words, in parentheses,( the generic YOU) because it was not aimed at the person asking the question, but at the general public! The answer to my second post, which was intended to be at the end of the first post, but was inadvertenly left out,and should have been added as well, and wasn't, so I'll add it here again! .223 Rem!

I'm sorry my post offended anyone, but the information it includes is valid, and I believe is part of this DISCUSSION, as it should be, and for that I do not appologize!

I'll simply leave you to your string, and you may select how everyone can answer here, without my interuption! BYE

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
I recall AD writing that he shot a lion with his 300 WM after his big bore broke. Perhaps he shot a buffalo too??

In any case of course it can be done as a the ribs don't do much to protect the lungs or heart in many animals. On the other hand those beasts are dangerous but if you have a PF there with a big bore then it can be done so they have proven.

Read a book from Anno Hecker.

He killed a problem buff with one shot in the head with the 7x64 Brenneke with the frangible H-Mantel bullet! He was very happy because the bullet penetrated the head and the brain on just about four meters without a problem.

He wrote: "Thank you to RWS"

I find this interesting.

quote:

7x64 Brenneke with the frangible H-Mantel bullet

I admittedly have no experience with the H-Mantel bullet, but being called frangible I would expect that it would not hold up well against "hard" targets. What I find interesting is that I have personally seen 180gr 0.308" Remington Core-Lokts explode on buffalo skulls. I would have thought a frangible would have been even worse. Live and learn.

Imo with the H-Mantle, Tug and TIG bullets from RWS the front half is made of soft metal which fragments for maximum damage while the solid back section acts like a solid.
ozhunter

So these RWS H Mantels sound very similar to the American Nosler Partition. If that is the case then I understand how they are "tougher" than the old Remington Core Lokt.

Thanks

The smallest caliber I've seen kill a buffalo was a 375 H&H.

In reading Capstick's book, mention is made of a one shot kill (not by Capstick) on a Cape Buffalo with a 22 Hornet and two one shot kills on Elephant with the 22 LR (also not by Capstick).

The projectile from the 22 Hornet hit the buff just behind the ear and those of the 22 LR in each case hit just behind a front leg as the animal moved the leg forward.

And of course the .22 kills more large bovines in any given year than any other caliber-- at the slaughter house. The range may be a little close for cape buff.