Hunter/PH fatalities by Big 5

02 January 2011, 23:25

Strut10

Maybe I should give a little more background.

I'm in need of tossing some figures (real and actual) to some guys who are convinced that a 30-06 with a 220 gr. bullet or a .338 WM and a 270 gr. bullet are all a guy would need for a Big 5 stopper rifle (since Bell and others could kill elephants with 6.5's and 7's).

02 January 2011, 23:37

ivan carter

not sure about the statistics however your use of the word "stopper" insinuates the rifle would be used in a charge scenario- it will not have the penetration on elephant , and greatly limits the margin for error on all the other 4. bell would have used side brain shots and heart lung shots with the lighter calibres on elephants - making apparent the difference between stopping and killing - can the big 5 be killed by the calibres you mention , yes , but not in a charge scenario.

i hope that this helps your argument !

02 January 2011, 23:41

ddrhook

kind of a mute point since 375 cal. in the minimum legal caliber you can use today. you can stop almost anything with small caliber weapons if you hit the the kill zone first time every time.

02 January 2011, 23:52

ddrhook

PS ya what Ivan said

03 January 2011, 00:00

Strut10

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
not sure about the statistics however your use of the word "stopper" insinuates the rifle would be used in a charge scenario- it will not have the penetration on elephant , and greatly limits the margin for error on all the other 4. bell would have used side brain shots and heart lung shots with the lighter calibres on elephants - making apparent the difference between stopping and killing - can the big 5 be killed by the calibres you mention , yes , but not in a charge scenario.

i hope that this helps your argument !

Ivan....... thank you for your insight. And it should help. But I am in one of those "bang your head against the wall" type of arguments with a handful of barstool experts. I have already used your line of thought to no avail. I'm thinking that raw data might be the only thing that could win this one for me.

I'm also thinking of just walking away from it, letting stupid be as stupid does.

03 January 2011, 00:11

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by Strut10:

30-06 or a .338 WM are all a guy would need for a Big 5 stopper rifle (since Bell and others could kill elephants with 6.5's and 7's).

Killers, YES....Stoppers NO !

When Bell & Co. snuffed a shot (and they did) the bigger bores came into action - Bell favored the 450/400 as his back up rifle

03 January 2011, 00:16

GeoffM24

Whether the number is 0 or 100 I'm not sure it helps you prove that you need a bigger rifle for stopping power.

A shot into the brain or spine of any animal will stop it. A shot from a .577 nitro express into the guts won't stop an animal.

A close miss of the brain on an elephant will sometimes stun and is more likely to turn an elephant but a brain shot with a 220 grain 30-06 is a better stopper then a close miss with a large caliber.

If my shot was going to slightly miss the brain I'd rather it be from a large caliber then a small one but neither are as good as a hit.

03 January 2011, 00:30

GeoffM24

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
not sure about the statistics however your use of the word "stopper" insinuates the rifle would be used in a charge scenario- it will not have the penetration on elephant , and greatly limits the margin for error on all the other 4. bell would have used side brain shots and heart lung shots with the lighter calibres on elephants - making apparent the difference between stopping and killing - can the big 5 be killed by the calibres you mention , yes , but not in a charge scenario.

i hope that this helps your argument !

220 grain 30-06 bullets and 270 grain .338 bullets have a sectional density which is the same or greater then the old standards of .416 400 grainers and .458 500 grainers.

The bigger bores certainly have a different effect but I'm not sure penetration is lacking at all in the 220 .30 caliber bullet or 270 grain .338 caliber bullet.

03 January 2011, 04:01

oupa

quote:
I'm also thinking of just walking away from it, letting stupid be as stupid does.

Sounds like the only solution not to mention the best one. "...you prove nothing by besting a fool..."

03 January 2011, 04:05

470Evans

I'd find another bar.

03 January 2011, 04:07

SGraves155

quote:
Originally posted by oupa:
quote:
I'm also thinking of just walking away from it, letting stupid be as stupid does.

Sounds like the only solution not to mention the best one. "...you prove nothing by besting a fool..."

Yup. Nor can you win an argument against an unreasonable know-it-all.

03 January 2011, 04:12

Mad Dog

Hell, buy them another drink, tell them they are right, then walk out just shaking your head...

maddog

03 January 2011, 06:35

Strut10

Thanks fer the barroom wisdom (and the laughs), fellers.

I believe I'm letting this one go.

03 January 2011, 11:00

KMG Hunting Safaris

Strut10, if you are looking for hard facts, PM me. I will pass on Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson's email address to you. He has shot, and I speak under correction, over 500 buffalo. He is also the author of " The perfect Shot" guide for shot placement on African Game. A must have for anyone thinking of hunting in Africa. He's knowledge about ballistics are unmatched when it comes to dangerous game. He will be able to give you all the nitty gritty details about Ballistic coefficients,KO values and so on for your argument.

03 January 2011, 11:20

Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Strut10:
Does anyone know of an actual statistical record of how many hunters/PH's have actually been killed while hunting the Big 5?

I doubt, assuming some sort of statistics are even kept, that they would indicate with what and by whom the animal that killed them was shot, if at all. PH's killed by animals wounded by clients would not add any useful information to the argument. And poorly shot animals, whether by the client or the PH, don't tell one anything about how good the caliber (and what about the bullet?) may or may not be. Lastly, sectional density does not indicate a measurement of penetration. A 300 grain .375 caliber bullet has good sectional density, but so does a 175 grain 7mm bullet, but they don't penetrate equally. I won't add terminal velocity into the equation, but it also matters. By the way, how much does a cloud weigh?

04 January 2011, 05:21

Strut10

quote:
Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
Strut10, if you are looking for hard facts, PM me. I will pass on Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson's email address to you. He has shot, and I speak under correction, over 500 buffalo. He is also the author of " The perfect Shot" guide for shot placement on African Game. A must have for anyone thinking of hunting in Africa. He's knowledge about ballistics are unmatched when it comes to dangerous game. He will be able to give you all the nitty gritty details about Ballistic coefficients,KO values and so on for your argument.

Marius........

I aprreciate your help. I will, however, keep your gracious offer in my back pocket for the time being........unless the boneheads want to persist in the discussion from their end. I've tried to wash my hands of it.

04 January 2011, 05:26

Strut10

quote:
Originally posted by Wink:
quote:
Originally posted by Strut10:
Does anyone know of an actual statistical record of how many hunters/PH's have actually been killed while hunting the Big 5?

I doubt, assuming some sort of statistics are even kept, that they would indicate with what and by whom the animal that killed them was shot, if at all. PH's killed by animals wounded by clients would not add any useful information to the argument. And poorly shot animals, whether by the client or the PH, don't tell one anything about how good the caliber (and what about the bullet?) may or may not be. Lastly, sectional density does not indicate a measurement of penetration. A 300 grain .375 caliber bullet has good sectional density, but so does a 175 grain 7mm bullet, but they don't penetrate equally. I won't add terminal velocity into the equation, but it also matters. By the way, how much does a cloud weigh?

Wink........

Your assumptions are spot on.

The actual reason, though, for my inquiry for data was basically to demonstrate to the "30-06/338 WM stopper rifle" crowd that these critters really DO wish to kill you back. One comment from one of these guys was "they ain't armor plated".

I reasoned with them, then, that, I'd seen my grandad's .22LR DRT gads of 2000 lb. steers. Therefore, the .22LR must be a fit Cape buffalo gun. Deaf ears.