AR Members - As per Matt Graham's request, I have created a separate thread to request help from all of you. Can someone with more pull than I at SCI - ask the organization to produce a full accounting of the much publicized $1million that was raised for "Lion Conservation" at the 2013 annual SCI convention in Reno, NV???

Its been a full year since this historic fund raising night, but since then there has been little info pertaining to the whereabouts of the money? I've heard from reliable sources that little of the money has yet to be used in the name of "Lion Conservation"? And secondly, if as Dr. Lane Easter has previously told me - and he stated in the other SCI thread, the money has largely been ear-marked for a potential - legal fight after the USFWS/CITES listing.

Isn't it possible to find out both the use of the money to date, and the future intended use of the money as well? Its a simple request for factual info, and not a debate that should intimidate any of the SCI folks from engaging in this conversation.

Any help would be appreciated?

Thank you,

Specifically...Joe Hosmer and Dr. Al Maki would be the ones to ask.

do you really think SCI is going to give an accounting of what they do with money raised in light of $200k expense accounts for the president, corporate credit cards for EC members, and $1400 dinners for officers in Geneva? good luck on your quest, Don Quiotix( sic??)

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
do you really think SCI is going to give an accounting of what they do with money raised in light of $200k expense accounts for the president, corporate credit cards for EC members, and $1400 dinners for officers in Geneva? good luck on your quest, Don Quiotix( sic??)

I expect you are probably right, but asking can't hurt - can it?

I believe Brett is going to look into it.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
do you really think SCI is going to give an accounting of what they do with money raised in light of $200k expense accounts for the president, corporate credit cards for EC members, and $1400 dinners for officers in Geneva? good luck on your quest, Don Quiotix( sic??)

Where is the ref to the 200,000 expense account for the pres?

I believe the mention of the 1400 dinner was one the Larry Rudolph or John paid out of their own pocket. Please correct me if I got that wrong.

read the transcript more closely. several references are made about the president's expense account..... not too mention the other references about other write off expenses. Larry does a good job of stating( for the camera) that he paid some costs( for booze) out of his own pocket. of course, he knew the camera was rolling. i don't, for a second, believe his cock and bull story about him being an innocent victim of a vendetta. he was just another leech on the body politic. unfortunately the body politic is SCI- first for hunters!

Just wondering if it may be helpful to gain info. by inquiring on the " African Lion Hunting Management and Ecology" post site below?

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
Just wondering if it may be helpful to gain info. by inquiring on the " African Lion Hunting Management and Ecology" post site below?

I didn't do so, cause it seems less people like further down the page.

Seveal years ago when my wife was a chapter president the issue came up at international about first class airfare. They ended up voting to eliminate it but you should have heard many of the big wigs bitch!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
do you really think SCI is going to give an accounting of what they do with money raised in light of $200k expense accounts for the president, corporate credit cards for EC members, and $1400 dinners for officers in Geneva? good luck on your quest, Don Quiotix( sic??)

Gentlemen:

This SCI fiasco concerns me a lot. However, these expense accounts MIGHT not mean anything. I travel a lot in my profession. I can tell you that my expenses are a hell of a lot higher than the expenses reported in the transcript. Between flying over 200,000 miles a year and spending over 100 nights a year in hotel rooms, it is pretty damn easy to run up bills like that especially if international travel is involved.

You could be right Larry but for me it's also about their entitlement attitide.

quote:

I travel a lot in my profession. I can tell you that my expenses are a hell of a lot higher than the expenses reported in the transcript. Between flying over 200,000 miles a year and spending over 100 nights a year in hotel rooms, it is pretty damn easy to run up bills like that especially if international travel is involved.

Larry:

You are a professional conducting yourself as a businessman whose multiple trips far and wide are in the interests of your business.

These trips are also productive (maybe not all) in that your forages abroad generate an income which offsets the cost of these trips.

I have reservations that the same can be said for the SCI conferences and entertainments bills at home and abroad.

Gentlemen:

My point is that should Dr. Rudolph have gone to a dozen legitimate conferences/meetings in other countries, he could run up a big tab quickly.

Make no mistake the SCI debacle pisses me off.

quote:

My point is that should Dr. Rudolph have gone to a dozen legitimate conferences/meetings in other countries, he could run up a big tab quickly.

And seeing it is not his money to freely squander, should also be held accountable for his expenditures while attending these legitimate conferences. IMO any and all funds used by SCI in their promotional activities belong to the membership, to whom they are ultimately accountable.

In your case, its YOUR hard-earned money to spend as you desire but I'm pretty sure that if you are accountable in any way to your partners (if any) you would be honest enough to exclude any expenses not normally foreseen in a business trip.

Aaron- Not trying to hijack! I would tell you to reach out to Joe Hosmer.

I find it interesting that you guys are wanting to slaughter these guys who do give up their free time, to serve as presidents etc...of these type of organizations.

At the end of the day, it cost money to be a worldwide organization, and take money to send officials to meetings...and I don't think they should be required to donate their time and their own money. Whatever their reasons for being involved, at the end of the day, it's a huge commitment...and the financial obligation in addition to expenses is great!

There's a big reason why normal joe's aren't the heads of these type of organizations.

For all of you Blasting Larry R. I've actually spent some time with him, and for such a big wig, he couldn't have been more down to earth and a joy to spend a few days with. You would have never known that he was a past president/big wig at all.

You can crap on the SCI awards program, being a big wig, collecting species, at the end of the day, he loves to hunt. No one can argue that, he's likely spent more days in the field than 99% of the people on this site. Hunting/SCI was Larry's life, and all he's been trying to do is find justice.

You guys constantly crap on SCI about it being corrupt, here's one guy trying to expose and do something about it!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
AR Members - As per Matt Graham's request, I have created a separate thread to request help from all of you. Can someone with more pull than I at SCI - ask the organization to produce a full accounting of the much publicized $1million that was raised for "Lion Conservation" at the 2013 annual SCI convention in Reno, NV???

Its been a full year since this historic fund raising night, but since then there has been little info pertaining to the whereabouts of the money? I've heard from reliable sources that little of the money has yet to be used in the name of "Lion Conservation"? And secondly, if as Dr. Lane Easter has previously told me - and he stated in the other SCI thread, the money has largely been ear-marked for a potential - legal fight after the USFWS/CITES listing.

Isn't it possible to find out both the use of the money to date, and the future intended use of the money as well? Its a simple request for factual info, and not a debate that should intimidate any of the SCI folks from engaging in this conversation.

Any help would be appreciated?

Thank you,

Lion Campaign Update

Please see the attached document in the link. Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns regarding the "Fighting for Lions" campaign. You can visit www.fightingforlions.org for additional information.

After looking at the information posted here by Mr. Freeman, seems SCI is doing a lot more than the whiners here on AR? Whiners, please list exactly what it is that you have done on this topic and included exactly how many $$$ you have spent. Not too much to ask, since SCI has been asked to do the same. Thanks.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International) Life Member
Sabatti "trash" Shooter

PS - Whiners, please list the exact amount of $$ you sent to SCI for this project. FWIW, my contribution to the 1 Million Dollar Lion Fund was a check for $100.00 and a postage stamp.

Larry,

I might have missed it, but I could not find any figures of how much has been spent on anything??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Larry,

I might have missed it, but I could not find any figures of how much has been spent on anything??

Mr. Saeed,

The SCI Foundation is meeting this week during the SCI Convention. Though I am not yet at the Convention, I will be soon. I will try to get the breakdowns of expenditures.

In the mean time here is some information that you have been provided in the past regarding SCI Foundation's expenditures in African Conservation projects.

2013 projects
 Namibia and Zambia Leopard Population Research
 Support Existing Lion Research
 Human Wildlife Conflict Mitigation
 Non-Detriment Finding Support
 African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Zambia
 African lion aging techniques
 Population census in Zambia and other range states
 Anti-poaching efforts
 Addressing threats to lion populations

Past Accomplishments (2007-2012)
• Africa Wildlife Genomics, Genetics and Health – 2012, 2011, 2010: $61,500
• Zambia Lion Project – 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2007: $270,300 (total)
• Regional Guide to Aging Lions In Zambia -- 2010
• Namibia Leopard Survey – 2010: $62,500
• Malawi Lion Survey – 2010: $20,000
• Published “Conservation Status of the Lion in Malawi” – 2010
• Tanzania Lion Literature Review – 2009
• Tanzania Lion Survey – 2009: $50,000 + $46,000 from SCI
• Published “Conservation Status of the Lion in Tanzania” – 2009
• Mozambique Lion Survey – 2009: $45,538.20
• Mozambique national lion workshop – 2009: $22,019
• Published “Conservation Status of the Lion in Mozambique” – 2009
• Published Namibia’s Lion Management Strategy – 2009: $5,000
• Published Zambia’s Conservation Strategy and Action Plan for the Africa Lion – 2009: $3,000
• Kalahari Wildlife Assessment: Predator survey via spoor counts in Botswana – 2012, 2008
• ZiMoZa transfrontier boundary project – 2002 through 2008
• ZiMoZa Human Wildlife Conflict Workshop – 2008: $9,997.90
• Mozambique lion desk survey (literature review) – 2008
• Mozambique lion field survey (qualitative survey) – 2008: $45,538.20
• Zambia Lion Aging Project – Dr. Paula White – 2007 and 2008
• Namibia national lion workshop – lion management plan – 2008: $20,000
• Southern Africa Elephant Management Strategy – 2007 and 2008
• Human Wildlife Conflict: Perspectives and Attitude Assessment Survey – Tarangire Plains 2007: $19,000
• Zimbabwe national lion workshop – lion management plan 2006, republish in 2008: $20,000
• Regional Conservation Strategy for the Lion, Western and Central Africa – 2005/2006
• Regional Conservation Strategy for the Lion, Eastern and Southern Africa – 2005/2006
• Database Workshop for Southern African Directors of Wildlife Conservation Departments – 2008: $14,933
• Best Practices of Trophy Hunting Workshop – South Africa 2007: $29,300
• Assisted with drafting of a revised Wildlife Policy in Kenya – 2007
• Ethiopia Wildlife Department GIS Program and Computer Upgrade –2006/2007
• Ethiopia Mtn. Nyala population and habitat research project – 2006/2007
• African education and empowerment grant – PHASA – ANNUAL: $20,000
• African education and empowerment grant – NAPHA – ANNUAL: $18,000
• SCIF humanitarian blue bag program – ANNUAL
• Facilitate annual government to government meetings at SCI Convention, in Washington D.C., in Africa, at CITES meetings – Annual
• Scholarship Program: Pretoria College for Technical Education
• Community Uplift in Tanzania – Constructed two solar-powered medical clinics outfitted with fresh water filtration systems in Tanzania in conjunction with the Friedkin Conservation Fund, located in Uvinza and Mfereji –2008.
• Community water development in Kenya – 2009.

AWCF (2002-2012)
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Botswana 2012: $47,630
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Swaziland 2011: $65,670
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Zimbabwe 2010: $10,471
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Malawi 2009: $65,000
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Namibia 2008: $61,321
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Mozambique 2007
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Tanzania 2006
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Mauritius 2005
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – South Africa 2004
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Zambia 2003
• African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Botswana 2002

Most of these "accomplishments" do not represent a line item amount. I am curious has to the haphazardness of the report. Just wondering. Also are some of these reports available to read? I am not throwing stones here. It's good to hear some of the SCI positives.

Jeff

Nelson,

Thank you for posting these details here.

What I could add comes to just over US$1,000,000 spent by SCI since 2002.

That is for 11 years.

While the question asked by Aaron was for the million that was collected in donations last year.

I would appreciate any further details you can give us.

Dear Jeff,
The Mozambique, Malawi, and Tanzania lion management plans are available at http://www.fightingforlions.org/research.

If there are other reports from this list that you'd like, please just let me know. You'll have to pardon any delay in response as we're planning for the start of the SCI convention.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Most of these "accomplishments" do not represent a line item amount. I am curious has to the haphazardness of the report. Just wondering. Also are some of these reports available to read? I am not throwing stones here. It's good to hear some of the SCI positives.

Jeff

Gentlemen - PLEASE KNOW THIS, I am not trying to slaughter anyone as "Oryx" might indicate - quite the opposite. I'm not sure if he was talking to me or others?

Regardless, I simply want to know/see where the $1million is/has gone too - that was raised for lion conservation at the SCI 2013 convention?? I have been told by what I consider to be a couple of different, but reliable sources - that little has been done with it yet? I don't know the answer, that's why I am asking the question.

Look, I just want to see progress for the lion - from the $1million raised in 2013, that was said to all be specifically ear-marked for the lion and nothing else.

NelsonFreemanSCI - Sir, thank you. I have not yet looked through the link you posted, but I certainly will.

Regards my friends,

quote:

Originally posted by NelsonFreemanSCI:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
AR Members - As per Matt Graham's request, I have created a separate thread to request help from all of you. Can someone with more pull than I at SCI - ask the organization to produce a full accounting of the much publicized $1million that was raised for "Lion Conservation" at the 2013 annual SCI convention in Reno, NV???

Its been a full year since this historic fund raising night, but since then there has been little info pertaining to the whereabouts of the money? I've heard from reliable sources that little of the money has yet to be used in the name of "Lion Conservation"? And secondly, if as Dr. Lane Easter has previously told me - and he stated in the other SCI thread, the money has largely been ear-marked for a potential - legal fight after the USFWS/CITES listing.

Isn't it possible to find out both the use of the money to date, and the future intended use of the money as well? Its a simple request for factual info, and not a debate that should intimidate any of the SCI folks from engaging in this conversation.

Any help would be appreciated?

Thank you,

Lion Campaign Update

Please see the attached document in the link. Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns regarding the "Fighting for Lions" campaign. You can visit www.fightingforlions.org for additional information.

Nelson - Unless I missed something, in the first link you provided I see nothing that addresses my direct question? What am I missing here??

And look, when I am asking you questions sir - I am being sincere, please know that. I'll hold my criticism or applause until I see the facts. For now, that's all I am hoping for - just the correct info.

Aaron,
I was not referring to you when I mentioned "slaughter"...I was referring to the general comments of people tearing down Larry R. Again, not trying to hijack the lion money issues...I think you're right in inquiring where those funds are located!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Most of these "accomplishments" do not represent a line item amount. I am curious has to the haphazardness of the report. Just wondering. Also are some of these reports available to read? I am not throwing stones here. It's good to hear some of the SCI positives.

Jeff

Totally agree with Jeff. At least from my point of view, I don't think anyone would say that SCI does NO GOOD for wildlife/conservation. I certainly would never say that.

Mr. Neilson,
I don't believe you've missed anything. There were no exact numbers attached to the document. It was a progress report. However, we will be in Las Vegas this week where this information will be available. If we can spare some time between now and the next week, I'll try to get additional information.
Nelson

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Nelson - Unless I missed something, in the first link you provided I see nothing that addresses my direct question? What am I missing here??

And look, when I am asking you questions sir - I am being sincere, please know that. I'll hold my criticism or applause until I see the facts. For now, that's all I am hoping for - just the correct info.

Nelson,

Thank you for the hook up on the link. I look forward to reading it.

Best

Jeff

If anyone is wondering, Nelson Freeman is the Deputy Director if Goverernment Affairs for SCI.

By definition he represents where the rubber meets the road lobbying for conservation and hunters rights.

This the part of SCI that should concern us the most.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
If anyone is wondering, Nelson Freeman is the Deputy Director if Goverernment Affairs for SCI.

By definition he represents where the rubber meets the road lobbying for conservation and hunters rights.

This the part of SCI that should concern us the most.

Jeff

Exactly Jeff.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Aaron,
I was not referring to you when I mentioned "slaughter"...I was referring to the general comments of people tearing down Larry R. Again, not trying to hijack the lion money issues...I think you're right in inquiring where those funds are located!

Gotcha man, thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
If anyone is wondering, Nelson Freeman is the Deputy Director if Goverernment Affairs for SCI.

By definition he represents where the rubber meets the road lobbying for conservation and hunters rights.

This the part of SCI that should concern us the most.

Jeff

A warm welcome to Nelson, and with all due respect to him and to what he does politically to help our cause, isn't he the wrong person to be answering questions on where the money is going for conservation in Africa??

I would have imagined SCI would have someone who is specifically entrusted with this part of conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nelson,

Thank you for posting these details here.

What I could add comes to just over US$1,000,000 spent by SCI since 2002.

That is for 11 years.

While the question asked by Aaron was for the million that was collected in donations last year.

I would appreciate any further details you can give us.

OR you could just say that it was over $1M spent between 2007 and 2012 - that's six years, shown above.

Nelson - Thanks for engaging Accurate Reloading - I hope you've got your flack jacket and helmet!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

A warm welcome to Nelson, and with all due respect to him and to what he does politically to help our cause, isn't he the wrong person to be answering questions on where the money is going for conservation in Africa??

I would have imagined SCI would have someone who is specifically entrusted with this part of conservation.

Are you expecting an auditor?

Nelson - Sir, thank you for that. I sincerely look forward to seeing how to date, the $1million has been specifically utilized?? Certainly the Lion needs it now, more than ever!

As a side note - could you possibly get an answer to this question for me too?

Despite pleas from all angles including the scientific community as the most prevalent - why when asked to adopt the "Huntable Lion Definition", which is nothing more than a conservation minded guideline, did SCI not only refuse to do so, but refused to either create one of their own, or at the very least take some sort position in the matter period??

To date, I've seen nothing at all that represents the position of SCI - as it pertains to what they believe is good lion hunting practices, that they "recommend" to their members (both hunters/PH's and Outfitters) when participating in a "Wild" Lion hunting Safari? A guideline, a definition, something with substance that says - here's how we see it, and here's what we are recommending to our members. In fact, I know the USFWS was and still is greatly concerned that SCI - the organization they consider the biggest hunter/conservation group in the world was not willing to adopt the original definition that was in fact co-authored by who is considered most of the World's Leading Scientists in the field of the African Lion? Even more concerning to the USFWS was the fact that SCI did not either produce a guideline/definition of their own, or at the very least take a real conservation minded, well thought out position in the matter either? I think they, and the rest of us were certainly hoping for an expecting a lot more from the biggest organization in the world that is "First for Hunters".

Again, a sincere thank you for your time/effort in this matter. I for one, do greatly appreciate it.

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nelson,

Thank you for posting these details here.

What I could add comes to just over US$1,000,000 spent by SCI since 2002.

That is for 11 years.

While the question asked by Aaron was for the million that was collected in donations last year.

I would appreciate any further details you can give us.

OR you could just say that it was over $1M spent between 2007 and 2012 - that's six years, shown above.

Nelson - Thanks for engaging Accurate Reloading - I hope you've got your flack jacket and helmet!!

Matt: That's good of course, but in the case of this thread - I specifically want to know about the $1millon raised at the SCI convention 2013 for Lion conservation, and how to date the money has been allocated? Again, no reason Nelson needs a flack jacket with me - I truly just want to know the answer. I have no intention of shooting the messenger. I appreciate his willingness to help.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nelson,

Thank you for posting these details here.

What I could add comes to just over US$1,000,000 spent by SCI since 2002.

That is for 11 years.

While the question asked by Aaron was for the million that was collected in donations last year.

I would appreciate any further details you can give us.

OR you could just say that it was over $1M spent between 2007 and 2012 - that's six years, shown above.

Nelson - Thanks for engaging Accurate Reloading - I hope you've got your flack jacket and helmet!!

Matt,

Here we have two sides.

SCI with all their secret dealings in everything they do.

AR which is an open forum where people like you and me can post whatever comes to our mind, and others can show why they agree with us or disagree.

A sort of comparing chalk to cheese really.

Even at US$1M spread over 6 years as Matt suggests, that's US$166666 per year and doesn't explain the US$1M that was claimed to have been raised for lion conservation last year and that doesn't appear to be been used.

Reducing the time span from 11 years to 6 years might make the figures look marginally better but it surely doesn't come close to making them look good.

It'd also be interesting to know the value of the African hunts 'donated over those same six (or eleven) years, how much was raised from them at the auctions and what was done with that money?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Nelson - Sir, thank you for that. I sincerely look forward to seeing how to date, the $1million has been specifically utilized?? Certainly the Lion needs it now, more than ever!

As a side note - could you possibly get an answer to this question for me too?

Despite pleas from all angles including the scientific community as the most prevalent - why when asked to adopt the "Huntable Lion Definition", which is nothing more than a conservation minded guideline, did SCI not only refuse to do so, but refused to either create one of their own, or at the very least take some sort position in the matter period??

To date, I've seen nothing at all that represents the position of SCI - as it pertains to what they believe is good lion hunting practices, that they "recommend" to their members (both hunters/PH's and Outfitters) when participating in a "Wild" Lion hunting Safari? A guideline, a definition, something with substance that says - here's how we see it, and here's what we are recommending to our members. In fact, I know the USFWS was and still is greatly concerned that SCI - the organization they consider the biggest hunter/conservation group in the world was not willing to adopt the original definition that was in fact co-authored by who is considered most of the World's Leading Scientists in the field of the African Lion? Even more concerning to the USFWS was the fact that SCI did not either produce a guideline/definition of their own, or at the very least take a real conservation minded, well thought out position in the matter either? I think they, and the rest of us were certainly hoping for an expecting a lot more from the biggest organization in the world that is "First for Hunters".

Again, a sincere thank you for your time/effort in this matter. I for one, do greatly appreciate it.

Regards,

Aaron,

You have to look at SCI as an advocacy organization. They are not and should not be in the business of police matters if you will. If it is legal and ethical, then they should be all for it. I would not look for anything of that variety to come forward.

Jeff

This string